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Campaign to end Bounty sales reps' access to maternity wards - please read and share

866 replies

JustineMumsnet · 11/06/2013 22:16

Evening all,

Thanks to all of you who have taken the time to fill in our survey on Bounty and share your stories - from the initial idea onwards, this really is a campaign that has been prompted by your concerns, as posted on Mumsnet.

The survey showed that a very large majority (82%) felt it was unacceptable for Bounty sales reps to be on hospital wards, as well as highlighting a number of other concerns about Bounty reps' selling practices, so we're calling on government to end this kind of direct selling/data collecting on NHS wards. See more here.

It's clear, from the survey results, that, even after Bounty updated its code of conduct (these results only include users who gave birth from May 2012 - the full results containing prior data are here) its practices leave a lot to be desired, and that Mumsnet users feel very strongly that the maternity ward is no place for a hard sell, so we're really hoping that government will listen to us.

Here's how you can help...

Please sign the petition

If you're on Twitter please tweet your support for the campaign with the hashtag #bountymutiny and the following link:

tiny.mn/1bsnpNw

If you're on Facebook then please like campaign page our campaign page (there's a FB link to click at the top on the left).

If you're on Google+, well, you'll know what to do.

We'll, of course, keep you posted here about the campaign and any developments. Thanks to everyone for their stories, honesty and input. Here's hoping we can make a difference!

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 22/06/2013 17:06

More from The Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008

Definition 1
?professional diligence? means the standard of special skill and care which a trader may reasonably be expected to exercise towards consumers which is commensurate with either?
(a) honest market practice in the trader?s field of activity, or
(b) the general principle of good faith in the trader?s field of activity;

Definition 2
?materially distort the economic behaviour? means in relation to an average consumer, appreciably to impair the average consumer?s ability to make an informed decision thereby causing him to take a transactional decision that he would not have taken otherwise;

Regulation 8 linky
8.?(1) A trader is guilty of an offence if?
(a)he knowingly or recklessly engages in a commercial practice which contravenes the requirements of professional diligence under regulation 3(3)(a); and
(b)the practice materially distorts or is likely to materially distort the economic behaviour of the average consumer with regard to the product under regulation 3(3)(b).

(2) For the purposes of paragraph (1)(a) a trader who engages in a commercial practice without regard to whether the practice contravenes the requirements of professional diligence shall be deemed recklessly to engage in the practice, whether or not the trader has reason for believing that the practice might contravene those requirements.

Regulation 3 linky
3.?(1) Unfair commercial practices are prohibited.

(2) Paragraphs (3) and (4) set out the circumstances when a commercial practice is unfair.

(3) A commercial practice is unfair if?
(a)it contravenes the requirements of professional diligence; and
(b)it materially distorts or is likely to materially distort the economic behaviour of the average consumer with regard to the product.

(4) A commercial practice is unfair if?
(a)it is a misleading action under the provisions of regulation 5;
(b)it is a misleading omission under the provisions of regulation 6;
(c)it is aggressive under the provisions of regulation 7; or
(d)it is listed in Schedule 1.

Are Bounty operating in good faith, honestly and with professional diligence? Either knowingly or unknowingly?

Food for thought on that: If Bounty are knowingly or unknowingly operating in a way that leads women to believe that they are part of the NHS or in someway affiliated to the NHS or/and be unaware that they are commercial company who are collecting personal details for financial gain or marketing are they materially distorting behaviour? Are they being professionally diligent and are they acting within the principle of good faith in the trader's area of activity?

(Note: I'm not entirely sure what the 'trader's area of activity relates to - it could be simply marketing, but it could be the fact they operate on a maternity ward where other staff are subject to ethical behaving in the best interests of the patient and the expectation of patients would be that they would also act in the same way. It'd be interesting to know. I personally hope it refers to the later, and I think that perhaps it does)

Either way I'm really liking the sound of the 'knowingly or unknowingly' and the stuff about 'whether or not the trader has reason for believing'...

Legal bods, please correct me if I'm wrong but surely this theoretically means that, if there is significant evidence to suggest that there is widespread confusion happening over whether Bounty are acting in a commercial way or whether they are part of the NHS because of blurred boundaries going on, whether or not this is intentional on the part of Bounty should be irrelevant and this would be down to their lack of professional diligence to ensure this was occurring. There wouldn't be a need to prove intent; merely that there is sufficient confusion that is affecting behaviour of patients customers.

(Btw I saw the idea about crowdfunding legal action on twitter made by a certain Mr Goldacre. I think its an excellent suggestion)

HairyWorm · 23/06/2013 01:09

I'm due in 2 months and had planned to just write NO BOUNTY on my Birth Plan, but from what I've read this might not ensure I'm left alone and I'm not sure that Birth Plan will be looked at post birth anyway.

My hospital has a patient liaison service and I'm wondering whether it's worth emailing to them to confirm what procedures are in place for patients who do not wish to be approached by sales reps whilst recovering from birth.

