British mums in France - tell me about parenting and raising children in France!

[SophieInTheSky]

Hello,

I am French and living in England, and I have been reading the threads about lockdown in France. I have really enjoyed reading accounts of French life seen from a British perspective, and now I want to hear more about what you think and feel, as far as raising children and parenting is concerned.

E.g. what do you miss the most about raising children in the U.K.? What you prefer in France and also in the U.K.? What do you love and hate about French parenting? What about schools?

For instance I still don’t get how early a lot of (most?) British children have their dinner and go to bed.

Interested in reading because I am French but live in Australia and I have strong opinions about the parenting style here so it will be funny to read their views!

The book “French Children Don’t Throw Food” is a hilarious account of an American mum raising her children in Paris. I grant it’s not an English account, but I was an au pair for 2 years in west Paris and she has the nursery and social aspects exactly how I remember.
My worst nightmare was the 40-minute round trip by train to La Défense to buy baked beans in the marks and spencer there, which were impossible to find anywhere else!

I read the book too and quite a few aspects reminded me of my own childhood in France! And if I raise my children too, especially as far as meals and a ‘cadre’ are concerned.

• of how I raise

@LeGrandBleu - what’s very different in Australia compared to France?

So many things!
Same here, mainly when it comes to food!
Kids eating food non - stop, snacking all the time, eating crisps every day, having crisps as part of lunch in lunchbox. When we are in New Caledonia, it is so easy to spot the Aussie families because they are the only ones with gigantic amounts of crisps and snacks.

Meal times! dinner at 5pm! Before Sydney, we were living in Barcelona, dinner was at 10pm!! Bedtime so early and then they complain kids are up at 5am. Yeah, I wonder why!

The mess toddlers and kids are allowed to make in cafés! The mothers don't care and I would be mortified if a poor staff had to clean after me like that! Food thrown on the floor, all over the table.

Children are so picky and fussy eaters. Super limited diet, fish only if fried, but then when you see how they wean babies, these kids don't stand a chance to like real food.

Now schools....

SINGLE SEX schools!!!!!! OMG!!!!! What!!! Single sex!!!! Religious schools, so many!!! When I was growing up, religious schools were for delinquents, it was a threat! Behave, study, or I send you to the Jesuits! and private schools were for those too dumb to succeed in public school, so you basically paid for your Bac!!!

And the obsession and lost hours of sleep parents go through deciding which school. And their dream is a single sex, private religious school!

Enough for now.... but I have more, especially about tidiness and cleanliness!

Meal times! dinner at 5pm! Before Sydney, we were living in Barcelona, dinner was at 10pm!! Bedtime so early and then they complain kids are up at 5am. Yeah, I wonder why!

So, you send your toddler, who needs 10-12 hours of sleep a night, to bed at 11/midnight and they stay in bed until midday the next day? Doesn't that screw up your whole morning?

And eight year olds need 10-11 hours, so how does a kid eating dinner at 10 get up for school without being exhausted? Do schools start much later in Barcelona? Or is there a siesta at midday/an afternoon nap? That would explain it.

There is a two hour break for lunch 1-3, but most kids would just go home for lunch and then back to school till 5pm. In 5 years living there, I never met anyone who did the siesta !

10 pm was late even for us.

In France, dinner is usually at 8 (7.30 if very young children) and all the family eats together and eats the same thing. There is no such thing as kids having a special meal or having dinner 2 hours before parents.

hard to generalise really. Someone living in central Paris will have a very different experience from someone living in rural Creuse. But what I will say is that the school selection process in the UK seems utterly mad to me, all that angsting about school choice.

I know it’s hard to generalise, but I would love to know what British mums living in France love/hate about having children in France, or what they find odd, whereas for a French person it would be completely normal.

We are in a very rural area in the Charente. I love bringing up my DC's here. The have much more freedom and independence that they wouldn't have in the uk. We have a huge garden, we can have animals, they both now speak 2 languages fluently! They are not overly social anyway so enjoy the seclusion outside of school.

@SophieInTheSky I was brought up in France by British parents and the dinner time / bedtime thing is sooo true...

Dinner (without parents) at 5:30/6pm and off to bed by 7/7:30pm for most of primary school... Whilst my French friends went to bed at least an hour later... And ate with their parents !

Otherwise, I know the lack of school uniforms drove my mum crazy. We lived in the south of France where it gets really warm in the summer and vest tops / shorts were common attire at school... Which she didn’t approve of... We had many arguments related to clothes

Thanks, that’s so interesting re school clothes! I know, dinner time is the thing I just can’t get used to. We have dinner at 7pm with the children and they go to bed at 8. Some of my friends’ children have dinner at 4:30/5pm and go to bed at 6:30, even their 5 year old. And then they wonder why they’re up at 5am every morning!

I’d love to know which aspects of French parenting that the French find absolutely normal, really irritate or bewilder British mums in France?

This is not about parenting but schools.

I would love to hear a British explanation on two aspects of school that really really differ from French school : the way they teach to read and the streaming based on abilities.
So in France, you learn to read at primary school around 6 years of age. Most kids don't know how to read when they start in September. Many school apply the syllabic system B+A=BA and by December all kids read some slowly some fluently but the vast majority would read any text you put in front of them.
Here they apply the phonics systems, where you learn to read based on sounds, one sound after the other over the course of months if not years and so many kids still can't read in y2 or y3, they give you fake books to read with stories created to content the sounds you have learnt more than an interesting story.

