Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Mumsnet campaigns

For more information on Mumsnet Campaigns, check our our Campaigns hub.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Stop the Abolition of DLA

874 replies

Glitterknickaz · 16/01/2011 13:19

The government are proposing to get rid of DLA in favour of PIP. full consultation here

Riven started a fantastic thread in Chat with the very pertinent point that this applies to everyone, that every one of us could be just one step from disability themselves.

There is NOTHING in the media about this. These proposals could mean poverty for the disabled and their families in this country. It could leave some in residential care completely isolated from their families and support networks through the removal of the mobility component.

My family has already been hit three times through the NHS, education and aiming high, via the cuts, if they now remove the money from our pockets we are going to be in a heat or eat situation.

Please MNHQ do something, as many are oblivious to these proposals and what they will mean, including those who themselves already claim DLA.

OP posts:
buzzyB · 21/01/2011 00:30

Glitterknickaz said

Yes, but what about increased living expenses - ie utilities like electricity and water due to continence issues? I use DLA to meet those and having all the correct equipment wouldn't help with those bills.

What about all the clothing that gets wrecked? Or would that be supplied direct from SS?

I also have issues with direct supply, the continence service is supposed to do this but limits you to 3 per day and one for night despite this not being fit for purpose.

Different disabilities need the money spending differently. Surely the way DLA is structured now enables the disabled individual to control for themselves how their needs are provided for?

We don't get direct payments, respite or even emotional support tbh, I pay for that myself. This is with three disabled children.

If your living benefits were increased this would pay for your increased utility bills, clothing and such and I'm not talking about equipment as that is the domain of the OT's. What Im talking about is an increase in the benefits required for living costs based on the applicable ammount and then talking provision of funding for dissability needs away from the benefits system and passing the money currently provided for some who need it but not to all through to disabled people proportionate to those who need it.

Sorry if this upsets you but I just don't think that - bassed on my observations - some people should be in a position where they can save their DLA payments as savings whilst other people who may have a greater need get sod all. It's clear that HMG's proposals for reform are very wide of the mark and just a shameful cost cutting excercise and I think that by increasing benefits targeted for daily living to realistic levels and then taregeting disability needs via assessment and SS that a fairer system would exist.

BTW if you do not currently get direct payments then perhaps you should as your SSD for a community care assessment - as is your right. You might just get some extra help and DP is a great way of taking control of what services can be provided (funded)though of course the money would have to be spent on assessed needs.

WilliamBarton · 21/01/2011 00:35

some people only like to hear from other people that agree with them and some are intrested in what others have to say. if you don't like what i am saying you need to ask is it because i insulted you or because you disagre with me, btw spelling is for those who find presentation more impotant than content

WilliamBarton · 21/01/2011 00:44

so why is the bone soup person sat typing on a computer conected to the interweb in thier own home and not filling gaps in rotten windows with a $2 gap filler gun from any diy store?

bullet234 · 21/01/2011 00:48

Thanks for continuing to bring this to our attention Glitter.

WilliamBarton · 21/01/2011 01:23

don't understand the Glitter thing....still loss of DLA a good thing because some will cope, the rest will find the people they care for in a care home until they can provide better

WilliamBarton · 21/01/2011 01:49

i think i suffered your abuse and threats quite well considering

buzzyB · 21/01/2011 02:19

StartingAfresh said

buzzy, you see the reason that wouldn't work is because Riven's social services dept had assessed her needs and decided that they were being met.

We don't get DP because the social workers have said that my DH should help me more. In reality, if he did, he would lose his job. He is a university lecturer and they have put all over their reports that he doesn't help me in the holidays because he is doing his research.

FFS, his research IS his job. That is what he gets paid for and what he is allowed to take 4 weeks a year holiday from.

Our social workers have also told me that I can't complain about ds not sleeping at night because I refused to take him to the GP to get sleep drugs for him so it is my own fault (our GP is dyametrically opposed to sleep drugs in any case).

You might be very good at your job. I have no idea, but you are certainly NOT resourced enough to even begin to understand the difficulties and pressures that an individual family face, and as such should NOT be in a position to play God with their lives.

My Reply

Yes I am aware that Riven had an assessment and probably the funding panel not the SW decided that extra respite would not be provided. The reason behind this is that social service departments have had massive funding cuts, not as I am saying their funding should be increased and the money ring fenced for providing targeted funding to meet disability needs.

