just had a run in with the maternity ward bounty photographer

[StateofConfusion]

And having previously defended them and loved my pictures of my eldest children todays 'rep' has made me agree they need to be removed from wards!

She arrived originally before breakfast turned on the lights and opened curtains waking me and the other Mum up, then continued to talk over the peadiatrician who was checking my dd over.

Eventually she sulked off but apparently came back when I was asleep (how dare I?) Last time she came back as I'd just settled dd and was eating lunch which had just arrived.

I said No photos at the minute thanks she got most insistant that its for security reasons?? (I'm going home today) and said she'd just lean round and take them, dd was asleep on my lap in a v pillow whilst I ate. I said again, not right now I'm eating she left brochures and went off muttering quite loudly.

I'm hormonal so ofc this has upset me, but not as much as the first time mum across they way! WHY are these people allowed to just walk around a maternity ward being so fucking rude!

Its is high pressure given that someone in hospital is unable to walk away from a sales person like they would be in the street.

Any situation which puts someone in a position where they are unable to do that is highly questionable. They are therefore more likely to make decisions that they would not otherwise make purely because of the circumstances which are beyond their control.

Stick the bounty lady somewhere where she can be approached by women off the ward and I wouldn't have a problem.

Not everyone feels able to say no. The British have a reputation for being polite and not assertive about poor service even when they are unhappy; its not a stereotype without foundation.

Autumnlights. Have you read the thread and taken in what some of the posters have said? How the Bounty reps have behaved in utterly repellent and inappropriate ways when new mothers have just had an incredible difficult birth, or their babies very poorly, or indeed when they have just lost the baby?

You may think it's okay, but judging from this thread, you are one of a tiny minority who do.

What would happen if salesmen for Stanna Stairlifts were given access to wards and could give out free samples of (insert product aimed at elderly here) in return for their details. And whilst they were at it offered a service that old people might like (ooo photos of grandkids visiting for example or takeaway delivery service to the hospital).

Would you still say that the patients could just say no. Or would you have ethical questions and concerns?

If the answer is yes then why is Bounty ok?

Or the stannah salespeople were let loose on the spinal injuries ward. Appropriate?

Or what about on an oncology ward a sales rep was allowed to give out incontinence aids and pineapple juice samples. And a copy of the DLA form to complete?

I totally agree that they should only be asked for as I do think it could be high pressure sales to people who could be in no state to make an informed choice as well as the added thing that often people struggle to refuse photos when directly asked due to the emotions involved surrounding our children.

And I completely agree that some of them are utter bastards I think all the negative stories on here should have resulted in sackings and the parents being given the photos free of charge as an apology.

And the company's presence being stopped.

But we don't know that this particular employee does the negative stuff

Bounty was started by an advertising exec so I guess its progression into the data collection business is a natural extension of that.
I don't have a problem with the distribution of free samples to new mums, but it doesn't have to go hand in hand with the flogging of other goods (framey's post had me particularly open-mouthed here). Surely the hopitals have a duty of care? I had a general anaesthetic last week and they were at pains to tell me I couldn't sign any legal docs for 24 hours. It seems rather odd that after giving birth (when I m much more dazed and confused) the hospital could assist someone in getting me into debt.
I have half a mind to start a rival freebie distribution outfit with less junk paper in the pack and no data collection unless you log on when you get home and opt in...

Or the stannah salespeople were let loose on the spinal injuries ward. Appropriate?

ohh, let me think... perhaps because having a baby is supposed to be a HAPPY occasion? A good reason to be in hospital? Something you might want photographed? I agree that Bounty photographers should always be 1000% certain that the parents they approach are happy, not behind the privacy of a curtain or a closed door, are not attached to drips and whatnot, are not crying or obviously struggling, are not without their baby (no Mum should ever have to explain to a rep that her baby is in SCBU or has passed away)

@RedToothbrush

Rindercella there was a thread on this subject earlier in the year. MNHQ were asked about a campaign on it. They said they would look into it as it was clearly a massive problem that was causing a lot of distress, but clearly its not gone any further.

I guess one of the problems with that is that Bounty itself its a direct competitor to MN with its parenting forums and that maybe caused them to have a conflict of interests.

Would be interesting to know exactly why MNHQ never took the ball and ran with it as a campaign though.

Hi RedToothbrush,
We approached Bounty at the time of the last thread highlighting the strength of feeling against their activities and suggested that they should do a survey on here to find out what kind of interaction is acceptable to new mums in hospital, as well as to evaluate and improve their code of practice for photographers and feedback/complaints procedure.

They seemed interested for a bit but then came back and said they didn't think Mumsnet could provide a sufficiently "robust and relevant sample base".

They did say "please be assured that we have listened to Mumsnet members and made changes to our Code of Conduct in respect of the issues raise regarding photography and child benefit forms, and in addition we are:

? Making sure mums-to-be who?ve already joined Bounty before they have their baby (7 out of 10 join Bounty before they meet the Bounty lady in hospital) know about our Code of Conduct to so they are clear about what they expect when they meet the Bounty lady

? Contacting all mums after they return from hospital to invite them tell us about their experience - any negative feedback will be addressed

? Considering a consultation with hospitals about whether we can introduce a sign to hang on beds/curtains to indicate whether mums would like to be visited by the Bounty lady."

