I think my mum has been scammed for a trust

[miniworry]

I've just spoken to my mother (age 67) who has informed me that in July she used a company to put her house into trust with both my brother and I as the beneficiaries.

When I asked to see the trust so I could just read through it (my brother doesn't yet own a house so I wanted to see if this affects his qualification as a first time buyer) my mother then informed me that's she's actually had no paperwork at all about the trust, she was just sent forms and then signed them. Apparently the company told her that she doesn't need a copy as they keep all that info here'.

My stomach immediately dropped and I asked her how much she paid ... £4000 🥺 I've since looked at the title documents from the land registry online and I can see that she is still the legal owner.

The company is viva planning and even one look on their website gives me the hunch it's not legit.

She's been scammed hasn't she? What are the immediate steps I can take now? My worry is she has no idea what forms she completed so only knows what she's signed over!

This was my understanding of a trust too

I don’t agree with this at all. To get old, need some (poor quality) help with life and just have all your assets stripped to pay for it is awful.

OP when did she set it up, is there a cooling-off period?

These companies are skilled in persuading older people that this is a good idea to protect their property from care home fees. My mum nearly set up one but we found out and stopped her. The company has all this marketing blurb and she thought she was doing the right thing.

For one it can be seen as deprivation of assets. It would make the house harder to sell later, and we might need to sell it to get her into a decent care home.

I would get some legal advice as to whether you can cancel it.

I don't mean to concern you but please listen to Sue Mitchell's podcast My Dear Friend unless you have been involved in the process other people can put themselves forward as an attorney and witness for LPA they can be done without solicitors involved as they cost £92 for each version.

Although I think some of those "avoid care home fees" trust schemes require you to transfer the legal title to "Scam Trust Company Limited" so the legal title might be transferred (note that this can take months to appear on the title as the Land Registry is very slow). These schemes are almost always pointless, either because you don't end up in a care home or because, if you do, it is obvious that the scheme has been set up to avoid care home fees and as such, is challenged by the Local Authority as intention deprivation.

If they are giving out legal advice without proper qualifications you can report them to the Solicitors Regulation Authority. It may also be a criminal offence.

I don’t think it’s a scam per se, but she’s been sold a product that has many many pitfalls from a tax point of view. She needs legal advice from a proper tax planning solicitor to get it unravelled.

I do think it’s immoral to try to avoid care home fees in this way, but tbh it’s also an increasingly bad idea as having zero choice about what kind of care you can buy is likely to give you a terrible quality of life.

Anyway, not really the point - this sounds like it may be a rip off rather than a scam, in that there may be an actual company that has done something. Just that it will have cost far too much to do something either unnecessary or a bad idea.

I would call them, but I’d also write to them, copied to your MP, Trading Standards etc. those Disgusted if Tunbride Wells type letters copied to all and sundry still have an effect, oddly.

@Soontobe60 @Ivyfanclub yes as I mentioned in my PP I did sign paperwork for the LPA- we knew this was happening, but nothing about any form of trust. I have signed nothing for this.

My plan of action is to go to her house today and get everything she has in terms of correspondence together (she says she has nothing!)

I've got access to her online banking so I've already got the proof of the transactions

I've also drafted a letter that I will send to the company tomorrow and also email.

On my call list for tomorrow is the land registry, an estates planning solicitor and obviously said bogus company.

Anything else I've missed?

Do keep us up to date. I’m fascinated to see how this pans out.

So who should pay? If I have a house worth £1m and need care at a cost of £5K a month, where is that money going to come from? You think the tax payers should foot the bill so that a random stranger can benefit from their parent’s wealth.

I'm sorry if i missed something but does your DM suffer from anything that warrants you having power of attorney over her finances or is this only in case she develops something that would make it necessary?
If it is the former, you could make a case for your mother not having the capacity to make the decision without your intervention?