The reality of this tragic governments policy is that country wide, social service departments have been forced to increase their FACS funding level - mostly to critical - as a direct result of government cutbacks. This is a massive difference to what it was only a few months ago. The result of this is that it is now much much harder for S/Ws to get support / care packages through panel. I must also say things can and probably will get worse.

In your case, it sounds as if you had a crap S/W because you have been given bad info. You can complain about whatever you want and your complaints should be listened to and acted on. Also it's not for a S/W to say how much support your husband should be providing or if you should be taking extra pain killers (which may in fact be harmful). Also the assessment of need should be just that not how much informal help you get.

If I was your SW I would be advocating for your husband to continue with his job and prima facia, support for you to cover your assessed needs so that you had the care you need - via DP & a PA or otherwise. I would also be signposting you and your husband non commissioned resources and support that may be available. As I do not know your particular case I can't comment to much on exactly what support you should be able to expect. I can only comment on what I see in my practice and that is some people are able to save their DLA whilst other needy people, sometimes with greater need are unable to get the help they need. That some people are using the DLA as income and in some of those cases because they do not have sufficent income to live on. In other cases however the DLA is used to furnish a very comfortable lifestyle, beyond what many working people are able to achieve. The reason for the discrepancy is because the DWP have moved the goal posts many time re eligability criterea. And yes some people who can walk much further than the current eligabilty critera get high rate mobility component DLA and then try to (and sometimes do claim) direct payments for transport, or high rate care component and then have a social services paid for care package.

You guys just don't seem to have the full picture. You are reactive based on your own experience and don't want to even consider any form of change. Is the current system then utopia. I know it is far from this

BTW I have also been in a carers shoes whilst careing for Mum who had polyrheumatica arthritis and later contracted breast cancer (perhaps due to the high dose of steroids given to her as a part of the 'treatment' for the RA). The breast cancer eventually killed her over a period of ten years, the last three in lots of distress. As such I know full well the stresses and difficulties that disabled people and their carers face on a day to day basis. I know that carers benefits are woefull and for many the welfare benefits designed for people to live on are just plainly inadequate. However, I also have a perspective that perhaps you do not, a perspective from the intricities of funding care and support, fro those in genuine need and those who are playing games. Forgive me than if I ask you not to play holyer than thou, I may well have more understanding than you and certainly more than you give me credit for.

And I do not, do not, do not play god with peoples lives. What I do do in my practice is help people improve their quality of life by helping them access care and support services and resources, by providing theraputic interventions such as CBT, brief therapy and family therapy, and by advocating for both carers and service users in the face of a mass of bureacracy and unsurmontable amounts of red tape.

I am not nieve enough to think that any ideas presented here will ever be taken up as policy but I do think that if people on this site cleared the red mist from their minds they may see that for most service users and their carers what I have presented as an idea would not only be benificial, perhaps even preferable to what is currently on offer but would also be much fairer.

I must also say that the way that people on this site jump all over any idea that doesn't exactly match their own agenda does themselves and mumsnet as a whole a grave disservice and reduces the credibilty of the site as a venue of reasonable informed debate and discussion.

buzzyB · 21/01/2011 02:37

Glitterknickaz

Er...... Hello........
Don't know who tolod you you need to be in employment to get direct payment but they were at best misguided.

Perhaps you are confusing direct payment which is from the DWP and direct payments which are from social services aka childrens services / adult and community services (or whatever they're called in your local authority area.

FYI

Direct payments are a means of having cash to pay for an assessed need. The service user (or carer if payment is for services for them such as respite care as amy have been the case for Riven) Generally any care or support provided via SS can be provided via a directly funded package of care or can be provided via a pot of money which must be spent on meeting addressed needs. This is designed to give people greater choice over how needs are met.

Some people like DP other don't - whatever floats your boat.

buzzyB · 21/01/2011 03:13

tabulahrasa said

buzzy one of the major issues I have with the proposed changes is the assessment.

How do you assess certain disabilities - like autism?

How on earth does a stranger decide what affect it has on someone's life and what their needs are better than the people involved?

Why should disabled people have to undergo repeated assessments to keep the benefit if their circumstances don't change?

How would an employer view time off work to attend these assessments?

Reply

Assessing things such as an ASD / LD is in fact a process that happens over a period of time, not on one specific meeting. It would be best assessed by using a team approach but is primarily assessed by a psychiatrist and a diagnosis is given usually in childhood. MH is different as this can be assessed in a mental health act assessment which is a one of assessment prior to possible detention.

