Are mixed race people black??

[franch]

Great article in Feb Good Housekeeping celebrating 20 "black and Asian" women who are "changing the face of Britain". However, included in the list are at least 2 mixed-race women: Kelly Holmes and Zadie Smith. I'm not arguing with these women's achievements, but surely it would've been simple enough to call it a list of "black, Asian and mixed-race" women??? Would these 2 have been included in a list of white women, as they are both 50% white?

As the white mother of a mixed-race woman (albeit only 1 year old!), it makes me feel irrelevant. And I also feel DD is missing out on having inspirational role-models identified for her.

Help me write a letter to GH about this. What points should I cover? Also, for reference, here is the rest of the list - I may have missed some others who are also mixed race:

Meera Syal
Baroness Valerie Amos
Kelly Holmes
Parween Warsi
Baroness Patricia Scotland
Gurinder Chadha
Yasin Alibhai-Brown
Doreen Lawrence
Zeinab Badawi
Shami Chakrabarti
Vanessa Mae
Trisha Goddard
Pinky Lilani
Denise Lewis
Serena Rees
Tessa Sanderson
Reeta Chakrabarti
Zaiba Malik
Zadie Smith
Baroness Flather

Ones to watch:
Parminder Nagra
Jamelia
Ruzwana Bashir
Mishal Husain
Nina Wadia

Just spotted Vanschtinkel's question back in Oct:

'would u still be as pissed off if you or your child was referred to as "white"? '

Answer: yes, yes and absolutely yes.

Bob Marley was also mixed race, his father was white.
I have two mixed race dc and have always referred to them and others as mixed race, although it is not always obvious what a persons heritage is. On the other hand my Black African dh often calls mixed race people black regardless, which I found very confusing when I first met him! I am used to him saying that now though, as I think he means it not so much in a literal sense, but more in a "we are all in the same boat" kind of way, iykwim, as a group of people who may have experienced similar struggles, or a way of asserting black heritage/culture or pride when there is a threat of it being suppressed or forgotten in some way.
He seems to have a perfectly legitimate need to reinforce black culture and heritage by referring to mixed race people as black because we are living in a predominately white country, and I guess there is a fear there that his kids may lose touch with that aspect of themselves, which is less likely to happen with my side of their background.

I would never refer to a mixed race person as black myself, but it does not bother me when my dh does it from time to time, I understand it to mean more than a literal description of a person.

I didn't read the whole thread. I have discussed with many mixed race individuals. Depending on their own experience and the environment in which they grow, some identify themsaelves as black, other identify theselves as Mixed race.

Mixed races who have a strong cultural input of their black heritage would identify themselves as black, like many mixed races in Africa and in the USA. Those who know very much less about their black cultural background and therefore can't fit in the the black community would tend to identify themselves as mixed race.

The identity of a mixed race person seems to be confused only in racially divided societies like the UK, where mixed race relationships still remain "taboo".

Being also a mum of mixed race children, I don't mind whether my children identify themselves as Mixed race or as Black, this is not the most important. The most important is to raise mixed race children by showing them both sides of their cultural/racial background. A mixed race child should have a balance of both of their backgrounds, so they should feel comfortable in the white community as well as in the black one. Then, they will feel that they have the right to choose what they want to be referred to as.

I tried to skim the thread dont know if this has been said before. In south africa you had/have blacks / white and coloureds - the coloureds being those of mixed race. on on the ethnic origins form I always tick other.

"Those who know very much less about their black cultural background and therefore can't fit in the the black community would tend to identify themselves as mixed race."

I've just posted on your other thread, Morine. Please stop madly generalising about why we might call ourselves mixed race in this way-it's absolutely infuriating. Calling yourself mixed race is an entirely valid choice. It is not necessarily about shame or lack of knowledge, historical or otherwise.

And your experience may well be (I am also going on what you said on your own thread) that the UK is very racially divided and France is less racist, but my experience and that of my sister and others I know is firmly the opposite.

Has it occurred to you that this may be because in one's own country, one can negotiate and manage encounters more easily (thus avoiding or not being subjected to racism)? And your experience here may be as much about being foreign as being black?

