Campaign to end Bounty sales reps' access to maternity wards - please read and share

[JustineMumsnet]

Evening all,

Thanks to all of you who have taken the time to fill in our survey on Bounty and share your stories - from the initial idea onwards, this really is a campaign that has been prompted by your concerns, as posted on Mumsnet.

The survey showed that a very large majority (82%) felt it was unacceptable for Bounty sales reps to be on hospital wards, as well as highlighting a number of other concerns about Bounty reps' selling practices, so we're calling on government to end this kind of direct selling/data collecting on NHS wards. See more here.

It's clear, from the survey results, that, even after Bounty updated its code of conduct (these results only include users who gave birth from May 2012 - the full results containing prior data are here) its practices leave a lot to be desired, and that Mumsnet users feel very strongly that the maternity ward is no place for a hard sell, so we're really hoping that government will listen to us.

Here's how you can help...

Please sign the petition

If you're on Twitter please tweet your support for the campaign with the hashtag #bountymutiny and the following link:

tiny.mn/1bsnpNw

If you're on Facebook then please like campaign page our campaign page (there's a FB link to click at the top on the left).

If you're on Google+, well, you'll know what to do.

We'll, of course, keep you posted here about the campaign and any developments. Thanks to everyone for their stories, honesty and input. Here's hoping we can make a difference!

Hi I'm not sure if this has been mentioned as have not read every post on this whopping thread.
I had a home birth but a few weeks later a friend (who had a hospital birth) and I were comparing notes and she showed me a green information book called "birth to five" which she had gotten on the labour ward. So I asked my health visitor for one, but she said I'd have to go to the labour ward for it.
I got the book, but I had to give my details for a bounty form that a midwife was filling in. Why? The book is produced by the local health board here (Hywel Dda) why should bounty get the details?
I'm a new parent so happy to take advice from lots of sources but why should bounty hold nhs advice to ransom?

So, I meant to say, Horry, that is how they get access to home births too, by witholding sources of advice until you give your details

That's really very wrong. You can't get an NHS publication unless you give up your details to a private data mining company?

RAGE.

The company I worked for didnt sell DM lists, it ran a website which acted as a sort of Google for lists, so you searched on there for the demographic that you want to target and it brought up the lists and the list owners.

Bounty was very very popular, second only to the "grey" lists, mainly collected from subscriptions to certain magazines that collect data on an "opt out" rather than "opt in" basis.

The difference between Bounty and the magazines is that subscribing to a magazine is voluntary, at no point is a person approached and given to understand that they have no choice but to give their details. The magazines are not officially affliated with the NHS in order to give themselves credibility.

Candy, you're fortunate. In my local hospital the curtains are always closed, drives me loopy because I find it claustrophobic and it affects the temperature in the ward. Hasn't stopped bounty yet. Most of them are there for just over office hours, every day. Even if they're nice doesn't change the ethics of it.

OhDearNigel, because they'd have to pay more in call handling and postage for the equivalent number handed out to be requested. Of course there are other options.

I don't know how many of you are aware but there are weekly competitions. My bounty lady was so pleased to see me a week later that she called my pictures up to show everyone because she had won the photography competition with them.

Alaskan, they could probably get a job with Pixie

Gerri, I'm sorry to hear about your sister. When my baby died I was kept in a special room in delivery so fortunately I never saw a bounty lady.

Horry, I'm upset you didn't post that two weeks ago when I wrote my article it beats my examples! Problem is it's so ridiculous that it's hard to find a good example!

I found it interesting at our stuffing party (putting our newsletter in envelopes) last week how many people were shocked at the article I'd written because it was the first time they'd thought about it. Proper smack in the face moment. That's how bounty are getting away with it. I'm planning on taking a copy of my article into the hospital and maybe handing it out to mums. Might even leave some newsletters in ANC as it's our patch.

I'm trying to decide if xenia's usual stirring is worth answering. I'll play.

A hospital ward is not public, especially maternity wards, there are strict rules for being there, unless you're a bounty rep! When my babies have been in NNU WE'VE not been allowed in the ward at certain times because it's data protection issue, what's the difference?

How do you think they get details of babies who were stillborn or died very early? Do you really think parents sign up in that case? It doesn't seem to be that rare sadly. whatever the company's official policy, it's not happening on the ground. Do you watch Watchdog?

From my experience private information isn't found without looking.

Bounty are in outside of visiting hours which is why you can be found however long you're in, which when as you point is not long, is worse, women barely out of delivery. My stays have been 1-7 weeks.

www.doingdata.com/data/ohkf2x/the-bounty-family-database

www.doingdata.com/data/ohkf2x/the-bounty-family-database

• Bounty processes over 1.2million membership transactions every year
• We collect and load approximately 100,000 records monthly
• We renew and update data continuously from up to 10 consumer touch points and affinity partnerships
• We validate our multi-channel data: face-to-face with our members,via offline questionnaires, over the phone and from Bounty.com
• Unlike most other data sources, there is minimal affluence or regional bias to our data

I should add that this information is freely available via the web, you just need to know where to look, and I do.

So £1,000 per month from EACH company they sell to from EACH month. Or £12,000 a year from each company. I feel sick!

I might have to edit my article, too late for me but it's doing the rounds.

Don't have time to look it up this morning before work, but can anyone compare those figures with the number of births.

I don't think the problem is restricted just to the post-natal ward tbh, but this is where it is worst. I think there are massive problems with the way they work with midwives on the antenatal ward.