Anyone have any thoughts/suggestions on email content and any other ideas on how to avoid Bounty? I do not want to have to make a scene or put up a sign that will make me self-conscious on a shared ward. I just want to be left alone to concentrate on Baby, me and DH and not be on my guard that I'm going to be mithered.

humptyfront · 23/06/2013 09:02

Just seen this fantastic thread. I've signed the change.org petition, but don't use fb or twitter, what else can i do to support?

Due in 8 weeks so i'll be making a couple of laminated 'no bounty rep' signs to take with me...

SuffolkNWhat · 23/06/2013 09:04

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

RedToothBrush · 23/06/2013 10:25

If anyone is afraid that this is not being/going to be respected to the point that you feel the need that you have to speak to patient liaison, make sure you have this little beauty up your sleeve when you do:

Article 8 of the Human Rights Act
Right to respect for private and family life
1 Everyone has the right to respect for his private and family life, his home and his correspondence.
2 There shall be no interference by a public authority with the exercise of this right except such as is in accordance with the law and is necessary in a democratic society in the interests of national security, public safety or the economic well-being of the country, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.

If people start quoting this to hospital staff, pointing out they have a legal obligation to uphold their rights and concern for privacy, I do think they would have to be pretty bloody stupid to question it, or not respect your wishes. Hopefully it will give you something with a little clout to backup your request, and stop them phobing you off with excuses as to why they can't do it. Technically, I believe they HAVE to, whether they like it or not.

Given the current climate and atmosphere where hospitals are under scrutiny for cover ups and not protecting patients, they should be on their guard for stuff like this.

SuffolkNWhat, letters to those hospitals are coming along, but slowly. Trouble is, since they seem to be that thick and ignorant, having to write definitions, quote legalities (of which there does seem to be several problematic areas) and just generally point out just how bad their responses are is proving somewhat time consuming. I want to get it right, cover everything and in so far as possible, make it as damn difficult as possible to ignore or wriggle out of. I'm already at 3 pages and I fear it could end up three times that at the rate I'm going.

RedToothBrush · 23/06/2013 11:07

Anyone care to comment on a tweet made by Dr Christian Jessen ‏2hrs ago?

‏^@DoctorChristian^
@GoodDr @BelindaCEO_NCT hmmm, not sure all NCT info is totally balanced and I'm sure much anti-Bounty propaganda 'encouraged' by them!

Propaganda? Or pointing out major flaws which are potential legal issues and safeguarding issues which NEED to be addressed rather than just brushed under the carpet as silly woman getting all worked up and hysterical because of the actions of the NCT?

Twat.

SuffolkNWhat · 23/06/2013 11:18

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

RedToothBrush · 23/06/2013 11:35

Not me who set up the facebook page.

Think the idea of cover cards is brilliant. It not only makes the point to staff, but also increases awareness to other women who might not know about the issues.

RedToothBrush · 23/06/2013 11:41

Just throwing another thought out there, which may be completely incorrect.

I've just read some stuff on Which's website which says:

The CPRs in practice
If a trader is accused of misleading consumers or acting aggressively, it's not enough to simply demonstrate the activity.

It also has to be shown that the practice influenced the consumer's decision.

This doesn't necessarily mean that the consumer has to have entered into a contract, just that their actions were influenced in some way.

It could be enough that the consumer phoned the trader or decided to go into their shop.

If women were being mislead in someway because of this strange relationship between Bounty and the NHS and mistakenly thought that because the NHS was 'endorsing' Bounty and therefore what they were doing had been thoroughly vetted and found acceptable, and this led them to not complain about the way they operated, would this mean that the practice had influenced the consumer's decision?

RedToothBrush · 23/06/2013 11:57

Ok, now I'm really getting angry.

Kirstie Mary Allsopp @KirstieMAllsopp 13m
@rosy1982 @BelindaCEONCT @DoctorChristian I think perhaps the NCT should look to itself before being so fast to criticise Bounty.

Dr Christian Jessen @DoctorChristian 6m
@KirstieMAllsopp @rosy1982 @BelindaCEONCT I think perhaps they should too!

Now, there was me thinking this wasn't about Bounty v the NCT or Bounty v MN or Bounty v anyone else.

The issue is about whether what Bounty is doing is ethical, exploitative and fully within the law.

I have concerns over some things that the NCT encourage; however it does not necessarily make them wrong to point out the problems with the practices of other groups. In fact I think that is entirely the point of having various representative groups; to make sure that others are behaving in the best interests of the people they represent. MN have run debates over the behaviour of the NCT before.

If Ms Allsopp wishes to criticise this campaign, I think perhaps she should do so on its merits or lack of them, rather than because she had a personal grudge match going on with the NCT.

It makes her and Dr Christian both look like twats as neither seems to have looked an inch beyond the surface of what this is about.