French and English are similar in the way that both are very old languages and what you see is not what you say, and depending on how you combine letters , they make very different sounds. In French. a+u=o but a+I=é. In English the same. And both languages have a ton of exceptions.

Yet the teaching of reading is so complex in the British system. When we moved, I helped at school, with other local mums, listening to kids reading. My son was enrolled in y2. Couldn't speak a single word of English, but would read the text, with an awful pronunciation and without understand a single word. Then as his knowledge of English improved, so did his pronunciation and in six months he was very fluent.
I kept coming and helping at school for most of the primary years and those kids I was listening to, still stumbled while reading years after. So many of them. When did you switch to the phonics system? Did you have it when you were a child? or was it B+A=BA?

And the streaming. I can understand the logic behind, but the reality is wrong. Some kids are always left behind. By giving them easier work, you endorse their weakness, you enable their difficulties. If you struggle with say the long divisions, instead of giving you easier long division, a French teacher would give you 10 or 20 long divisions every single day to do at home until you master them . Here, instead of catching up, you are left dragging behind.

And talking about long divisions, you know, you do them upside down, right? . Picture attached. What is on our left is on your right (but you drive on the left, why move the dividend!) what is on our right is on your left, and the result (quotient) on top and not the bottom?

I prefer the French way and have largely adopted it but then suce been here nearly 20 years and my DC are more French then English. The only thing I never did is wrap my kids up winter even when it isn't cold. And of course birthday parties, just loads of sweets...there is a happy medium between that and the over indulgent UK children's birthday parties.

Every time I meet up with old UK friends kids I'm so relieved I brought mine up in France.

MadameF, the cagoule made of wool ! so French!!
You are right, we do wrap them up!!

With the 'one meal for the whole family', i love that concept but my DC will just not eat if its not something he will like. He will try it but will go without and then get hangry later. How do you get around that? Hes only little and the hanger is incredible

@LeGrandBleu my mind is blown by the long division, it makes so much more sense.

DH is half French, and I find the differences in the French family and English family quite interesting. DS isn't at school yet so hard to comment on that.

I find my French in laws are a lot more dismissive of food allergies/intolerances and seem to take the attitude of 'go without' rather than accommodate and find an alternative. Could be my in laws though?

I never had kids in France so can't comment on that but when I lived there (Nord) I worked in a primary school.

I thought some of the teachers were very angry and shouty and used fear to lead the class. It didn't have a very nurturing feel to it.

I also found the school day far too long, especially for young children.

I cant believe there aren't any fussy French children when it comes to food? I've two, one fussy one not. The only difference was the way I weaned. Puree for my 1st born = fussy eater. Baby led for 2nd, not fussy. Now they are older 9&7, they will both try new foods and can differentiate between, urgh that's horrible, to its, not a flavour I like, but there isnt anything wrong and I'll eat it.

Bubblesbubblesmybubbles I think difference is that Australians (and I believe Brits) consider there is food for kids and food for adults as you see in every restaurant menus, you have the kids menu and adult menu, whereas for us, you adapt the texture for young kids, but not the flavour. We start with veggies of course, but would never do some of the crazy combinations found in the Ella's pouches such as spinach and blueberries or zucchini and apple.
We don't think in terms of what will the child like and if he says no, we won't jump and grab something else. Soups are a big classic, and then a tiny piece of the fish and meat or whatever. We wean with cutlery, so a piece of egg on a baby fork if toddler wants to eat on his own. We have the same meal times and meals and a toddler will sit at the dining table. The child sees what the parents and siblings eat and eats the same, could be mussels, could be pasta. We don't adapt taste.

A French meal is however different from an Australian meal where you have a lot of one-pot meal, stew, curries, ... we have a piece of meat/chicken/fish/ omelette, cooked in a pan or oven with or without sauce .... with one or two veggies on the side and maybe potatoes , rice or sometimes just a lettuce. There are options on the table, but no new one will appear if you don't like what is there. Dinner would be cordon bleu, with carrot salad and maybe a couple of boiled potatoes. A sole cooked in butter, with some sautés veggies and mashed potatoes. We don't eat a lot of fried food.

We NEVER eat sandwiches at home. It is for a train journey or a long car trip. Now I know, many office workers in 2020 will eat a baguette for lunch, but when I was working in Paris, we would go to a bistrot and select an option of the "plat du jour". Here, we and the kids, eat a hot meal or a cold meal (such salade composée with boiled egg, lardons and croutons) every day. Kids at French schools are served a hot lunch. They don't eat sandwiches 200 or more days per year.

DreamingofSunshine I have the same attitude. I respect however allergies and intolerance, but I am very much less patient with fussy children. I have 3 teenagers and lots of their friends over all the time, and I increase portions, but won't change the menu. So if dinner is saltimbocca, saltimbocca it is for everyone even if you have never seen a leaf of sage in your life.
If dessert is gaufre with cream and strawberries and one of the 5 friends tells me he is allergic to eggs while I am putting the dish on the table, I will hand him a bowl so he can eat the strawberries and cream , but will not redo gaufres without eggs for him .
Different with regulars I know have allergies. But the whole table will eat the same dish which that kid can eat. Not one for him, one for us. You don't differentiate at the table