You will likely need to register the LPA with the company who sorted out the Trust - they will not discuss it with you otherwise.
Has your DM drawn up her will? If so, would she let you have a copy or even better the original if you’re an executor?

I’d phone them with her next to you to find out what’s happening.

Presumably the POA means she cannot make her own legal decisions any more.

Once you tell them you already have a (presumably invoked and fully registered so no dubiety) POA and that she cannot make legal decisions due to incapacity to understand things, I would hope that they would realise that nothing they have done is legit as you, as POA, have not approved it.

Whether you get any fees they have taken for their services back or not is anyone’s guess.

The elderly try and do financial stuff, in my experience it never ends well and the person they are trying to help end up running around trying to fix their crap.

They need to invent a Go Henry card for the elderly so we could see and approve all transactions prior.

Presumably that company now has her bank card details she gave over the phone so they can help themselves to more fees whenever they like, especially when the learn they’ve been rumbled.

Your first call tomorrow may therefore be to put a stop on her account or something.

Who knows what else she has done so it might be prudent to leave a small sum in that account so she can buy some online things should she wish to shop, and open another account with the same bank and put the rest of her money into that so its safe from her stupidity, cannot be come after by that mob, and she still has her same account and card etc so you don’t have a faff with changing direct debits to a new account.

As you don’t know what documents she’s signed, I’d also sign up the the Land Registry’s property alert service for properties at risk of fraud (e.g. no legal charges, signed dodgy paperwork etc). It’s free of charge and will alert you to any changes to the title - e.g. ownership, charges etc.

Can’t remember if it alerts at the time of attempt, or if it’s a periodic alert. We also get emails every 6 months which states no transactions have happened etc.

So I've just got back from my mums.

Turns out the power of attorney was done somewhere else not with that company.

She had her will done with the company in question, for which she has received the paper document of this.

However, she has not one shred of correspondence about the trust. She said everything was done via phone call and video call with no follow up paperwork at all.

The only proof she actually has of anything if the fact she can prove she sent them £4000.

I'm so cross at/for her. I've told her that from now on she must not make any financial decisions or even pay anything over £100 to anyone without discussing it with either my brother or myself first.

I have the registered address of the company and their telephone number on the back of the pack the will came in which I've taken hold of, so I am going to call them tomorrow.

@OompaLoofah I've paid to view the land registry so this makes a wise next step too, thanks for that.

@TalulahJP the go Henry card idea made me chuckle because it's actually a great idea! I think this is the first time I've recognised that my parents are starting to decline intellectually due to age and it's quite sobering 🥺

If your mum has nothing to show for the £4000 then I’d consider it a criminal matter; can you involve the police and her bank? If you do find a company name then Perdue trading standards.

I have to say DP’s mum is as sharp as a tack on all financial decisions but will put on a ‘I’m a frail old widow, I can’t do anything until I’ve spoken to my son’ act complete with quavery voice, with the outcome that she gets stonking discounts and still runs things past dp. So two heads are better than one, however on the ball the elderly person is.

There is a card - it's called Sibstar and was on Dragons Den - Sara and Deborah backed it.

Don’t want to worry you but I would call the land registry tomorrow as well because even if it shows no change now, they have had long backlogs in the past so could be pending.
call them to get reassurance.

1400 is a colossal amount to charge to fill in the LPA forms online. The government charge just £164 to submit the two forms so the rest of it must be for the company's time.
Perhaps whatever they did re the trusts is legit but another example of overcharging. How can they defend not giving your mum any paperwork? I would ask them that, and consider Trading Standards if they can't prove what the 4K went on.
BTW do you think your mum is OK or does she have some cognitive problems? I am the same age as her and would not consider paying such a large sum of money to a company I didn't know well without checking them out and taking advice first.

@miniworry regarding the LPAs, for complicated reasons I have had to enquire how much solicitors charge to do LPAs. £1,400 is not out of step with what I have been quoted. If you do it yourself then it is much cheaper.