How can I ensure that at no point my information - including just my name - is passed to Bounty? How can I protect my privacy and that of my child.

Thats a serious question btw.

Courgette, sorry if you've already posted it, but do you have a link to your article?

Thinking a bit more. When a Bounty rep takes data from hospital notes, even without a midwife's assistance, the hospital is in breach of principle 7 of the DPA:

"Appropriate technical and organisational measures shall be taken against unauthorised or unlawful processing of personal data and against accidental loss or destruction of, or damage to, personal data."

And if Bounty reps are being paid commission for collecting data it should be blindingly obvious to hospital management that they have an incentive to break the law.

Surely the legal liabilities faced by the hospital vastly outweigh the amounts paid by Bounty for ward access?

Just harking back to the Department of Health statement earlier in the thread, I've been sorting out my MAT B1 form this week. Under the information about SMP and Maternity Allowance it signposts you to direct.gov.uk for more information for grants, child benefit, tax credits and Child Trust Fund BUT it then states: "There is more information in your bounty pack, or ask at your ante-natal clinic."

So, an official form with an explicit reference to, and to my mind implicit endorsement of, Bounty even though they are a commercial company. Surely this normalises the relationship between ante/post natal NHS care and Bounty.

Bounty's presence at every stage of pregnancy seems to be normalised, to the extent that their being on the postnatal ward may not seem that strange to many new mothers.

I raised the Bounty issue at A/N clinic appt this morning.

Apparently, to ensure I am not visited by Mrs Bounty on p/n ward, I would need to see the mw in charge to make my wishes explicitly known and be put on the list of women Mrs Bounty is told to miss out when she does her rounds. I would need to do this for every shift, and still it would be worth having a sign. I said I thought this was rather inside-out and the mw couldn't disagree.

I will write to the supervisor of midwives copying PALS when I get a minute.

It gives me the red rage that they refer to Bounty as a 'Service'. In what way is it a service? Sadly, it seems that many many women perceive that this is what it is too. I have a close friend who is reasonably intelligent, educated and holds down a responsible job. She is not an idiot. And yet she was very keen to tell me how I should go and get my Bounty packs from Boots, get the one in hospital etc etc. I am 100% certain that she has no idea that the point of the crappy packs is not to give you freebies and help you as a new parent but to collect your details so that they can be sold for a profit. She is clueless that this is what they do. So I imagine this is a common belief for many women on the maternity ward. They are simply ignorant of Bounty's true purpose, which is why (if they come across an outwardly pleasant rep) they think Bounty is okay. Many of them I imagine think the Bounty rep is a member of NHS staff - something that many hospitals seem reluctant to discourage, judging by the link posted earlier to a hospital trust website listing the Bounty lady as staff!!!

We need more women (and men) to be made aware of the true (commercial) purposes of Bounty.

I don't at the moment, we currently only publish in print but if another branch uses it online I'll share, unless MNHQ would like to see it. think it's going to be expanded soon.

Here's a question.

Why does anyone object to Bounty taking their data without explaining, and selling it for profit?

I ask because whenever this comes up wrt online data harvesting, there's a sizeable (or perhaps just vocal) segment which screams, "OFGS WHY DO YOU EVEN CARE? IT'S JUST FOR ADVERTISING! IT DOESN'T MATTER!"

Actually there's no restriction on what that data can be sold for, advertising or otherwise.

But that aside, do people who object to Bounty data-harvesting also avoid giving their details to Facebook, and assiduously search for the opt-out box when unavoidably giving details to online retailers and estate agents, etc?

Or does it somehow feel "different" online? This is a genuine Q I've been musing for while.

Online or anywhere else you're not at your most vulnerable, you're willingly getting into a contract of some sort, it's not endorsed by your hcp or the govt. ..

have a look at the a&e analogy posted further down.

Is it just the "being bothered after birth" aspect we don't like, and actually most of us would be comfortable if Bounty just took the data straight from the hospital?

In fact, the hospital could cut out the middle-woman and just sell our names, addresses, birth dates and other non-medical data themselves. There could be an opt-out, like on websites.

Is this OK? If not, why not?

Buying the photos is a contract, yes.

But having your data harvested isn't. Most people don't twig that their data is being harvested when they join Facebook. So it's not a case that ordinarily there's full understanding and consent.

(BTW, I'm very careful about my data. But I notice many people aren't bothered.)

But that aside, do people who object to Bounty data-harvesting also avoid giving their details to Facebook, and assiduously search for the opt-out box when unavoidably giving details to online retailers and estate agents, etc?

Yep. I also dont automatically tick every box I see as not all are opt out, some are opt in. I also read T&Cs and privacy policies too!

But that aside, do people who object to Bounty data-harvesting also avoid giving their details to Facebook, and assiduously search for the opt-out box when unavoidably giving details to online retailers and estate agents, etc?

Yes. I don't use Facebook as I'm perfectly capable of sharing updates and photos with friends by email. And I always tick the opt-out box.

Yes I do opt out and actively avoid giving out my details when it is avoidable - I do have a Facebook account but I never use any apps on there as they access your info.

As another poster has said though, taking information from a newly delivered mother in a hospital, particularly where that mother has the impression that the person collecting the info is in authority/is employed by the hospital and that giving those details is compulsory/relates to their care somehow and has no idea that they are actually going to be sold for use by marketing companies is not the same as voluntarily giving your details over the internet where it is fairly obvious that they are not being required by a medical professional and will just result in endless spam.