Live webchat with Nicholas Carr, author of The Shallows: What the Internet is Doing to Our Brains, Thurs 2 Sept, 1-2pm

[GeraldineMumsnet]

We're very pleased that Nicholas Carr is coming to Mumsnet to discuss the ideas expounded in his new book The Shallows: What the Internet is Doing to our Brains.

The book expands arguments Nicholas made in a much-discussed article in The Atlantic magazine, Is Google Making Us Stupid?

He's concerned about how the internet is affecting the way we read, think and remember. Are our brains changing in response to our online habits? And what are the implications for ourselves and our children?

Hope you can join Nicholas on Thurs 2 Sept, 1-2pm, to share your views.

Greetings all. It's a great pleasure to be here on Mumsnet to talk about my new book, The Shallows. The book was inspired by my own experience. A few years ago, I realized that I was losing my ability to concentrate - I was finding it hard to sit down and read a book , or even a long article, for example. My mind wanted to keep behaving as it behaves when I'm online - clicking on links, jumping from page to page, checking email, Googling, and so forth. That led me to look into the psychological and neurological research about how the internet and other technologies influence the way we think. I certainly believe that the web gives us many benefits - as Mumsnet shows - but I've become convinced that our growing dependence on our gadgets is diminishing our ability - as well as our children's ability - to pay the kind of deep attention essential to contemplation, refection, and introspection.

I've read through the questions and comments already posted, which are excellent, and I look forward to discussing this topic with you.

blondnc,

The net has certainly made it easier for us to find a great deal of information that used to be hard to come by - and, like you, I'm immensely grateful for that. But gathering information is only the first step in a process of thought. The second step is thinking deeply, and attentively, about the information we've found. It's the act of paying concentrated attention that leads to much of our most interesting and valuable conceptual and creative thinking - and that's where the net is more hindrance than help, I fear.

I used to write, but now I tweet. It is the final nail in the coffin of my brain. My every thought is expressed in fewer than 140 characters.

Thankyou for a very thought-provoking webchat, Nicholas. I hope they have made you some cake.

@BitOfFun

I hope they have made you some cake.

Just sandwiches so far.

I've dropped out of Twitter - which, like cake, proved too hard to resist.

I love the fact that you can check things on the eb-some youngsters though seem to think there is no point actually knowing anything as the web is there wth all the info. This is very lazy.

Hi Nicholas.
I am a complete information junkie which comes from being a bookworm. It has got steadily worse since I got my iPhone.
At the same time, I find it very difficult to remember information (even people's names) when previously I was very sharp. Are the two linked or could the latter just be 'baby brain?'

Apologies for my terible typing. I used to check-thats another eect of quickfire media!

@Miggsie

I am so concious of my shrinking attention span I have now been forcing myself to reread a great many novels, Dumas and Dickens for a start, and I find it so much more difficult than when I was younger.

Miggsie,

Like you, I've been struggling to read books and long articles, which has been frustrating as I've always loved reading. Psychological studies show that people crave new information. If given the choice, we'll usually grab a new bit of fresh information, even if it's trivial, rather than stay focused on an important piece of information that we already have. That's why, I think, that the net is so good at interrupting us - it gives us an endless supply of fresh information to sample. We're not going to turn off the net, nor would we want to, but if we value deep reading and other attentive ways of thinking we need to moderate our use of the new technologies. Which is easier said than done, of course.

Nicholas, do you mind me asking whether you have children? And if so, do you 'police' their time online, encourage them to read books etc - ie do you practise what you preach .

I'm also really interested in the answer to theboobmeister's question about whether you can 'learn' reflection. Thanks.

@PaulineCampbellJones

I find it very difficult to remember information (even people's names) when previously I was very sharp. Are the two linked or could the latter just be 'baby brain?'

Our ability to remember something hinges on our ability to pay attention to it. If we're constantly distracted or juggling different jobs, facts and experiences slip quickly from our mind before they've had a chance to be "consolidated" (as psychologists say) as long-term memories. Those distractions may come from many sources (a fussy baby, for example) but one of the biggest sources these days is the mobile, the computer, and other networked devices. The net tends to make the existing distractions in our lives all the more distracting - to the detriment of our memory.

@personanongrata

Nicholas, do you mind me asking whether you have children?

I have two kids, but one is 20 and the other is 25 and both are off at school. So I don't have much ability to police them anymore. But when they were at home, my wife and I did restrict their time on the computer, and we withheld mobile phones for as long as we could - much to their dismay.

@personanongrata

I'm also really interested in the answer to theboobmeister's question about whether you can 'learn' reflection. Thanks.

Yes, that was a good question. I think some people are more naturally inclined toward being reflective than others. But I do believe you can train people to be more focused and more attentive - and more able to filter out the distractions that are always coming at them. If you do that, then I think you will give many more people an aptitude for reflectiveness and, in general, more meditative ways of thinking.

I am terrible at reading stories on the internet -even if I'm really interested I just scan them. How do you make yourself read things properly?

@Spacehoppa

I am terrible at reading stories on the internet -even if I'm really interested I just scan them. How do you make yourself read things properly?

Spacehoppa,

I've gone back to reading stories - at least those I want to read in full - in printed form. The great thing about the printed page is that there's nothing else going on - just the words. Whenever you're looking at a screen, though, you're always just a click away from a different page or your email inbox or the latest update from a Facebook friend. It's very hard to resist shifting your gaze away from the story.

sorry to nag I waffled so much, perhaps you missed my question!