Good practice dictates that carers should be an intregal part for forming all these type of diagnosis and itn is a requirement with a MHA assessment. As such a stranger is not making the decisions you suggest in the way you indicate but is one of a group of people making the assessment - including family members.

Dissabled peole do not have to undergo repeat assessments to keep service provision - they can be offered assessment but do not have to accept it. What has to take place is a periodic review of how any services provided are meeting assessed needs - just in case things have changed. As you will be aware the world is not full of honest people.

Currently many ssd's are re assessing their service users. This is a direct result of the change to FACS criterea and the need to reduce spending due to reduced budgets
Might I also respectfully direct you to a google of the personalisation agenda.

Don't let the ConDems con (no pun intended) you, the extra £'s announced for respite are totally inadequate and are designed to mask over in reductions to SSD's budgets.

Final point, some employers are very accomodating, some are very much less so. What happens in many cases however is when time cannot be taken of work for an assessment or a review, the S/W will do the review after work - I do this lots - and then try and claim the time back (with varying degrees of success) so please guys, don't abuse this.

Hossylass · 21/01/2011 03:34

Firstly thank you for all your comments and support.

I was the foster mother of a disabled child, and I am now disabled myself, but still have hopes of fostering again.
Sadly I cannot have children of my own.

The changes to DLA are laid out in a government proposal, again the proposal is not being given the 12 weeks lead time it should get and finishes on the 14th of February (which must be someone's idea of a sick joke).

There is something that you can do, if you feel that you wish to, and that is be a surrogate protestor, or accompay a disabled protestor to a protest.
By the very nature of disability we dont anticipate aggression from the protestors, though I cannot speak for the police.

If you wish to do this there are several sites that would help you - The Broken of Britain is one of them, and it links to other sites.
Obviously signing the petition would help too.

I am a bit overwhelmed by your sheer emotion, and grateful. For many years now disabled people have been vilified by the press and government. It is cheering indeed to read that society does not view us as the media would like. Thank you, a thousand times.

Regarding the consultation, it has a forward by Maria Miller.
Below is the forward, with my responses, which may answer some of your queries.
Please excuse me if the formatting goes astray, I haven't posted here before so I dont know what you will get!

Response to;
Disability Living Allowance reform ? Ministerial foreword

The Coalition Government is committed to helping disabled people to exercise choice and control over their lives. Disability Living Allowance (DLA) helps us to deliver on this commitment.

So why change it?

We have been absolutely clear that our welfare reform plans are designed to protect people in the most vulnerable situations, including disabled people. We are committed to a sustainable and fair system that allows people to work when they can and provides unconditional support to those who are unable to work.

^So DLA is an "enabling" benefit. It enables people to pay for the additional costs of disability, whether that is for care or mobility. It "enables" social interaction, and "enables" the opportunity to work. For many it also fills the gap left by inadequate social service provision, and allows for flexible care to be provided for those with fluctuating conditions.
I would be hesitant to describe the support as unconditional. The criteria for DLA are the conditions, and when someone receives an award it does not define explicitly what criteria are being applied, which is confusing if you have multiple conditions.^

As we move towards legislating for and implementing major reform through Universal Credit and our flagship Work Programme, I believe it is also time to bring disability benefits into the 21st Century.
Universal Credit is a tapered benefit. It is quite clear how the tappering effect will work.

DLA needs a similar tapering effect, by giving more levels of care and mobility it will better represent not only the level of disability, its costs and its implications, but also allowing for people to declare much more easily any improvement or degeneration in their condition.

We are steadfast in our support for the principles of DLA, as a non-means-tested cash benefit contributing to the extra costs incurred by disabled people. However, we need to ensure that the benefit reflects the needs of disabled people today, rather than in the 1990s.

^I am unsure how the world has changed significantly in the last 15 years. There has been very little legislation to effect change, and societal attitudes to disability have not improved, or been encouraged to improve.
Disabled people still have to resort to challenging disablist behaviours privately, on their own, with very little legislation to back them up.^

It is time that we had a disability benefit which is easier for individuals to understand and provides clear criteria and consistent awards.

^Increasing the levels of DLA will better describe the affects of disability, and therefore ensure that the awards better reflect the needs and expenses of disability. This will ensure that awards are more consistent.
Clarification of criteria, and making the criteria for an award available to the claiment is a simple clerical exercise.^

This is why I want to replace DLA with a new benefit ? Personal Independence Payment.

What is "why"? There is no evidence that DLA needs replacing. You have given no evidence that DLA is not fit for purpose.

This is our opportunity to improve the support for disabled people and better enable them to lead full, active and independent lives.

