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Original poster

Universal credit potential investigation

51 replies

LouiseW91 · 20/04/2025 00:04

A friend of mine has recently been contacted about an allegation of a payment that went into her account a few years ago.

Around 5 years ago a large sum of money was put in her account mistakenly, the sum was more than the £16,000 to close an universal credit claim.

She transferred a significant chuck of the money to a close relative who I believe withdrew it and friend kept it in her house as cash. Now during that time the cash was stolen, I believe she spoke to the police but no official statement and their approach was she couldn't prove / had no evidence of who took it so there was nothing they could do. I believe with the rest of the money (which would have been over the £6,000 savings universal credit take deductions off) she kept it in her account and withdrew it over time couple of hundred here, couple of hundred there until there was no more.

I've tried to tell her this evening that even if she had money stolen etc it was still money that should have been declared to universal credit and to them they are just going to see a very large sum of money that went into her account and her intentionally transfer a huge chuck of it to someone else, and the remainder of it withdrew over months when even the reminding balance was enough to have to inform universal credit.

The person who phoned her from universal credit said they are not trying to get her done for fraud but surely fraud is what it really boils down to at the end of the day.

So what can happen next for her, she has a phone call with them this week to discuss what the payment was and what happened to it. Universal credit know the organisation who mistakenly put the money into her bank, I presume they can contact them to see if it was ever arranged for her to get her bank to reverse the transaction so she couldn't get away with telling universal credit that. I presume they could ask her to provide bank statements from when it was put into her account to the months/years following it,.

Could this actually be something she's prosecuted over, or could it fully have her claim closed down or more towards having to repay the overpayments of the universal credit she wasn't entitled to during that time. I'm guessing it would class as deprivation of capital. Would it be best for her to seek some advice from somewhere like citizen advice before this phone call or wait to see what is said during the call to see if they are going to look into it further. How honest is the person dealing with the claim being when he said they are not looking into fraud?.

OP posts:
CheesyRaver · 20/04/2025 00:29

Where was the money from and how was it mistakenly put in the account? Was it supposed to go elsewhere so benefits could continue to be claimed?

How much was it?

Of course they can be done for fraud if it wasn't declared. They would be treated as if they still had the money and would have had the uc claim closed as they would have been expected to live off the savings.

They will probably be asked to pay any money back that they shouldn't have received and could also be prosecuted.

They need to speak to at least Citizens Advice but definitely a solicitor if they are invited in to an interview under caution.

Gingerkittykat · 20/04/2025 01:10

It sounds like fraud.

How much was the sum originally paid into her account?

Am I correct in thinking it was the friend who had the money in her house in cash and not the relative? It looks like a deliberate ploy to hide the money from UC.

I agree with a PP that she needs to get a solicitor involved. I have no idea if they will prosecute/ stop her benefits/ make her payback what was wrongly claimed.

Original poster
LouiseW91 · 20/04/2025 01:10

It was from the local authority. Money was supposed to go into her account, they paid her directly each month for her child's taxis to and from school whoever made the transaction from the local authority made a major mistake of putting the figure in as around £20,000. I believe shortly afterwards the local authority tried to get the money back but obviously couldn't, and she's currently having to repay them,.

In all fairness I'm not entirely sure if she released at the time something like this had to be declared, I believe during that time they were going through some compensation claim and she might have mistakenly though that the money was compensation but as I said to her this evening even a compensation claim would need to be declared and depending on the type of claim would have been be determined by universal credit to be disregarded for a time period.

OP posts:
Beautifulbouquet · 20/04/2025 01:16

The best advice to your friend is to be honest.

The review will be thorough and this sounds like a very unsophisticated fraud.

Fines, public reporting and a criminal record would seem probable.

A solicitor would better than Citizen's Advice as to how to manage co-operationn.

Citizens advice is there really to help people protect their rights. Your 'friend' needs a criminal defence specialist.

Fourfurrymonsters · 20/04/2025 01:17

So your friend effectively stole the money from the LA, even though it was their mistake, didn’t give it back immediately and then tried to hide it in order to keep claiming benefits she knew she wouldn’t be entitled to any longer? I think there’s a word for that.
That’s not a good look is it?

Mickeychampionwhatgoodami · 20/04/2025 01:25

That was a stupid thing to do.
It's fraud.