What can be done to improve children's ability to think and concentrate. They already read lots (proper books, not articles online!) but what other easy and cheap things can help?

Hi Nicholas,
I have just completed an English degree and one of my modules of study was the History of the Book. The final lecture of the module was dedicated to speculation that books will disappear.

Do you believe that this will happen?

I cannot imagine a world without books, but my eldest (6) is already pretty competent on a computer and will read with ease from the internet.

I just don't think you can beat the feeling of a physical book!

@SparkyMalarky

I'd be interested to know if Nicholas has any views on what we can do for our children's generation - who are going to grow up learning to find information on the internet first rather than through traditional print - to help encourage them to pursue free and deep thinking as they get older.

SparkyMalarky,

The question of how we ensure that our children develop the ability to pay attention, to filter out distractions, is extremely important. I think we, as parents and educators, are often too quick to equate technology with the quality of education. We need, of course, to train children to use computers and the net wisely, and to make the most of the information available online, but we also need to ensure that they know how to read deeply and engage in calm, solitary thought. That requires turning off the computer and the mobile and the iPad and the Xbox.

@bumpybecky

What can be done to improve children's ability to think and concentrate. They already read lots (proper books, not articles online!) but what other easy and cheap things can help?

bumbybecky,

If they're still reading books, you're already ahead of the game. There are also other (fairly obvious) ways to encourage deep thought and concentration. One is simply to make sure that kids have time during the day to be alone with their thoughts. Obviously, being social is extremely important, but with texting and Facebook and other social media these days, some kids never have a chance to engage in solitary thinking. Having long conversations about complicated subjects is also important to developing critical and creative thinking. And simply spending time outside, in a natural setting, is beneficial. There are fascinating studies showing that time in nature (even just looking at pictures of calm nature scenes!) can help refresh our minds and restore our ability to concentrate.

@nowit

The final lecture of the module was dedicated to speculation that books will disappear. Do you believe that this will happen?

nowit,

I don't think books are going away - at least not any time soon. But I do think that electronic books are going to become increasingly popular. In America, sales of e-books are rising very quickly while sales of printed books are stagnant. More and more people are reading books on Kindles and iPads. While I think it's better to read an e-book than no book at all, I don't think the experience of reading on screen is the same as reading on a real printed page.

@Habbibu

It's worth remembering that mass use of the written - NOT the printed - word, was also met with concern. People felt that committting words to paper would have detrimental effects on memory and congnition, in much the same way as is described in the article.

You're right to point out that new technologies often spur fears for the future (just as they spur dreams of impending utopia). But surely the arrival of the alphabet did result in deep changes in the way people think, and surely our ancestors lost a few valuable capabilities thanks to the alphabet even as they gained a great many others. I think the same is true of the internet. We are improving our ability to shift our focus quickly and to juggle many tasks, but we are sacrificing our talents for quieter, more focused ways of thinking. Language, too, is changing - and not necessarily for the better! - as we shift from reading and writing on pages to reading and writing on screens.

scrappydappydoo,

I agree with you that our attention spans have been shrinking for a long time now. The trend didn't begin with our modern computing gadgets, but it has accelerated as those gadgets have come to supply us with a steady stream of info-bits: emails, texts, tweets, Facebook updates, and so on. Unfortunately, I see no sign of this trend abating (not least because some of the largest internet companies are competing to inundate us with ever more and ever smaller messages).

@dawntigga

Intelligence is the product of a systemised process, it's what we do with the information once we have it that gives us our empathic connection. Or to put it another way Classic and Romantic reasoning have always been here, it's always been the ultimate goal of humanity imnsho to fuse these to ways of seeing the world, perhaps the internet will help us reach it.

dawntigga,

Your suggestion that we need to keep a balance between the rational and emotional sides of our minds in balance is a good one. I fear that net continues a long-term shift in society that places ever greater emphasis on efficiency and short-term problem solving and ever less emphasis on more meditative and open-ended ways of thinking. Should this continue, our intellectual lives will become less balanced - and we may well become less interesting as human beings.

Big thanks to Nicholas for answering so many questions. He's also answered some of the questions that were sent in advance of the live chat and will post these up shortly.

@blondnc

I personally think I have gained in knowledge due to the internet due to the vast amount of information to hand. If I had to source info from a book I most certainly wouldn't be bothered to look it up.

The net has certainly made it easier for us to find a great deal of information that used to be hard to come by - and, like you, I'm immensely grateful for that. But gathering information is only the first step in a process of thought. The second step is thinking deeply, and attentively, about the information we've found. It's the act of paying concentrated attention that leads to much of our most conceptual and creative thinking - and that's where the net is more hindrance than help.

@StarlightMcKenzie

There is too much information now in the world for anyone to remember. Our brains are working harder than ever imo, but rather than remembering things and retain we now problems solve and research. I think this is an improvement.

Starlight,

You suggest that remembering things isn't so important now that we can quickly Google any fact on the web. I actually disagree with you here. Studies show that the more we have in our own memory - facts, experiences, concepts - the easier it becomes to learn new things. So if we rush to "outsource" our memory to the internet, we're going to lose a very important foundation of knowledge and wisdom.