Live webchat with Nicholas Carr, author of The Shallows: What the Internet is Doing to Our Brains, Thurs 2 Sept, 1-2pm

[GeraldineMumsnet]

We're very pleased that Nicholas Carr is coming to Mumsnet to discuss the ideas expounded in his new book The Shallows: What the Internet is Doing to our Brains.

The book expands arguments Nicholas made in a much-discussed article in The Atlantic magazine, Is Google Making Us Stupid?

He's concerned about how the internet is affecting the way we read, think and remember. Are our brains changing in response to our online habits? And what are the implications for ourselves and our children?

Hope you can join Nicholas on Thurs 2 Sept, 1-2pm, to share your views.

And forgot to add that there are five signed copies of The Shallows up for grabs. We'll choose five names randomly from everyone who takes part in the chat.

hahahahah the shaming thing is that i couldn't even read half of that article without getting bored and coming on here. my brain KNOWS it's an interesting article but there are TOO MANY WORDS.

It's worth remembering that mass use of the written - NOT the printed - word, was also met with concern. People felt that committting words to paper would have detrimental effects on memory and congnition, in much the same way as is described in the article.

Mary Carruthers' book on this is interesting reading - though quite densely packed! The Book of Memory. My gut instinct with this - with a background in historical literacy - is to say plus ca change, tbh. Scholarship, intelligence, the ability to think and create seems to survive all technological innovations and defy the predictions of harbingers of doom, just as language constantly survives.

The internet is effecting a rise of new literacy practices, not the demise of literacy.

Aitch - me too!! Although I have to say I have always struggled to read long things on a screen. I can do little bits (like posts on mumsnet!) but I find that just cannot 'follow' a long article on a screen. Give me a paper copy though and I'm fine.

I heard someone once describe my generation (mid 30's) as the 'sesame street generation. From preschool our lives have been cut into little 5 minute slots of information (first pioneered on shows like sesame street) therefore our attention spans and ability to process information has adapted accordingly. We expect everything to be fast paced to keep our attention. So I think its not just the internet but how we live our lives - from tv through education - look at the rise of textspeak..
Sorry thats not a question - can someone frame it as one for me..

ooooh! must try and think of a worthwhile question as I feel strongly about this topic. not read the book yet, but I am currently reading Toxic Childhood by Sue Palmer which has a fair bit about the effects of the internet. excellent choice for a guest MNHQ!

I personally think I have gained in knowledge due to the internet due to the vast amount of information to hand. If I had to source info from a book I most certainly wouldn't be bothered to look it up.

Ooh, love this sort of stuff, am marking my place. Will be back after I've read the article.

Here's a thought: If pre-internet humans were said to use only 10% of our brains, is the internet lowering that percentage?

Fascinating article - much of it rang true with me. I much prefer to read the printed page than online, but love the fact that I have so much information a few clicks away!

I'd be interested to know if Nicholas has any views on what we can do for our children's generation - who are going to grow up learning to find information on the internet first rather than through traditional print - to help encourage them to pursue free and deep thinking as they get older. It's difficult to see how we can teach them the skills necessary to keep their imagination - and their ability to challenge and question - when they are so used to having everything broken up into bite size pieces for them.

Hmmm, I don't think I've phrased that very well...I might come back when I've had time to dwell on it a bit more.

I read the first 2 paragraphs of your aritcle and thought, 'oooh you must have had a child'

I think that the way research happens has changed but I STILL get lost in the written word - it's just since The Cub was born I don't have so much space to store it.

I think that your theory has validity but some of the research quoted is also a little simplistic, it's harder for me to read from a screen than from a written page and printing takes resources I'm not prepared to expend. So I'm not sure that watching how people look at information online without a huge study with lots more people can add to the conversation.

Intelligence is the product of a systemised process, it's what we do with the information once we have it that gives us our empathic connection. Or to put it another way Classic and Romantic reasoning have always been here, it's always been the ultimate goal of humanity imnsho to fuse these to ways of seeing the world, perhaps the internet will help us reach it. It is our very humanity and empathic connection to each other that stops the systemisation from running rampant. I think you've raised some excellent points but in the end it's expended energy over nothing very much. Some people will become completey systemised and switch off from humanity, some will become completely empathic and run off to join a hippy comune or ignore all information completely. The rest of us will muddle on making good use of the information we have using our empathy for one another to turn that information into ways to help ourselves and each other.

So, I guess my question is, how do you see the human race (those with regular access to the internet at least) adapting to this new technology and what changes in out society do you foresee as a result?

Can you tell what philosophical arguments swayed me most? I kinda wear them on my sleeve a bit

ThatGotQuiteDeepNormalShallowDrivelWillNowResumeTiggaxx

Fascinating article, first time I had seen it but I have thought for some time now how computers and email at work certainly alter our attention spans. For this reason I limit DD's screen time and concentrate on books and mental puzzles.

