friendships with parents of twins

[hatter]

Just over a year ago some friends of mine had twins. Now I know kids can take over your life and I know I can't imagine what it's like to have twins (but I do know what it's like to have two kids) but I really feel like we've lost these friends. We've seen them maybe twice since the twins were born. They never give invites out and constantly reject them - even when they've been made specifically with kids in mind. A lot of our mutual friends have kids/babies and if we go to each others houses or have a party we always start things off in the afternoon so it's easy to bring kids and there's always an open invitation to bring travel cots and stay into the evening.As a group we're very supportive of each other and have all found that having kids at the same time has been a very positive experience - we share advice and talk about kids lots, on the whole it's a real bond. But these guys have just dropped out, basicially. In the last year the best these guys have managed is one two-hour visit. The twins always have to be home for tea and bath, every night - without fail. We sort of thought things would start to change as they got older but I'm really not convinced now. I feel really sad but I do think our firendship is grinding to a halt. I also feel sad that I barely know their kids. We obviously differ in our perspectives about having kids and having a life and I don't mean to sound critical of their choices in that respect, but I think they're missing out on positive things, including letting their kids have close relationships with other adults who - given the chance - would adore them. I'm not sure they realise that they're in teh process of loosing friends (it's not just us). So what do you think? Am I being unsympathetic and selfish or do I have a grievance? Should I tell them how I feel or just let things drift?

I think a lot of mums of twins are convinced that the only way they can cope is fairly strict routine, which sounds like what your friends are doing, Hatter. I don't think strict routine is what I'd do if I had twins, then again, I wouldn't want to judge since I haven't had to cope with twins, either (although my mom who did have twins, said that having 2 very little ones of different ages looked like much harder work, in fact).

I'll pester Throckenholt to comment, since she had to deal with both different age little ones, and twins!

Maybe it's just how your friends need to cope, full stop? I would have throught you are entitled to tell them that you're sad you don't see more of them, but otherwise don't put pressure on them because it won't help, and they're making their choices, too.

sometimes its just too hard to make the effort. its as simple as that. sometimes i didnt go out for days on endwhen had twins AND a three year old. its was too much to get three babies ready and trapse them anywhere let alne mum gatherings. and you must remember mum gatherings are not everyones cuppa. i personally hate them. having to deal with other peoples kids drives me nuts.

if you go round to her house without your kid for a cuppa and a chat - that might be a good idea if you can manage it. maybe she would like the adult company without the often emcumbrance of other peoples kids messing up a house thats already too hard to keep tidy with more than one little one.

hope this helps

Custardo - dropping round for a cup of tea without kids is not an option, I work part-time, when I don't I have the kids and these friends live nearly an hour's drive away. When I spoke about invitations being rejected I didn't mean to mum's gatherings. I meant to adult parties where kids are welcome, to dinner, to lunch, to the pub (where if it's me and dh we talk it in turns - not ideal, but better imo, than no social life - )or even just to meet somewhere mutually convenient at the weekend to go for a walk together. I know it's an effort to get out of the house with kids but I've been there and done that and made huge efforts to keep up my friendships and I just feel let down. But I guess I wanted to hear some perspectives from others to give me an idea of if I'm being fair or not

hatter, sorry to say this, but you do sound as though if they have to fit in with the existing arrangements to make you happy - perhaps they would feel more comfortable meeting in a smaller group, just your family and them? what did they do before they had the twins (i'm assuming they are their first children)? if you do decide to have a conversation about this, it might be better couched in terms of "we miss you, is there anything we can do to make it easier for you to attend social events" rather than a grievance based conversation.

good luck.

I guess I may have sounded a bit like that Serenequeen - but I honestly don't think it is like that - because we've tried lots of different options of ways to get together. And we've tried making mutual plans (ie lets meet up this w/e what would you like to do, what time of day is most convenient, where is most convenient etc) I think I'm just feeling down this w/e coz we finally made a plan to meet but then they backed out

We've only got one, and fondly imagined that we'd chuck in her car seat in the corner of friends dining rooms while we partied before whisking her home & transfering her, sleeping, into her cot.

Reality was somewhat different. From the moment she was born she fought sleep; despite everyone telling me babies sleep when they are tired, our daughter did not and by the time she showed signs of tiredness, she was 'past it' and screamed & screamed, which hardly endeared us to friends, even very good ones or those with kids of their own.