I really do not want to come across as having a go, but I just can't let these sweeping assumptions and generalisations go unchallenged.

In my experience, being mixed race can often mean having a whole lot of people (black or white) presume to tell you who you are, what you are, where you fit in and what you feel about it. And I for one don't put up with it.

Eldritch, I am not making assumptions and I am not generalizing. I am talking according to my experience and mixed race people I talked with. I even didn't say that it was about shame.

The thread I started was just trying to reply to the questions mums were answering in this thread. People didn't seem to know what is "black", so I have tried to explain what is "black" in the thread I started, and My thread is going in the same way as Couchintigress's post (who is also a mixed race person).

I didn't say that France was less racist than England, I just meant that I had and have a better experience in France.

You have your experience, I can't speak for you. I can only speak according to my experience and according to mixed race people I talked with. Hope all is clear.

Morine, your posts DO generalise. Perhaps it is unintentional and a language thing, but they do. I'm not trying to challenge your experiences, far from it, and it seems from your last post that you don't necessarily mean to generalise. In that case though, it might be as well to word things differently.

For example:
"The identity of a mixed race person seems to be confused only in racially divided societies like the UK, where mixed race relationships still remain "taboo"."
That's not expressed as your and your friends' experience, but as fact . And in my experience, it's nowhere near as simple as that.

Ok I see, it is certainly a language problem, I should stop talking , I should not say things by generalising even if I met some mixed races who were confused about their identity.

Thank you for highlighting to me.

You are quite wrong about mixed race relationships being a taboo in the UK, Morione. Actually we have one of the highest rates of marriage between people of different ethnic backgrounds in the world.

Of course there are still idiots who have a thing about it, but as a society actually we aren't doing that badly compared to many other places one could mention.

being mixed does not mean you cannot identify with one race over another or feel comfortable associating yourself with one race over another..its up to the person surely...but if you are just talking about how a person 'looks' then without a word others will ...and thats a simple fact of life..experienced or not

to the OP...some of those people identified as black may not have had an issue...I'm sure they were consulted and if they had objections would have expressed them..

Ok Edam, I have also read that the UK has one of the highest rate of divorce.

You know about mixed race relationship, I am just surprise about what I am experiencing here as i don't experience it when I am in France, and I have also talked with few mixed race couples who have experienced the same, even a mixed race couple complained on the local paper about "racism and stuff", this I have never experienced it in France.

Good point Mumcentreplus, many people also tend to see black only as a colour and not as a culture, it is actually what I was trying to highlight in my OP.

I started reading this thread before I realised how long it was but as it is a subject close to my heart I have read it all the way through. - very rare!
OK I am 50% yellow and 50% white (British/Japanese). My DH 100% yellow (Chinese).Our DCs 75% yellow and 25% white but they are definitely MIXED RACE as I have tried to explain to my MIL who feels they have to have a Chinese identity because of the way they look. I want them to grow up celebrating ALL of their cultural heritage and not just the 50% they got from their father. I want this so they can be proud of being mixed and not go through the miserable identity crisis I went through when I was a teenager.

mumcentre - you may be right that the women in the list are ok with being described as black. My DDs, however, identify themselves as mixed race (so far - although according to morine that means they know "very much less about their black cultural background and therefore can't fit in the the black community" ), and I do think that as this is such an inspiring list, it would be positive for my DDs to have mixed-race role models identified rather than hidden.

Oops ranty post last night, sorry.

hello franch, nice to see you keeping tabs on this thread after all this time. Did GH get back to you and what did they say? I agree with you entirely about identifying mixed race role models but I would like to add that your DDs already have great role model in their own mother - a strong woman who believes passionately in fighting her daughters' corner. There's more to us than our colour after all.

Thanks sahm

No GH never got back to me!

I agree hester alot comes down to appearance although the way you are brought up hs a massive impact. Kid brought up by an black mther usually identify with black culture and vice versa. My kids vary from dark skinned with very black hair to light skinned with brown hair with blonde streaks and I do get looks walking along the street. My husband took the lightest skinned one out and said people were looking at him like "what are you doing with a white kid" lol!

