Archaeologists are DNA testing some bones they've found to see if they might be the remains of Richard III. Are there any other members of the Royal Family....

[seeker]

where DNA testing might produce interesting results?

Apparently, she was in Clarence's care and was hidden/escaped in a cookshop.

The story (iirc) was that once Prince Edward was killed in 1471, she was taken prisoner by the Duke of Clarence. She escaped and hid in a cookshop as a servant. Richard found her and took her to safety in a church (I cant remember the name), and they were married soon after.

Didn't Clarence make her his ward or something similar after Warwick died, so he could control what happened to all the Neville wealth and lands?

I always feel a great deal of pity for Isabelle Neville who really does seem to have been a pawn in her father and the husband's games. At least Anne finally got to marry the love of her life, supposedly.

Oh, I've just had a bit of a moment checking my fact before my last post to you Saggy
There's no record of Eleanor ever having any contact with her daughters to the King of France, but one of those daughters, Alix, had a daughter (also called Alix) who became abbess of Fontevrault Abbey, a place famously beloved by Eleanor and the place she was buried. Perhaps she did know her grandaughter?

St Martin The Grand.

Was it St Martins in the Fields, Vagaceratops?

Ah yes, Saggy. That's the one.

Google is my friend!

The novels are mostly off-beam here. Hicks' Clarence again: both Anne and Isabel were effectively disinherited by Warwick's attainder. All his estates came into the hands of the Crown on Edward's recovery of power.

The estates came in two parts, the Neville patrimony, which but for the attainde would have gone to the next male Neville, and the Beauchamp lands, which had come to Warwick through his countess and would have gone to Isabel and Anne. Edward rewarded Clarence's renewed allegiance by granting him the whole of the Beauchamp lands. Richard was granted the Neville patrimony.

So there isn't any question of Anne being entitled to the Beauchamp/Neville lands per se; they were in Edward's gift. Clarence was right in asserting that the lands were legally his as a royal grant, and that Richard was seeking to upset a legal and reasonable settlement by pursing Anne (and he already had the Neville lands anyway, but evidently wanted more).

There is a story in a contemporary chronicle that Clarence and Isabel disguised Anne as a kitchenmaid in their own London home to stop Richard from getting to her. The "disguise" bit sounds a bit unlikely to me (he had known her for years, he would recognise her) but hiding her in an unlikely part of the house doesn't sound implausible.

Which non-fiction book about Edward/Richard would people recommend?

I love the novels but I would like to have a better grasp of the truths/facts behind them.

My parents' house is on Neville land and their deeds say that if certain things (oil, IIRC) are discovered underneath, they belong to the Nevilles. It surprised me they were still so powerful.

Are they direct descendants of Warwick, then LRD? I assumed the lands would have been redistributed after George/Isabel and Richard/Anne's deaths as there were no male heirs. My knowledge is Richard Neville's family tree is non-existant.

I don't know exactly, but there's at least one cadet branch (Nevilles of Hornby, as opposed to Nevilles of Raby) kicking around since the thirteenth century or so, so I imagine it could well be that or another cadet branch.

Aww, how awesome is this?! I just looked and there's a 'Balderick' in the early bit of the Neville of Raby family line. Love it.

I wonder if Balderick Neville smelled of turnips .

What happened to George Neville, the other brother? I know about John but not George.

And on a slightly different note, Dunham Massey in Cheshire is a stately home with links to the Woodville Greys. I can't remember the exact link but I think it's to do with Elizabeth's older sons who are somewhere in the same family tree as Lady Jane Grey and another Thomas Grey who signed Charles I's death warrant. There's a portrait of Elizabeth hanging in one of the rooms which I assume does not do her justice at all. Either that or they had a very different idea of beauty in those days - she's very sharp faced in it.

Or, if he had a thingy shaped like a turnip?!

This has got to be the best Mumsnet thread ever!

I saw the surname Butler mentioned further upthread, I wonder how many of you know that Ann Boleyn's paternal grandmother was Margaret Butler, a direct descendant of Edward 1, through his daughter Elizabeth, who married Humphrey de Bohun. So Henry V111 and Ann were distant cousins, but I think her line of descent was more direct than his.

According to a fairly well documented family history, I am a descendant of the Boleyns, through Edward Boleyn, youngest brother of Ann's father Thomas. Edward's daughter Elizabeth Boleyn (my ancestor) was 16 years younger than her cousin Ann, but reading between the lines I think my branch of the family distanced themselves from Ann in the time leading up to her execution. If any of you very knowledgeable people know anything about what happened to Edward Boleyn, I'd be very grateful as we've never found any record of his death.

I'd recommend The Assassin's Wife, by Moonyeen Blakely. I saw it recommended on Facebook, as it was written by a former English teacher at my school. It's long, and there a few bits where the continuity wasn't edited too well, but a very interesting perspective - it's written from the view of a woman accused of witchcraft who's trying to save the princes in the tower. She also paints Anne Neville as a strong, scheming woman.

Have just ordered a few of the books mentioned here. My mum has loads of Jean Plaidy books, and I loved reading these a teenager.

Just told my husband about this thread. We used to live in Leicester, now live in Australia, and he wants to go and look at the site when we're back there on holiday in a fortnight.

This has to be my most favourite ever Mumsnet thread.

I wish I had the same knowledge bank as you mumsnetters.

MadBus, and katieScarlett, thanks for replying to Signy. She's a terrific Wars of the Roses history buff and wanted to post herself. We will see you all on the new thread; excitement very high here...

Sieglinde Good for her! I warn you, being a WotR fan is how I started out too. Then I had to do two degrees in it

Oh, and lady D, George Neville - brother of Warwick - became Archbishop of York. There's a record of the incredible stonkering feast given for his investiture.

CarriMarie How exciting! :)

I don't know if you know The Anne Boleyn Files? The people running that site are pretty knowledgable and really get their teeth into research on anything Boleyn related. Might be worth an ask? I used to post there a lot.

Site here

sieg - new thread? Are we bunking off somewhere else? Wars of the Roses history buff-ery is great stuff.

carri - that is very cool! If that was me I'd be sleughing it out if I could. I don't know anything about him, except his wife's family are keen on their books, so I wonder if there's a family Book of Hours with dates of death in it that no-one has looked at? It seems she was widowed so she might have recorded it.

I did know about the distant cousin thing (smug ), but only because my lovely history teacher had a soft spot for Tudor women but didn't like Henry, and pointed out all the legal dodginesses of his dealings with both Mary and Anne.

There seems to be (unsupported) suggestion he died around 1530, so if that's true, you'd imagine Anne (Boleyn, not Tempest), might record it and there are three of her Books of Hours extant. Two are at Hever castle, and one at the BL. Kings MS 9 at the BL has a description that doesn't mention annotation in the calendar, but they don't always.

Or his brothers/sisters/daughters/wife might have written it down.