The only way of coping was for us to establish a 'routine', hate the word let alone the principle, where she went down, in her cot or travel cot if we were staying the night somewhere at the same time every night.

Maybe your friends have a similar problem, or are so knackered that they daren't jeopardize what little R&R they have. Would you be able to put them all up for a night so the routine could still be adherred to ?

Perhaps they haven't realised how little you've seen of each other, you've nothing to lose by asking them directly if they could suggest a suitable occasion to meet, a kind of last ditch effort ?

Sorry, crossed posts with sq

Agree with what other people have said, re: making it a "we miss you" conversation rather than a grievance conversation.

There might be something else to consider though. Could your friend have PND? I haven't had it myself, but I have suffered depression when I was younger and it does make you cut yourself off from your friends almost without you realising it. I imagine compounding that with having to dealing with twins, it could well be crippling.

Thing is though, until you start the dialogue, you're not really going to understand what is going on.

Good luck, I hope the friendship can be salvaged.

hatter, it sounds like you've tried all sorts of ways to include these friends. I can see it is hurting you and it's easy to feel you have done something wrong. I think you need to persue this, in the nicest way, for your sake as well as for theirs. You need to feel that you have tried your best. If your friends still stay clear of you, you need to feel you gave things your best shot.

The twins are just a year old, aren't they? Babies and toddlers are so demanding yet they also change so fast. They could be sleeping badly at the moment - give it even a few months and that might well settle down. You may just have to accept for now your friends don't want to see outsiders, but that doesn't mean the friendship has ended or they will never want to go out in groups again. Keep the lines of communication open, contact them every few months, and see how things develop. You could even tell them you are doing this - say you realise they have their hands full at the moment, you want to help but if the best way of helping is leaving them alone you'll do it - you'll keep in touch but won't expect to see much of them till they feel the time is right.

If you think they are really having a hard time of it, and it's possible the mother has PND, you could write a note, stressing how much you like them and hoping to see them soon.

I have to say as a mum of two - but not twins - I do look jealously at people who go to others houses and child sleeps in a travel cot or buggy or other.

Unfortunately, although my two are fanatastic sleepers neither has ever really slept in anything other than their own cot/bed. (not for the want of us trying) This means at holiday time, they don't fall asleep in buggies as you stroll along, and if visiting would just not fall asleep, and you would have a bouncing child as you were trying to have an evening out.

Maybe your friend is in the same position, by the way I would love a friend like you

I have 16 month old twins and a nearly 3 year old. When the twins were young often just getting through the day was enough! Even people very close to us did not realise quite what a juggling act it was. I remember taking them all out to a playground/park thing with my mum when the twins were about 5 months old. Whilst we all had a good time, we paid for it later because they were all overtired and they ended up yelling for hours because they were too tired to sleep. Experiences like that really make you not want to do it again. I think that trip out finally made my mum realise what we were tackling daily, even though she has visited for a couple of days every week since they were born. For the first 9 months or so we pretty much had to stick to a rough rule of being awake for no more than 3 hours between sleeps for the twins. We have not attended family gatherings that would involve whole days out - despite the feeling that we think they think we just can't be bothered. At least mum tries to explain for us !

Now we are in the tricky situation of twins sleeping mornings and 2 year old sleeping afternoons. By the time you fit in food that doesn't leave much time for going out. Also it can be a logistical nightmare collecting enough gear for a day out.

Mostly the only full days we go out are to the grandparents - we usually go after the morning sleep, have a picnic somewhere then get back to their house for the afternoon sleep. Then eat tea and leg it home in time for bed. To do that we have to take 2 travel cots, nappies, clothes etc. In the past we also had to consider bottle feeds etc (before that I also had to lug along the breast pump !).

What suits us best is to go out over lunch - but that really depends on how forgiving you think the people you are visiting are - twins learning to feed themselves can be very messy. Also tackling it on my own is daunting.

Despite what I have said above, most weeks they are taken to a toddler group and a music session, and every other week we go to a coffee group. I usually find it much easier to host the coffee group because then I don't have to juggle sleeping so much.

I think if twins had been my first kids I might not have had the energy or guts to brave toddler groups or other outings. I think having the confidence of being an experienced parent helps.

Also if the husband is working them maybe weekends are sacred - maybe he can't cope with the idea of going out and being friendly to people (even if he would enjoy it when he got there).

I guess in your situation I would talk to your friend. Say you appreciate you can't begin to understand what constraints she has on her days, but that you would like to stay friends. Say that if she doesn't feel up to getting together yet let her know that she can pick it up again in a few months. Contact her every few weeks - she may not have time to pick up the phone to ring you !

Just one more comment - baths in our house are a much more ad hoc thing - it is a logistical nightmare taking at least 2 people and usually ends in me getting soaked. It is certainly not a relaxing experience for any of us (fun maybe). The thought of doing it every night fills me with horror !

Ds2's best friend and his dw have twins of just over a year old. They've survived the experience by being very organised but I don't think they get out much. Ds's bestf is a SAHD and ds goes to see them all quite often. He says the twins are exhausting atm as they are both mobile and the instant they're put down they zoom off to create chaos, usually in two different places at once, arrgghh!! Luckily, the grandparents take the twins some weekends so they get a break.

One other thing that I wonder about re Hatter's friends. I'm a bit of a homebird when I've a baby, and maybe the friends feel the same way because it gives them a sense of security and safety? I hope you can work out something, though I think if they want to be that way, that's their choice.

Do you think they might just be knackered, hatter? I remember taking my boys to a twins club when they were very wee and it was full of half asleep mums and identically dressed twins running amok- quite horrendous actually! I had to beat a hasty retreat, never to return. The 1st year with twins can be v. hard though, by all accounts. Mums of twins are much more likely to suffer pnd, parents of twins are more likely to split in the first year, twins are more likely to be premature, have sleep and behaviour problems, developmental delay etc etc. I was expecting misery and mayhem after reading some rather gloomy books about twins which emphasized these risks and was actually pleasantly surprised- but I've certainly never had less spare time or less disposable income at any time in my life as during my boys' first two years.

My partner and I had hardly any time for each other, let alone friends, and that was despite a pretty good level of support from various twin-besotted family members. When got the chance to go out we often chose to get some couple time alone as that was in very short supply with two young babies about. We were utterly skint- we were down to one income because my pitiful earnings pre-kids wouldn't have covered childcare for two- and had little dosh left for socialising after multiple baby stuff plus daily living was paid for. Personally, I would have gone stark staring bonkers stuck in the flat with the boys and thus had a pretty determined "have twins, will travel" attitude but I have to say it can be a real pain doing double buggies, double baby stuff and public transport. Adding travel cots, nightclothes etc for nighttime parties might well have tipped us over the edge! We were always delighted to see friends but they really did have to accomodate to us a lot at first- we had people popping over for a scratch dinner and a few bevvies more often than we made it out ourselves. It was cheaper, less tiring, less hassle. A few years on things are different- though I'm still bloody busy, grrr- and I'm so glad my friends put up with us seeming anti-social for a while.

So hatter, I guess my advice would be to sit tight and keep the faith with your friends for as long as you can. Pray they don't have any more kids and you may well find that they emerge intact from their twinhaze in another year or so! HTH and good luck.

thanks lots everyone - this has really helped me put things into perspective. I think that the basic problem is that as couples we are pretty much at opposite ends of the spectrum, when it comes to the issue of having kids and having your own life. We have always been of the have kids will travel school of thought (quite literally DD1 went to 4 different continents in her first year) and they really are homebirds - always have been really. So I guess being at the extremes just puts an added test to the friendhip. Scummymummy and Throckenholt - your comments really help me see what I might not have been able to in terms of the hassle factor of twins. Zebra, Twink, and others have said things that make me realise I've been lucky in having relatively easy babies, who've adapted to their surroundings and to changes in routine. You're right too, that it is only a year. Also, maybe I haven't been quite as open in ideas/invites as I could have been. Will put a positive spin on all this and make sure we get together soon. Thanks to everyone posting all the comments have been a real help.

Like Cutardo and Throckenholt, I have twins and a slightly older child too. Invitations to things with friends and family are of course lovely to receive, but often the reality of coping with the visit are so different from the idea of it.

An example of this was a picnic with friends just when my twins had got 'mobile' (my older dd was about 4 at the time and still needed watching and helping too). I had reservations about going but was reassured because my friends said they'd all help, no trouble etc etc and besides, they really wanted to see me.

The upshot was my twins kept bolting in two directions (at one point nearly had heart failure as my little ds vanished completely! soon found, relief all round)I spent the entire afternoon running after them and watching my friends chatting and relaxing with the occasional 'are you ok?, gosh they DO get about, don't they!'.I don't think I said more than three words to anyone in the end.