^A higher level of differentiation, and more levels of payment will allow for real savings, and better reflect the needs of disabled people.
No two disabled people have the same condition, with the same results, the same needs, the same desires, the same opportunities.
If DLA has a fault it is that it is not structured in a way that reflects enough the differences disabled people experience, and is not flexible enough to cope with these differences.^

Personal Independence Payment will maintain the key principles of DLA, providing cash support to help overcome the barriers which prevent disabled people from participating fully in everyday life, but it will be delivered in a fairer, more consistent and sustainable manner.

^There are three main barriers.

  • Society. It will not change unless there is enforced change, brought about by legislation. Not just access, but employment and hate crime. Disabled people are oppressed by society, which increases their disability, i.e. not only may they struggle to do something, but society wont help them and often actively hinders them. This is two struggles, not just one.
  • Financial. Many people who are disabled are in the lowest financial bracket. They often have to self fund adaptations, and care, and the provision of aids. Due to the postcode lottery of care many people use almost all their benefits paying for help, leaving them on the same level of income as a person on Job Seekers Allowance. JSA is however meant to be a short term benefit at subsistance level, yet many disabled people are left with this subsistance level of income every week for life. People on JSA have options, people with disabilities may not have these options. Not every disabled person has the type of disability that allows work, many have pain, illness, fatigue that prevent physical and cognitive work. There are very few jobs that dont need movement or thinking.
  • Medical. Many people with disabilities do not simply have physical disabilities of deaf, blind, amputee, spinal failure, etc. Many have conditions that are primarily disabling, but also involve pain, fatigue, illness etc. Some people are actually not well enough for work, and it is their illness that disables them the most. These people often do not have an involvement in society, they do not (because they cannot) involve themselves in a social life, a religous life, in education. Their disabling condition prevents them from "participating fully in everyday life".
You are suggesting that ALL disabled people can be enabled to participate "fully in everyday life", this is a total fallacy. For many people participation may be 'only leaving the house when they actually are well enough' and when they have the correct support structure in place, such as an assistant, a wheelchair, a wheelchair accessible vehicle, the finances to pay for all these things, and the strength and energy to gain some pleasure or benefit from the experience.^

It is only right that support should be targeted at those disabled people who face the greatest challenges to leading independent lives.

^Why is this the only solution? All disabled people require some level of assistance, otherwise they dont fulfill the criteria of being disabled, that is having a significant impact on ordinary day to day activities.
Those who face the greatest challenges already have the greatest support, in the main. It is those who need additional support, care packages, ILF, attendance, supervision, whether that is for the majority of the time down to minimal time, that face the greatest challenges of juggling what is available with what they need.
This is especially pertinent when many disabled people do not actually get any additional help, even though their disability is recognised as needing the highest level of care. Again this is due to a postcode lottery of care, and the inflexibility of social care packages.^

This reform will enable that support, along with a clearer, more straightforward assessment process.

^There is already a considerable amount of assessment for most disabled people already, performed by GP's, specialists, consultants, social workers and charities.
This should be considered an adequate, and professional, assessment.
Further assessment will increase the costs of implementing a new benefit unnecessarily.^

Personal Independence Payment will also be a more dynamic benefit ? it will take account of changes in individual circumstances and the impact of disabilities, as well as wider changes in society, such as social attitudes and equality legislation.

^PIP will not be a more dynamic benefit. It will be an increasingly static benefit as the differences between the levels proposed will be too extreme. People will not wish to declare an improvement in their condition, or their living experiences if it then means a huge leap in finances.
The levels should better reflect the amount of care and mobility a person needs, not attempt to reduce the levels and distort the reality. You cannot need full time care one day, and then feel you are coping better and suddenly find that you can't pay for the level of care that you need because it falls between the levels.^

Just as we are committed to providing unconditional support to those who are unable to work, we know that work is the best form of welfare for those who are able to do so.

^Work is not the best form of welfare for those available to do so. You are refering to one report that states that work is good for certain conditions.
Given the fact that the assessment to judge who is "fit for work" by Atos (the ESA WCA) is described as "fundamentally flawed" and "not fit for purpose", I have grave concerns that people will be assessed by a similar "flawed" scheme.^

That?s why I want as many disabled people as possible to benefit from employment ? it is not acceptable for anyone to be trapped in a cycle of dependency.

^Disabled People are not trapped in a cycle of dependancy.
Disabled people are trapped by the lack of legislation to force employers to accept them as equal in intellect and skills.
Employers are further stymied regarding employing disabled people by the re-aligning of Access to Work.