I work in a department that needs to write and read and assess long complex documents, I have to keep my attention span! Even so, I notice, that when on the net, I often don't bother waiting for a page to load if it takes more than a few seconds.

I am so concious of my shrinking attention span I have now been forcing myself to reread a great many novels, Dumas and Dickens for a start, and I find it so much more difficult than when I was younger. At university I read the whole of Paradise Lost, now I'm struggling to read Bleak House.

I am sure the quick fire TV editing and email immediacy is a contributor to this. I have started cutting my TV viewing and listening to the Radio instead.

What about things like Facebook and Twitter? People are so busy commentating on their lives, I don't see how they can actually manage to live their lives with any degree of thought or consideration.

Are schools offering lessons in "thinking" the answer?

Do we switch off email at work 3 days a week?
Do we stop texting?
Is there long term implications for our society's competitiveness in business?

This is a real issue for me.

I am currently struggling to maintain a conversation with my DH, who has had an iPhone for about 3 months. He appears to be addicted to using it (for no discernible goal or good).

He simply cannot put the it down. He attempts to hold conversations and look after our children whilst playing with it and any spare time he gets is immediately filled with iPhone activity.

I think he prefers it to real life. He has always had a short attention span and this new phone has filled the previous gap between his concentration and the demands of real life.

I still read actual books and newspapers a lot. I treat internet print as snack food IYKWIM.
But I know that the past 5 years since i went on online has profoundly affected my relationships in real life. I no longer have the patience for long phone calls. Why would i, when one hour can involve me speaking and connecting with 40 people on FB. And another 40 on twitter.

When was the last time I sat and wrote a letter to a friend? :( Gosh, i wish I hadn't started thinking about this.
Every now and again I have an electronica detox and I find my concentration and focus improves no end.

But i am an adult (and middle aged at that) and god only knows how more profound the effects on our children.
Does my son even know how to research homework from an actual book? Did he ever know?:(

Hello Nicholas,

It's an interesting theory; it could well be that that the internet turns out to be the 21st century equivalent of smoking, where we pick up on the potential for damage too late, and then can't kick the habit.

Are those of us who have only had the internet for a part of our adult lives going to be at an advantage or disadvantage in today's world, if we retain some of our old-fashioned approaches to reading and thinking?

Thanks

Do you think that we are going to lose the art of handwriting - ie putting pen to paper as a result of internet/pc usage ?

ps - my theory is never mind our concentration skills, that we are going to evolve into creatures with huge padded arses, small legs and very large (typing) fingers as we adapt to our new sedentary lifestyles...

Thanks for the interesting article link. I have to report that in our house we are all often on laptop (UCO HAS A v-TECH)

Isn't the media and government just as much to blame? Media for the way it has changed tv and newspapers by talking down to us more and more over the years and the government for going along with tit-bit method of teaching, ie they have changed childrens learning by saying they can't concentrate for long and have to have floor time and hands-on time all in snippets instead of addressing the real problem of discipline?

testing

How easy is it to learn the skill of reflection, as child or adult? Could this be taught in schools? Should it be?

I can't be bothered to read the whole article as there are about three other articles I would prefer to entertain myself with within two clicks of the mouse. I like things instant and entertaining.

However I have taken a shallow and fleeting interest in something this morning that I would not have had any access to at all without the internet. I may use it as a reason to pry ds off the playstation later.

I've just read the whole article. It's the longest single thing I've read online in months, but I was determined to get to the end. It's hard work reading anything more serious than chic-lit! I used to have a brain (I have a post-grad degree). I think I lost it slowly over the last 12 years online at home....

I have been worried for a long time now about my older children's use of the PC. They're 12 and 10 and every week most of their homework requires the use of the internet, either as a reserach tool or as a portal to the homework (maths assignments are delivered and marked online). They find it virtually impossible to focus on the task and get distracted so easily (gaming sites and the iplayer normally). It doesn't help that the pcs are in the lounge (for their own security online) and they've got two younger siblings who want to be in there playing :(

It's very diffcult to restrict screen time when it's ordered by school every night for homework.

I've waffled. Sorry! trying to form a sensible question..

What can be done to improve children's ability to think and concentrate. They already read lots (proper books, not articles online!) but what other easy and cheap things can help?

Just marking my place.

GetsACupOfTeaTiggaxx

Nicholas is here and just getting set up.

As promised we are introducing a quote facility for webchatees and Nicolas will be the first to pioneer it. All it means is that when he answers a post he can quote the question in his answer. (Don't panic we have no plans to roll out over whole site.)