RedToothBrush · 23/06/2013 12:01

Dr Christian Jessen @DoctorChristian 29s
1) Sorry, but I'm yet 2b convinced Bounty issue is quite as big a problem as it has been made out to be in the face of mothers suffering PND

SuffolkNWhat · 23/06/2013 12:01

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

RedToothBrush · 23/06/2013 12:14

Dr Christian Jessen ‏@DoctorChristian 7m
2) ...suffering PND after being bullied into breast feeding when they can't or wen they chose not to. This offends me far more.

Dr Christian Jessen ‏@DoctorChristian 7m
3) but what do I know? I'm only a man, right? I have no say in this issue.

But Dr Christian of course you have a say, because its not just about women, its about the fact that hospitals are not even considering the potential for financial abuse, the problems with allowing access to patients from commercial companies and the issues over a right to privacy.

I'm sure these are important issues to you when you are in hospital. Just because you'll never end up in a maternity ward doesn't mean you shouldn't be concerned or have an opinion.

And the issues of the NCT and how they offend you, are nothing to do with this issue. Make a campaign about that if you wish. But don't try and undermine another campaign which is trying to assert patient rights and issues over influencing new mothers by point scoring.

ICBINEG · 23/06/2013 13:07

What an utter pile of wank there...as if anyone elses business activities or otherwise have ANYTHING to do with the bad practise we are currently campaigning about.

Do worse things happen in the world than people being exposed to marketing in the hours post birth? Yes of course. Does that mean it should be allowed/sponsored by the government? BIG FAT NO!

HairyWorm · 23/06/2013 13:22

I think Dr Christian had already made his mind up. For me the difference between NCT and Bounty is that NCT provide support services such as antenatal classes, support groups groups and BF advice. They don't approach new mums to collect personal details, sell photos and hand over bags of crap.. but that's just my own opinion. I know some people have an issue with NCT

But, it's not a Bounty v NCT issue.

I'm sure I recall watching an embarrassing bodies where he suggested that a lady with small breasts would have difficulty breast feeding. I have since been reliably informed that is bollocks.

HorryIsUpduffed · 23/06/2013 14:14

NCT has many, many, many faults including IME data protection fuckups but is at heart a charity offering services to parents, not a commercial enterprise offering data to other commercial companies Hmm

Queen0fFeckingEverything · 23/06/2013 14:36

Can someone link to the FB campaign page? I can't find it! Ta Smile

Winstonsma · 23/06/2013 21:30

it's not that bad, you don't have to sign up to anything. I certainly never bought any of the pics. Just say no, it's not that hard!
some people buy and love their pics and might not have another opportunity to get this done so quickly with a newborn. Let the NHS keep their wee fee. x

courgetteDOTcom · 24/06/2013 01:11

Winston, there's posts here, did you read beyond the title?

Dr Christian is a twit, to be polite! anything to do with reproduction and his opinions leave meShock Hmm Confused ! The mean part of me wants to make a comment about it not being something he'd understand but I'd hate to tie him with many more lovely men who don't need a hetro relationship to not be a twit about women and reproduction.

That stupid pair made me really angry on Hotel last year.

The complaints I've seen about NCT always seem to be towards individuals, I've never seen anything bad personally or even others complaints when you break it down about them as an organisation. They certainly don't do this aggressive marketing; they don't accost people in their bed; they choose their partnerships ethically; there might be some zealous NCT workers but it's not all or policy (even unofficial); and in some cases it's the perception of the parent; no one gets more pay if you have a vb or breastfeed, in fact many aren't getting paid.

I haven't seen Belinda's replies but what I've seen of her I wouldn't expect her to stoop to their level.

SuffolkNWhat · 24/06/2013 06:42

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Miisty · 24/06/2013 08:33

I worked as a community midwife and patients asked me for their bounty bags to get the freebies

JugglingFromHereToThere · 24/06/2013 09:34

"to get the freebies" ....

which are hardly generous !

Curleyhazel · 24/06/2013 12:10

Mumof4 your unsympathetic statement displays your lack of empathy, reflection and insight and makes you in my eyes completely unsuitable to be dealing with potentially vulnerable new mums and their newborn babies.

On a different note, and this has probably been mentioned before but the definition of Bounty on Wikipedia is as follows:

"Bounty may refer to:
Bounty (reward), an amount of money or other reward offered by an organization for the capture of a person or thing."

Rather a suitable name for a company whose representatives apply all manners of (dirty) tricks to capture personal details of families for their own financial gain.

SarahMumsnet · 24/06/2013 12:25

Hey everyone,

For anyone who'd like to complain directly about their own experience with Bounty, you can fill in a nice, simple form which registers your complaint with the Information Commissioner's Office, over here.

JugglingFromHereToThere · 24/06/2013 12:34

Thanks Sarah -

looking on that web page how would you suggest proceeding ....

by clicking on "how your information was handled" ?

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