Disabled people are also trapped by the attitudes of society. This is a society that in 2011 is less welcoming, empathetic, flexible and caring regarding disabilities, in the main due to the media representation that most disabled people are workshy and scroungers and frauds.
Most disabled people are too ill to work, or their condition would deteriorate because of work. This does not make them workshy.
Many disabled people have paid National Insurance, and are not scroungers. They receive benefits to pay for the additional costs of their disability or disabling condition.
Almost all recipients of DLA are genuine, have been assessed as genuine, have produced huge amounts of evidence to indicate that they are genuine. DWP statistics show that less than 0.5% of DLA recipients are fraudulent.

I have yet to see this Government, or yourself, defend disabled people against this propaganda, hence you are complicit in allowing this propoganda to percolate throughout society. Hence society is not empathetic towards disabled people, and therefore unlikely to volunteer to be more accepting of them, employ them, or facilitate disabled people being part of "their" society.^

By giving people the right level of support through Personal Independence Payment, I hope that many more disabled people will be able to work and enjoy the advantages that an active working life can bring.

^I am unsure how you come to the conclusion that reducing the amount and accessiblitity of a benefit will be enabling. It will further disable people, who will have less care, and therefore be less able to compete in the job market.
Reducing the levels of payment will reduce the chances that they are getting the "right level of support".
Disabled people will not be able to work because the name of their benefit has changed. Changing the attitude of society, protecting and promoting disabled people, enabling them with very flexible working, making benefits dynamic, not only in their structure but also in their delivery, and an acceptance that disabled people have additional needs may empower some disabled people to work.
Many however will still be too ill or too disabled by their condition to attempt work.^

This is why I believe the time is right to reform DLA. We need to create a new, more active and enabling benefit of which British people can be proud ? a benefit fit for the 21st Century.

^In my opinion this is totally the wrong time to reform DLA. Society is not accepting of disabled people, in the main due to media propaganda, though unenforced legislation, insufficient legislation, encouragement of hate crime all play their part. Additionally cuts to Access to Work, Independant Living Fund, housing benefit, social care funding will actually decrease opportunities for disabled people to find work.

You cannot reform a benefit by redefining disability. You cannot employ private enterprise to reassess disability and expect that disabled people, in fact all people will be convinced that this type of assessment is anything like "fit for purpose".

We do need to create a new, more active and enabling benefit of which British people can be proud ? a benefit fit for the 21st Century. But I suggest that this new benefit recognises MORE levels of need.

If there were 5 levels of care, based on the actual hours of care needed, then as people gradually improve, or degenerate, the care levels available would better reflect this. People would then be happier and more confident to try to do more, confident in the knowledge that there is a level that is representative of their needs.

Consider the fraud statistic of 0.5%. Many of the people found guilty of fraud actually had, at the time of claiming, the conditions they claimed. Subsequently they have improved in health, developed coping strategies, found more suitable accomodation and purchased aids and adaptations. The DLA has empowered their recovery.
However they did not have available to them a benefit that reflected their recovery. DLA is not dynamic enough to do this. It is very much all or nothing.
And the proposed levels of PIP emphasise this even more.

Consider the mobility component of DLA. There are two levels. The lower level is primarily for those requiring accompanying. The higher level is primarily for those who are virtually unable to walk. Therefore you cannot actually improve without losing all the mobility component, as these two criteria are not connected.
For Mobility there should be three levels, each being available to all disabilities. Hence it would reflect the actual real amount of assistance that is required, not be targetted at specific conditions. Many people on the higher rate of mobility would be better served by a lower rate, arbitrarily £20, £35 and £50, which would allow those at the lower end to have attendance for essential mobility, the middle rate allowing for some funding of vehicles or mobility aids, and the highest rate being a considerable contribution to those who need both attendance and mobility aids.

Similarly the Care component could be based on five levels, £20, £35, £50, £65 and £80. Although this would allow for very little bought in care, it would allow for people to have their basic needs met of being able to eat, drink, toilet, wash, and take medication. As you can see, the top level would only allow for a maximum of 10 hours help a week - but this ten hours may be the difference between a person living and dying.
Greater flexibility and more levels that truely represent the many differing levels of need are what is required.