This has happened loads of times at get togethers - I'm afraid these days I've learned to say no a bit more if we're not up to it. I'm not saying we don't do these things anymore but it has to be something we feel up to. The last two years have at times been incredibly difficult for us for various reasons. I have no wish to go round discussing this all the time with everyone, but all I hope they can do is understand we've a lot to cope with and give us the option of a 'thanks but not this time' without too much offence being taken. (Sometimes I even just make an excuse!)
You sound a lovely friend Hatter - your friends are sure to be back in circulation and must miss you all, but it might take them a little time. They probably know only too well they're losing touch with their friends and are sad about it (I do!), but aren't able to cope with a visit just now no matter how much they'd like to, or the invitation is kindly meant.

Message withdrawn

Well slightly different persepctive (although there are twins in this comparison). Having an autistic child I have written before about how difficult I find it to visit familes with "normal" kids to the point where we actaully don't do it. With one noticeable exception. I have a friend with 4 NT children including 3 year old twins and we see each other a lot. The reason being that although the reasons are different we have the same sort of restircitons on our lives. When we arrange to meet somewhere on our own with the children we have the same sort of problems with big open spaces. She ranted at me once about meeting a friend with one child and being dragged across as city centre and said all the time she was trying not to lose her children, and was being told by her friend that she had to loosen up a bit and go out more, she was thinking "well Jimjams couldn't do this".

I recognise tinyganghq's situation as well - which is partly why I don't go anywhere. People tell me they will help, but they don't and like tiny I spend the entire time charging about after ds1 (occasionally people will help with ds2) whilst everyone else has a wonderful time. The only exception really is my extended family who take ds1 off me and take it in turns help with him.

My friend with twins will find that things get easier for her as her kids grow older. I'm fairly sure that her experience though will mean that she will continue to understand why we won't be able to do x, y and z for the forseeable future.

I think maybe you either have to let it drift without resentment or be very proactive and help as much as possible.

hatter, it can be so overwhelming when you have twins, only now, 2 1/2 years after ds twins were born, do I feel happy going out for any length of time.

Not only is it an organisational nightmare but I was so tired (think of it, you do everything twice, several times a day.) It doesn't sound much but I know from what my HV has told me that it is nothing like looking after two children of different ages (and she has two dds just over a year apart.)

I know I have cut myself off from people, friendships have expired so to speak. If anyone had phoned me to get on at me for not visiting I would never have spoken to them again.

There is such a pressure, your friends are still finding their feet and are comfortable in their routine. From experience I know that having a routine saved my sanity and I would panic if I thought plans were going awry.

But that is just me, I love going out and about, even though I could sometimes take over an hour just preparing to go for a walk - and there is nowhere to walk around here, I am sure the neighbourhood thought I was some weird burglar checking out their houses. Days out were easier with DH to help but could also be a logistical nightmare.

Hi everyone,
I have been out of circulation for a while especially this week as my three have been on half-term. It was also the 10th a/v of Matthews death this week which has really hit me hard. Anyway I am back ! I read all of this with much interest as my situation is this. Since I had my three Harry and I have tried to carry on our lives with them as we did with Matthew, that means travelling every opportunity we can and entertaining. I believe we are doing that still, but the thing that has changed is that we virtually now never get invited back, our friends come, we laugh like the old days, they say we really must do this more often, then it can like now be 3,4,5 months before we hear or see them again and we all live local! I love to go out, love to see friends, my trio are NOT badly behaved yet we now feel like social outcasts, why? We both get very tired and stressed, the children are 6 and Harry is 63 and I am 52! Despite that we seem to have more energy than our friends who by the way mainly are all single, what are we doing wrong?

Hi Paula,

thanks to people here I've got a better view on just how difficult it can be looking after twins: but (and please don't lynch me: it's a genuine question) I have frequently gone to social occassions with DDs 1 and 2 and without DH (at all ages from newborn on) and DH has done the same too. Is that still easier than going out as a couple with twins ie with one baby each (I'm taking past the breast-feeding stage, which is obviously a whole different ball game) . Or is it just that everything else is so knackering that it's just not worth the effort - which, having thought about it more, I can see now as an entirely valid reason.

Triplets - I too feel like this sometimes with childless friends: we defintely give out more invites than we receive. I think it's just one of those things: some childless friends can be fantastically child-friendly some just don't get it: they worry about their cream carpets, about what food to give a 6 year old (or in your case three of them!); they don't realise that it is possible to carry out several conversations at once; and, though, not relevant for you, they get annoyed if you throw nappies in the bin...Can you switch to the odd social event without kids - on neutral ground? Baby-sitters are horribly expensive but very good value every now and then.

Hi,
Babsitters arent a real problem as I have two nieces who can help out. We actually dont want to take the children with us, we need to get out on our own and have some stimulating adult company. Our friends dont expect us to come with the kids so why dont we get asked? On average we get out together 2/3 times in a year! I need the company of friends it is something that I miss so much, I guess everything changed when we lost Matthew.

I have been thinking so hard about this thread...
Because a lot of the issues that twin-mums cited are big ones for me, too, who only had 2-under-2 (soon to be 3 under 5). Constant supervision, never sitting down, trying to juggle different routines, crying, etc., until perhaps the last few months (eldest now 4yo). Although, now they have discovered wrestling with each other and that needs close supervision, too...

Notwithstanding that many people feel completely hammered by the arrival of one child, never mind 2 at once, and it's never fair to judge because we each have individual exhaustion thresholds --

Plus, I got to visit Throckenholt this week and see how exhausting her little tribe are (and that's within her own house and routine!)....

I think that until having baby/ies few of us have to to juggle our needs with someone else's, just to get out the door every day. Having one child is a huge upheaval, and if you get 2+ babies at once it must be all the more difficult to recover. That I think is what's so especially difficult about twins, esp. if they are one's first children. It's learning how to manage the juggling act.

Oh, and Throckenholt -- get 2 big non-slip bathmats to spread along the whole length of the bath! It will revolutionise your bath times.

Triplets: is it because of your age that the invites have fallen off? Just wondered if most your friends were out of the little kid loop, and feel like they don't have so much in common with you?

Sorry to hear about M's anniversary. But glad to see you check into MN, too.

nice to see you here triplets. Matthew's anniversay must be so much on your mind.

I too wonder it it is an age thing as Zebra says. I am 46. Lots of my friends around this age either have teenagers or, being past the usual child bearing years, are happily childless and don't have much interest in mine. And their lifestyles are so different. Even the parents of teenagers. No play park visits, no children's cinema trips etc so we have less in common. And of course, everyone else can meet up spontaneously, whereas we have to make plans and get babysitters. That's a real divide. When I was childless in my 30s, I wanted friends I could phone up on a Saturday afternoon and see that evening. Perhaps your childless older friends do the same, and it's no reflection on you personally? Sometimes I have felt the same as you I hasten to add - no invites despite giving lots out.

One thing I've done is got in a babysitter just to just to give dh and I some mooching around time - popping into local pubs and wine bars over an evening, just to see who is around, as a way of catching up with people and putting our faces about. I don't know if your friends are pub types, but if so, would it help if you and your dh just turned up from time to time?

I can see my friends slowing down energy wise as well, and getting more fussy, less tolerant and more set in their ways. I'm not saying I am peter pan, but having young children IME keeps you on the go and stops you getting too serious about yourself.

I know you must have been through so much with matthew's death and the birth of your triplets. At a guess, you havn't had much time or inclination to make new friends over the last few years? If you are still seeing friends from way back, do you think you have outgrown them without realising it?

Hatter don't be daft, I wouldn't lynch you for having an opinion, at least you have asked! One of our friends, who has two dds under the age of 4, babysat for us and confirmed it was harder.

It is hard to pinpoint why, sure there is the exhaustion but I see people with more children, or a whole batch of pre-schoolers, and wonder if I am not coping or have a low threshold? I do go out and about more now both ds twins are mobile, I use reigns (sp?) as they worked out pretty damn early I can't go after both of them if they split and run! Before now it would have been a struggle with the double buggy to go anywhere other than local. And as DH needs the car for work (he works shifts) that limited my freedom.

I also have a worry that they will misbehave, although they are quite good boys really. With two of different ages I could hold the youngest and keep an eye on the eldest! Or that is how I imagine it anyway!

There is a woman in the town where DH grew up who has - get this - a dd aged 7, (can't remember the sex of the rest so..) twins aged about 4 and then she had a set of triplets. Just to finish the family off, God knows how she manages! I suppose you just do, I wonder how I would cope if I had another set of twins, knowing how to manage them I think I would do better next time (hahahahaha!)