In the past ie back in the long distant days when I was a kid mixed race people did tend to be classed as black however now there are so many mixed and different races I think that perception has changed.

If you ask a mixed race child what colour they are th ey might say white because that is what they identify with.

To Franch who said "so far - although according to morine that means they know "very much less about their black cultural background and therefore can't fit in the the black community"

Franch I didn't mean to generalize, I actually said it according to what I learned from few mixed race people, you know the rule here, once you have posted something you even can't go back to correct it .

I agree with Sahm who said : "I want them to grow up celebrating ALL of their cultural heritage and not just the 50% they got from their father. I want this so they can be proud of being mixed and not go through the miserable identity crisis I went through when I was a teenager. " VERY GOOD POINT SAHM, WELL DONE!!!

I like your posts Sahmbutnot..., they are very inspiring, full of wisdom and experience.

"...and I do think that as this is such an inspiring list, it would be positive for my DDs to have mixed-race role models identified rather than hidden."

Thats why at the end of the day it is all about respecting peoples' choice of identification.

But morine, there will be no mixed-race role models if they are all identified as black.

franch I don't think all are identified as black, some mixed race celebrities are identified as mixed. I saw a program on the tele where a mixed race actress was identified as "Mixed". I can't remember her name, she is in a soap opera, she is quite light with curly hair.

To be honest with you I beleive this problem is deeper than we think if we put ourselves in a mixed race individual shoes. For example I met a mixed race young man who identifies himself as black. He said to me that he is not denying is white culture, he knows already his white culture very well, he just feels that he needs to affirm his non-white culture who seems to be hidden or ignored in the western world.

If you look at the system of education,it doesn't seem to recognise the contribution of many other non-white cultures, if you look at what is on the tele, all is westernised, there are very few or no ethnic programs, movies or shows. We have to make lot of effort to show our mixed race children their non-white culture because they will not really get it through the school teaching or through television programs.

My opinion is that sooner the western world will fully recognise the existence of other cultures, sooner more and more mixed races will be really proud to identify themselves as mixed race, this is only my opinion.(hope my english is not too bad there )

The lady on the list are very learned women, if they didn't mind to be identified as black, maybe they have a deep reason, maybe it is a way of affirming one side of their culture which is not predominant and need to be acknowledged, but this doesn't mean that they are denying their white culture. This is just my opinion.

For your daughter, have you tried to look at CBBC. I know there is a program involving a mixed race little girl who acts with some puppets, but I can't remember the name of the program, there is also a teenager boy I saw this morning on CBBC, he has straight his hair but you can still notice his afro features, can't remember the name of the program either.

Wow thanks Morine. Not sure that I deserve quite such high praise but thankyou anyway.

My DD is mixed race, I'm white Irish and DH is black African. Over Christmas we had to take her to the hospital and were asked all the normal questions at reception. When we were asked for ethnicity DH said mixed race, receptionist said "oh no we don't have that - we'll just put black"!!

I very firmly believe that DD should know all about her African heritage and be proud of being Ghanaian, in the same way I believe she should be proud of being Irish. She is a mixture of the two and so we will bring her up knowing she is mixed race, not black...and also not white.

Well said, aoifesmama. Why can't we all just say what we are and be proud??

morine, the marginalisation of non-white groups isn't a reason for mixed-race people to be classed as black. Both are non-white and therefore both are marginalised. This is a problem but a separate one.

I disagree the 'blackness' of mixed-race people is 'not predominant' in contemporary culture. Blackness is often the only thing that white people see when they look at a mixed-race person. This is a survival of the very sinister "one-drop rule."

And I'm sorry, but Angela Griffin and a puppeteer on CBBC are no substitute for Kelly Holmes and Zadie Smith ...

My original point was not about mixed-race people being visible (though I acknowledge this is important too), but about mixed race role models not being subjected to the 'one-drop rule', either by themselves or others. Instead, why can't they be proudly identified as mixed race? Don't you see how great this would be for our kids???

I'm repeating myself a bit here but will say this once again: if these women are on a "black and Asian" achievers list, why would they excluded from a hypothetical "white achievers" list when they are in fact half white???