It does seem, however, from this thread that they have some way to go so we'd be happy to give some further thought about how we might encourage them to address some of the problems. Do let us know if you have some ideas on how to proceed.

autumn have you even read the rest of the thread? If it was simply a case of "would you like a picture?" "no" "fine thank you bye", no one would have an issue.

But, sadly from the thread, its not always like that. I honestly thought I was in a minority with my experience but clearly not.

Whilst there are probably some nice people who work for the company, do what they are asked and are courteous, there are, of course, going to be those who aren't. Every career is like that, there are good or bad wherever you go, that's just human nature. They are self managed when they are on these wards.

I think the NHS needs to monitor them a lot more to make sure shocking things aren't done or said. Women who have had a bad birth experience resulting in complications, prematurity or death should be strictly off limits. (That also goes hand in hand with my feeling it should be a given that women in these situations should not be forced onto the maternity ward with the babies). They also need to be transparent in what they gain from it.

Also, Bounty, as a massive company, needs to exercise better management of the people it employs. There should be a strict aspect to walking off with babies (that just leaves mums open to baby snatching frankly). The fact that the packs have gone from a freebie filled with great sized products to a plastic bag with a tea bag and a load of sales bumpf and a pushy sales pitch for photos shows that they have perhaps forgotten their original ideology and now its just about the money from selling photos to selling details. A case of "too big for their boots"?

Giving birth, whether it goes how it should or not, is a stressful time, where the last thing you need is snarky comments and pressure sales. The same with MWs who can be rude and ignorant and thus should be retrained, these photographers, the one's I class as the "Bounty Bitches" should just be sacked immediately for lying or causing upset.

Yes Fellowship, I've read the thread.

All of it.

autumnlights12 - I would say if you're still in hosptial and not just realised after a couple of hours, that's a sign you've not had a straight forward birth - so while it's a happy time that you have a new baby, it's also a pretty good sign that either you or your DC are ill and recovering from a non-straight forward birth. these days it's not normal to keep the "easy birth" woman in - any friends who've had a birth like that have been home within a few hours.

anyone in long enough for the bounty woman to bother them come round has obviously had a birth that requires some recovery.

You can both be happy you have had a child and also very very ill yourself.

In that case autumn and in response to your idea that "birth is a happy experience and people may want photos". Yep, they do.

But the mass majority of us
a) own a camera
b) own a camera phone
c) are shattered
d) don't want someone to annoy the shit out of us with lies.

Double that if they are in my position.

Thanks JustineMumsnet its good to know where this is up to and that you have been on the ball with it.

That does give food for thought and a bit of direction.

Autumn: it's wrong. You know it is.

Justine, thank you. That is all very interesting.

I personally think that a consultation should be started with the NHS to decide whether there is a need for Bounty reps to be on maternity wards at all.

Why should anyone but a HCP have access to you?

Also, why is it ok for bounty staff to wander around outside of visiting hours without supervision? Even if they are continued to be allowed on wards, I'd want one to be supervised at all times by a member of hospital staff.

They aren't hosptial staff, they aren't family of the baby, why are they allowed to be alone with other people's children at all?

If the NHS was forced to pay someone to walk round with any non-staff member accessing paitents outside of visiting hours you might find they aren't quite so keen on them.

And i also think even telling a non-family member and non-NHS staff member that someone's lost a baby or their DC is sick is not a good thing, that in itself would be considered a breech of the woman's/child's data protection. Why is it ok for them to provide this information to a company rep at all?

Thanks JustineMumsnet.

I think one of the suggestions is very good and would solve a lot of problems-

"Introduce a sign to hang on beds/curtains to indicate whether mums would like to be visited by the Bounty lady."

If this was an opt in system i.e. mum's had to display a sign to indicate they were interested in order to be approached and no sign meant they couldnt be approached, I think that would be even better.

It is no surprise to me that Bounty have only said they are considering having a consultation about doing this, as that doesnt really mean doing anything, but if this could be made into a more concrete action I think it would be a big step forward.

ok, I'm clearly in the minority.
For the record, I did have a difficult birth- pre eclampsia, ventouse.. and was still happy to take the Bounty bag and have a photo. Clearly I'm odd for doing that.

It was specifically mentioned earlier in the year to employees that it had been brought to their attention the inappropriate practices of, saying photos are for security purposes and having the cb form was dependant on taking the details. They made it clear in no uncertain terms this was a stackable offence (I had no knowledge of either of these things being done in my region) I believe that was a direct result of hearing the feedback from here.

I sincerely hope the people who did hear either of these that it was over 6 months ago and they are recounting from a while back?

Should also have added, the best case senario for me would be to see them go altogether, rather than making compromises like this, but I accept that it might be easier to at least get mums some protection within the current arrangements rather than get shut of them.

Dontbeatmeup, did you mention that last night? That there had been specific guidelines given as to best practices and that bad practices would be a sackable offence? If not, it seems odd that you didn't. I seem to remember reading that you were shocked such things went on and that you'd never heard of these things happening? I might be wrong though.

Just read a few posts sorry, I have always thoguth of bounty as a bit of a joke, easy way to get free nappy cream but I am horrified and would back any petitiion to ban them

I have a problem with Bounty reps being on the wards at all. In a room just outside the locked ward, fine. But absolutely not in a supposedly secure maternity ward. If there's just an opt in/out sign at the end of the bed, then the reps are still free to roam the wards, overhearing all sorts of personal and confidential information.

I don't like it one bit and think the practice needs to end.