This approach is not more complex - it is far more simplistic, based on how much help and how much assistance is required for ordinary day-to-day living, which can be calculated in hours and converted to an appropriate level.
Ordinary day-to-day living includes eating healthily, taking medication, having social interaction, attending appointments, dressing,bathing, toileting, being safe both in the home and outside it. Very ordinary things to most people, but to many disabled people these simple activities are what their lives are centred around, they are the basic needs of all human beings, and for most that is what their DLA is spent on.
DLA is a flexible way of accesing help to satify these most basic of human needs. Social care is another way. However Social Care varies widely across the UK.
I receive no social care, as my social service adult care department cannot afford it. Others, with similar conditions get 4 hours care. Some get 20 hours care. Some get more, with the addition of ILF.
Some contribute towards this care from their DLA care component. Some give almost all their care component. Some give nothing. Some have domestic duties paid for, some have social activities paid for. Some people have all their DLA, Income support and incapacity benefit intact and get huge amounts of care.
I, and many others like me, live on a subsistance amount because we have to pay for all our care.
This is something I hope you will consider when formulating the reform of DLA. Neither society nor Social Care will be there to fulfill these essential needs, regardless of how much we wish it to.^

Thank you for those who read this far :)

And a bigger thank you for making this particular disabled person feel a little less alone.

ItsGraceAgain · 21/01/2011 03:55

Until a few years ago, the only people I knew on DLA were cheats. I now realise how inevitable that is - the majority of disabled people are indoors a lot, are unlikely to be frantically socialising down the pub and often have some degree of social anxiety. My odd-job man, however, with his fake bad back and higher-rate mobility, was an outgoing sort of chap.

Then a relative of mine had to enter residential care. She got DLA; it was the first time anybody had explained to me what it is and what it's for. A year ago, I applied myself. I was awarded LR on appeal. Both my relative and I had disabling psychological conditions and I can't describe how disturbing the application procedure is. The 'points' are almost all to do with physical disabilities. In both our cases, the few questions that relate to mental conditions were assessed purely according to their physical impact (we both needed support to go anywhere, meet people, etc.) Doing my own application, I found the process of dwelling on every physical effect of my anxiety incredibly upsetting and felt suicidal for several WEEKS afterwards.

I'm grateful for our benefits system - I'd be dead without it. But it has become more and more 'wrong' over the years. I paid a huge amount into the pot during my working years, never resenting it because I believed it provided a network of support for those who couldn't cope. Of course some people took the piss; that's true of any financial structure. If you run a shop, you have to factor in the cost of pilfering; you don't treat every customer as a thief.

But that's what's happened with the benefits system now. The whole thing is based on the assumption that every applicant is a thief. It's suspicious, accusatory and the rule of thumb is "They always say no first time." That is, the application procedure is humiliating and assessors treat applicants as liars. Sick people don't have the resources to drive a truck through this sort of thing: basically, if you're too fragile to cope with it, Atos and the Government will decide you were lying.

It's a despicable approach. I know of a wheelchair-bound agoraphobic who was refused mobility allowance on appeal ... because, as she's too scared to go out, she doesn't go out so has no need for support! To get to the tribunal, she had 3 care workers with her all day and was heavily medicated. It was the first time she'd left her house in four years.

The new protocol will make it even harder for claimants with psychological disabilities to get help: that is, virtually impossible. At the same time it narrows the field of point-scoring disablements, meaning that conditions which Atos & the Government haven't listed will fall outside the remit. All very handy for those who've perfected the art of the fake broken back, who have the emotional buoyancy to get them through the procedure. But worse than no help for the weak, the frail and the genuinely needy.

Where are those people suppposed to find the help they need to become contributing members of society? If your granny can't get a scooter when her legs go, how will she do her shopping? If your daughter develops anorexia, how will she learn to rebuild her self-esteem?

I'm really happy Riven's made the national news, but despondent about whether she'll be able to make any difference. Six hours sleep a week! How would you cope?

ItsGraceAgain · 21/01/2011 03:56

Sorry for the essay. As you probably guessed, I could have gone for PAGES Blush

buzzyB · 21/01/2011 04:47

ThisIsANiceCage said

buzzyB that's incredible what you say about claiming multiple benefits. I've been disabled at one level or another for at least 8 years, and have never even heard of some of these (it's not like the agencies fall over themselves to inform you).

It's really odd, because I remember back in the days when I needed housing benefit, the forms asked if you were receiving certain other benefits, or even had an application pending, because these would be taken into account. So although I bet there were people who lied, once the system caught up with them they had committed actual fraud and could be dealt with.

This sounds like sometimes agencies (is this DWP vs local council?) simply don't ask what the other is providing - mad, considering the depths of questioning and humiliation we go through to fill in the medical and capacity parts of the forms.