Original poster
LouiseW91 · 20/04/2025 01:31

Fourfurrymonsters · 20/04/2025 01:17

So your friend effectively stole the money from the LA, even though it was their mistake, didn’t give it back immediately and then tried to hide it in order to keep claiming benefits she knew she wouldn’t be entitled to any longer? I think there’s a word for that.
That’s not a good look is it?

Oh trust me I know it's not a good look I told her all those years ago she should have handed the money back immediately and in the end it would bite her in the arse.

I'm not one bit defending her i knew how serious this all was back then and i am pretty sure i told her it could be classed as fraud if she didnt declare it, around that time her young daughter had recently been diagnosed with cancer, she was coming out of a very controlling abusive relationship I'm not sure at the time she was fully in the right head space and if she fully understood the seriousness of it all, although there are no excuses i can't really answer for her decisions at the time that's on her and it looks like she is having to face the seriousness of it all now.

OP posts:
icreaminbarnsley · 21/04/2025 23:16

The threshold for fraud is intent, and your friend transferring the money to a relative, who then withdrew it in cash would definitely be considered an act with intent to commit fraud. If the telephone call is an interview under caution then she has the right to have a solicitor or any third party there too. If it's just a compliance interview, they may be trying to just fact find (which of course could lead to an interview under caution). Never mind UC, how did she get away with stealing from the LA?

Mickeychampionwhatgoodami · 21/04/2025 23:22

Icecreaminbarnsley.most of us would try and find out if there was extra money in our bank account,I had it a few years ago £80 turned out to be Tesco's because of a mistake they'd made
£20,000 you'd definitely be trying to track down where it came from and why but to transfer it then cash out is intent.

icreaminbarnsley · 21/04/2025 23:26

How honest is the person dealing with the claim being when he said they are not looking into fraud?

I'm very surprised they even said this, they are obviously questioning her about capital that she didn't declare, and that always has the potential to be fraudulent. Best case scenario is that she only has to pay the money she wrongfully claimed back. Her claim may also be closed with immediate effect. I know of a claimant who went on holiday for 3 weeks, had a second trimester miscarriage and couldn't fly back and as a result was outside the UK for one month and 4 days. She got a note in her journal to say her claim had been closed as she had breached the conditions (she didn't inform them she was leaving UK and then stayed outside for more than one month). She had to go to citizens advice and get letters from her GP and MP before they reinstated it, but they made her pay back the 4 days worth of overpayment.

caringcarer · 22/04/2025 00:12

Fourfurrymonsters · 20/04/2025 01:17

So your friend effectively stole the money from the LA, even though it was their mistake, didn’t give it back immediately and then tried to hide it in order to keep claiming benefits she knew she wouldn’t be entitled to any longer? I think there’s a word for that.
That’s not a good look is it?

This friend stole from LA then tried to defraud UC. This person deserves all they get. Benefits are meant for people who really need them and the LA made a mistake and your friend should have informed them and repaid the money. This friend is dishonest.

hereismydog · 22/04/2025 00:34

I’m just amazed that your friend had the brass neck to go to the police about ‘stolen money’ that she stole in the first place!

No sympathy for her, even with the sob story, as she has had all this time to come clean if it had ever been her intention to do so. Would also be examining my own conscience a little more closely if I were you as you’ve known about it all this time and did nothing.

Bjorkdidit · 22/04/2025 04:05

How honest is the person dealing with the claim being when he said they are not looking into fraud

Well if they're from UC (DWP?), then money that has been stolen from the LA is not something they can investigate directly.

But you say that she is currently repaying the money to the LA? Does that mean they've agreed a payment plan and are not taking action about the theft (withdrawing money she knew wasn't hers)?

If this is the case and DWP are happy that she's not benefited from the money because it is being repaid, then it might not affect her UC, but people have gone to prison for a lot less so if what you're saying is true that the LA are allowing her to repay over (presumably considerable) time and not having her prosecuted for theft/fraud then she should count herself extremely lucky.

She needs to co-operate, answer all questions honestly and while the difficulties she was experiencing at the time could have affected her judgement, they're not an excuse or justification and this seems to be a 'when you're in a hole, stop digging' situation.

She probably needs legal advice but I expect she's unable to afford a solicitor but I don't know what options there are for free advice.

Fraudornot · 22/04/2025 09:10

@icreaminbarnsleyhow would they know she was out the country for more than 4 weeks?

Original poster
LouiseW91 · 22/04/2025 18:04

You don't have to feel sorry for her 'sob' story however in the very end her child was going through what no child should ever go through, what would you have had done potentially chucked the mum in prison whilst the child was going through that. I am not going to look at my conscience for knowing when my conscience was on her child needing her mother through most probably one of the most traumatic times of the child's life.

OP posts:
juneisjuly · 22/04/2025 18:12

What an idiot, I couldn’t be friends with someone like that.
I also don’t believe the money was stolen (except when it was initially stolen by her)

FleaBeeBob · 22/04/2025 18:21

So she had x amount each month and then surely £20000 appeared and you say ON ALL FAIRNESS

She only has herself to blame, she should have contacted UC and queries the amount and repaid it in full

LaurieFairyCake · 22/04/2025 18:25

If she’s paying it back then she doesn’t keep the money. So she has to tell them it was like a loan and it’s being paid back.

the problem is her ‘having’ the money. If she pays it back she doesn’t ‘have’ the money.

it’s the same as if she went to a loan company (it’s not the same but for the purposes of this it is) and borrowed the money to buy a car and paid it back.

people on UC sometimes have to do this, actually was common a few years ago when lenders weren’t scrupulous. I know someone who borrowed £10k to buy a car.

NimbleTiger · 22/04/2025 18:57

They will ask where the money has gone and ask for bank statements I had similar with a ppi payment which I used to pay bills/debt and could show the statements.

Hoppinggreen · 22/04/2025 19:01

The money she stole was stolen again?
Ok

LIZS · 22/04/2025 19:06

So she knew where it came from (as opposed to a random deposit which could be money laundering) but did not follow it up with the LA to reverse it and kept it? Yes she can be in trouble for keeping it knowing it was not hers and continuing to claim despite having undeclared “savings”. How was it “stolen” again?

Original poster
LouiseW91 · 22/04/2025 19:16

LaurieFairyCake · 22/04/2025 18:25

If she’s paying it back then she doesn’t keep the money. So she has to tell them it was like a loan and it’s being paid back.

the problem is her ‘having’ the money. If she pays it back she doesn’t ‘have’ the money.

it’s the same as if she went to a loan company (it’s not the same but for the purposes of this it is) and borrowed the money to buy a car and paid it back.

people on UC sometimes have to do this, actually was common a few years ago when lenders weren’t scrupulous. I know someone who borrowed £10k to buy a car.

I can see where you are coming from but even with a legal loan that has a contract and that you are paying back if it takes you over the £16,000 that usually stops entitlement to universal credit surely it still has to be declared and then it's up to universal credit whether to disregard some that's been spent say you get a loan for £21,000, £6,000 goes on a car, you spend 2k on new flooring furniture etc leaving £13,000 that £13,000 still face deductions each month from your entitlement even though you are paying back the loan separately to the loan company.

OP posts:
hiredandsqueak · 22/04/2025 19:24

I can understand how the LA overpaid your friend as our LA is spectacularly lax with financial audits however I don't understand why your friend didn't alert the LA as it's pretty obvious where payments have come from especially when you have had payments previously. Removing and hiding the money in cash doesn't suggest that the friend didn't realise that she wasn't entitled to the money or that she didn't know that she should inform UC. She should be truthful now because she really doesn't have any other option.

Intheway · 22/04/2025 19:24

Some story!

Unexpected money in an account, withdrawn in cash, hidden but stolen and reported but the police weren't interested….some hiding and covering tracks.

Is your friend expecting to tell UC that she hasn't benefitted from the money, because it was stolen ( but she has a crime number). Does she think this will get her off?

StrivingForSleep · 22/04/2025 19:28

Focusing on the UC issue rather than the initial PTB overpayment (which the friend should have informed the LA and returned, of course). While your friend should have informed UC of the PTB, a PTB is not classed as capital for UC purposes, so the £16k limit isn’t relevant. Unfortunately, many UC employees are not aware of this. Not all charity advisors know either. It should be disregarded under Schedule 10 of The Universal Credit Regulations. It is not the parent’s money. It is paid to parent on behalf of their DC in order for the LA to fulfil their statutory duty to meet DC’s needs arising from their disability. It is money instead of the LA commissioning such provision directly.