Reply

ThisIsANIceCage.

Sorry to hear about you having to endure you disabilities for the past 8 years. I am making some assumptions here so please forgive me if I am out of line with this.

I'm guessing that you live on welfare benefits. Possibly some DLA and perahps some other benefits. These benefits are from the DWP. Looking at DLA, this is a benefit targeted at specific needs, claimed via a complex form (you can get a paper version by phoning 08457 123456 or there are pdf versions and an online version on directgov, I prefer the printed version)

DLA is what is termed a gateway benefit - getting DLA adds specific amounts to the claimants applicable ammount which is what 'the law' i.e. the government says somebody needs to live. These benefits are claimed from the DWP and frequently paid via a process called direct payment. Dont fall into the trap of thinking that direct payment and direct payments (with an Sat the end) are the same thing, they aren't.

Direct payments are payments in leau of services from what used to be called social services. What used to happen is that a social worker would make an assessment of how a person was affected by their disabilities. A care plan would then be drafted and support arranged and paid for directly by the soical worker / SSD.

When direct payments were introduced this meant that people had the choice of the above or choosing to arrange for the support to meet the assessed needs for themselves. The ssd would the give them a pot of money (usually paid monthly) to pay for support - this was called direct payments.

Using Direct Payments is very good when it works but it does not work for everybody.

You are right when you say that agencies such as the SSD and DWP do not talk to each other. Their is legislation which prevents us doing this (Data Protection Act) and it is purgatory trying to get even very basic details from the DWP without written consent and even when this has been lodged with them one section of the DWP may have a copy of this and be happy to talk whilst another section may not have the consent lodged and therfore refuse to talk. It's madness, very frustrating and a huge waste of time. At worst this inabilty to talk has been a major factor in cases like baby peter and victoria climbie.

I could go on about benefits and DP but if you do not get these you can ask for an assessment under section 47 of the NHS & community care act. You have the right to assessment. The social worker (or support worker) should be able to give you more info and help you claim benefits. If you meet the eligablity criterea for services from social services (as was) they will advise you about direct payments on other options open to you.

Thing is re fraud, claiming DLA to meet the identified needs does not mean that you have to spend the money that way. It is legitimate to use the money as income. Me argument in this case is that people should be getting sufficient via other benefits so that they don't need to use DLA in this way. The DLA could be targeted then in such a way that it specifically goes towards relieving the effects of the persons dissability. People who don't need the money wouldn't get it. This would then leave more money to pay for support for others who don't currently get support or increased support for people who do not get enough support.

I think that this is a fairer way of ensuring that people get the support they need and also enough money to live on and extra money for increased utility bills as a result of dissability could be included in the DWP benefits. I then think that the money from DLA could the be added to the SSD budget and ring fenced for paying for services inc direct payments.

This method of delivery would have allowed people like Raven get the Respite that was needed but reduced or no money for those who just want to put the DLA in the bank and don't use it for support.

I hope this is helpful for you and also explains my position.

By way of a caveat are people on here aware that this crazy government are also abolishing ILF funding. Another way of depriving some vulnerable people from getting the services they need.

Karmalady · 21/01/2011 04:52

There are going to be protests against this on 24th Janaury:

benefitclaimantsfightback.wordpress.com/

I'm disabled, cannot work (although I always did work for 24 years!) and the ESA migration and the cuts/changes they want to make to DLA (coupled with the way they are doing it, using ATOS and an assessment programme deemed unfit for purpose - we have ATOS employed chiropodists, and others unqualified to do medical assessments, doing the tests, and often overuling a consultants opinion!), is a real nightmare in the making.

Great to see MumsNet taking up cudgels to help fight this government who, quite honestly, don't give a toss about anyone disabled - adult or child.

Please, if you have the time, Email your MP to express your views on it all.

Thanks.

Lin :)

Hossylass · 21/01/2011 05:24

This is from Rhydian, writer for the Guardian, and originally posted on the BBC Ouch site;

The Broken of Britain is busy fighting DLA reform, but as an user-led grassroots organization we need your help.

Firstly, sign the petition to stop DLA reform: www.petitiononline.co.uk/petition/petition-the-minister-for-disabled-people-to-recall-the-public-consultation-on-dla-reform/569/0aa4fc2026635b34c32b57a1e644d746

Use our campaign resource to write to MPs and Ministers: thebrokenofbritain.blogspot.com/2010/12/stop-dla-reform-campaign-resource.html

Let supportive representatives and friends know how they can help:
thebrokenofbritain.blogspot.com/2010/12/say-no-to-dla-cuts-how-to-take-part.html

I hope these links help, having letter templates for MP's is a real time saver.

Sorry if I am bugging you all :(

Hossylass · 21/01/2011 05:41

BuzzyB

Problem with your scenario is two fold;

  1. There is no national standard for assigning levels of care (hence the huge differences around the country.)
    In some parts of the country 98% of DLA care is taken in return for DP's or care packages.
    In other parts no amount is taken.
    So people with the same income and care packages contribute totally differing amounts and thus have totally different disposable income.

  2. For fluctuating conditions then the save and spend option is the only one that you can use your DLA for, as fluctuating conditions, regardless of severity, are rarely catered for by social services, hence no DP's either.
    Hence I save in summer to spend on care in winter.
    I am substantial need, not super-hyper-aged-critical, which is apparently what you need to be in my area !
    So I pay all my care out of my DLA and IB and IS, hence no mobility car. I live on a subsistance income after I have paid for my care. And that is not what it was intended for either :(

tonyt · 21/01/2011 06:09

Total support here.. Have got to stop these morons and there stupid cuts

goingroundthebend4 · 21/01/2011 06:41

Ds was asssesd as qualifying as a disable child meets every one of their critera but because i cope we are offered nothing bar load of judgey pants comments when ever TAC meeting ( mind Ot,physio,schoo,paed people all know my son say he is doing great yet sw can sit there and make comments without offering pratical help

goingroundthebend4 · 21/01/2011 06:42

My sons dla is currently helping me fund the cost of attending a signing course 7 hours in total on public transport for 25 minute lesson .Yet I was told well you get extra money what do you expect to do

tabulahrasa · 21/01/2011 07:52

buzzy - I was talking about the assessment process outlined in the consultation for the proposed PIP, not current access to provision

I know very well how the diagnosis for autism works, lol - which is why I also know that it will be almost impossible to assess how it affects somebody's life in a meeting with a DWP 'objective assessor'

the application process they're wanting to introduce is to assess 'key activities' that they deem essential to have a fulfilling life, then regular re-assessment to check that the person's claiming hasn't had a change in their ability to perform these activities

MmeLindt · 21/01/2011 07:57

Some great posts and interesting reading on the thread.

Grace made a very good point about benefit claimants being treated as if they were scroungers.

My Dad gets DLA (I have no idea what rate) and has a mobility car. He has COPD and finds it difficult to get around. Having the car means that they can get to the supermarket, or have a wander around town without him having to rely on buses. He gets very breathless if he has to walk distances, or if he has to climb stair, particularly if it is windy.

I am fully aware that he is lucky that he receives DLA for this condition, as in other areas of the country he might not.

He told me a bit about the claims process, and it is indeed very rigorous and not easy to cheat.

People who cheat the system are criminals. Those who need the assistance are not.

Buzzy
You do know that the rate of fraud for DLA is under 1% - much lower than any other benefit? Presumably, because of your job, you are being exposed to many more than you would normally meet in every day life.

Guardian comment today

and here

Glitterknickaz · 21/01/2011 08:02

buzzy I have not been told that DP are for those in employment, I've been told I CANNOT have them because neither me or DH work as our care responsibilities are too onerous. SS see this as us having all the time in the world which is quite frankly laughable. Nice twist though.

We've also been assessed three times in the last five years by SS. They've rejected us for help every single time because on their assessments they have found the children well cared for, not at risk and that we are 'coping' by their definition. This is despite two separate health professionals and a headteacher insisting we needed the help, and yes we do, they just continually reject us.

I still think William Barton is a complete troll quite frankly, as he advocates care places for each child at a cost of £1,500 a week per child when their weekly DLA is around £50. Yes, let's screw the economy completely shall we?

OP posts:
MmeLindt · 21/01/2011 08:36

Ignore them, they are taking up our time which can be put to better use.

WilliamBarton · 21/01/2011 08:41

compring £1500 to the 50 or so quid that is available to those who need it is wrong in that the £1500 pays for everything except the contact with friends and family. some will cope without DLA some will not. i simply cannot believe that Riven survives on six hours sleep, i tried it once as training for the armed forces and it only works for a few weeks then the body takes over.

btw sparkly nick naks who came up with the word 'onerous' you or them?

Glitterknickaz · 21/01/2011 08:49

That would be me. You do not live my life so do not pretend to know my situation.

OP posts: