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Original poster

Universal credit potential investigation

51 replies

LouiseW91 · 20/04/2025 00:04

A friend of mine has recently been contacted about an allegation of a payment that went into her account a few years ago.

Around 5 years ago a large sum of money was put in her account mistakenly, the sum was more than the £16,000 to close an universal credit claim.

She transferred a significant chuck of the money to a close relative who I believe withdrew it and friend kept it in her house as cash. Now during that time the cash was stolen, I believe she spoke to the police but no official statement and their approach was she couldn't prove / had no evidence of who took it so there was nothing they could do. I believe with the rest of the money (which would have been over the £6,000 savings universal credit take deductions off) she kept it in her account and withdrew it over time couple of hundred here, couple of hundred there until there was no more.

I've tried to tell her this evening that even if she had money stolen etc it was still money that should have been declared to universal credit and to them they are just going to see a very large sum of money that went into her account and her intentionally transfer a huge chuck of it to someone else, and the remainder of it withdrew over months when even the reminding balance was enough to have to inform universal credit.

The person who phoned her from universal credit said they are not trying to get her done for fraud but surely fraud is what it really boils down to at the end of the day.

So what can happen next for her, she has a phone call with them this week to discuss what the payment was and what happened to it. Universal credit know the organisation who mistakenly put the money into her bank, I presume they can contact them to see if it was ever arranged for her to get her bank to reverse the transaction so she couldn't get away with telling universal credit that. I presume they could ask her to provide bank statements from when it was put into her account to the months/years following it,.

Could this actually be something she's prosecuted over, or could it fully have her claim closed down or more towards having to repay the overpayments of the universal credit she wasn't entitled to during that time. I'm guessing it would class as deprivation of capital. Would it be best for her to seek some advice from somewhere like citizen advice before this phone call or wait to see what is said during the call to see if they are going to look into it further. How honest is the person dealing with the claim being when he said they are not looking into fraud?.

OP posts:
Blondeshavemorefun · 22/04/2025 19:29

Fourfurrymonsters · 20/04/2025 01:17

So your friend effectively stole the money from the LA, even though it was their mistake, didn’t give it back immediately and then tried to hide it in order to keep claiming benefits she knew she wouldn’t be entitled to any longer? I think there’s a word for that.
That’s not a good look is it?

This

£20k went in. Wasn’t hers. She knew this. Kept it as transferred it

didn’t she know the taxi /council would want it back

it’s theft and fraud

something2say · 22/04/2025 19:36

To me, this is a classic example of 'people who think benefits are a way of life' - do this, get that, fiddle here, fiddle there. They make a difficult situation worse for other people.

Original poster
LouiseW91 · 22/04/2025 19:42

Intheway · 22/04/2025 19:24

Some story!

Unexpected money in an account, withdrawn in cash, hidden but stolen and reported but the police weren't interested….some hiding and covering tracks.

Is your friend expecting to tell UC that she hasn't benefitted from the money, because it was stolen ( but she has a crime number). Does she think this will get her off?

I said to her the other day Universal credit wouldn't give two craps if it was stolen and there was actually evidence and someone went to prison, or if it had been stolen but there was no evidence, no proper police involvement etc. To them she received a significant amount of money that wouldn't have entitled her to universal, they are going to want to know why she withdrew a chuck it of in the beginning, want to know what was left over in the bank, etc etc. I do not know if she thinks she will get off with it, I have told her she's at risk of some trouble I just didn't know the extent of what could actually happen to her to be able to tell her the possible outcomes.

OP posts:
Original poster
LouiseW91 · 22/04/2025 19:55

StrivingForSleep · 22/04/2025 19:28

Focusing on the UC issue rather than the initial PTB overpayment (which the friend should have informed the LA and returned, of course). While your friend should have informed UC of the PTB, a PTB is not classed as capital for UC purposes, so the £16k limit isn’t relevant. Unfortunately, many UC employees are not aware of this. Not all charity advisors know either. It should be disregarded under Schedule 10 of The Universal Credit Regulations. It is not the parent’s money. It is paid to parent on behalf of their DC in order for the LA to fulfil their statutory duty to meet DC’s needs arising from their disability. It is money instead of the LA commissioning such provision directly.

Edited

Thank you for that information. So say the £16k isn't relevant due to the money actually not being the parents, surely if the parent has not used that money on what it's intended for on the need of the child can this then become a problem with universal credit as they were using the money as their own financial gain or is that between the parent and the local authority

OP posts:
StrivingForSleep · 22/04/2025 20:45

It would be down to the LA to pursue (it appears they have if the friend is repaying the money).

Bountychocolate · 22/04/2025 20:51

What triggered UC looking into this and finding out about it OP? I understand they do occasional bank statement checks but they normally only ask for very recent statements. Is there something in the bigger picture?

Intheway · 22/04/2025 21:26

LouiseW91 · 22/04/2025 19:55

Thank you for that information. So say the £16k isn't relevant due to the money actually not being the parents, surely if the parent has not used that money on what it's intended for on the need of the child can this then become a problem with universal credit as they were using the money as their own financial gain or is that between the parent and the local authority

Show quote history

Maybe two separate issues, which don't impact on each other.

The taxi money paid to her was an error and if it wasn't, the money would have gone out to pay for the taxi. Maybe she thought that because it was ‘stolen’ she would not have to pay it back.
That doesn't explain why she withdrew a massive amount of cash that wasn't hers.

The UC might not be affected by this, as even if the money was paid genuinely into her account, it was to pay for the service provided (the taxi) so no ‘profit’ for her.

UC will likely want proff through her account of where the money came from and why. The LA it seems are being repaid.

icreaminbarnsley · 23/04/2025 06:57

Fraudornot · 22/04/2025 09:10

@icreaminbarnsleyhow would they know she was out the country for more than 4 weeks?

They told her that they have access to names/flights leaving and entering from/into the UK. I assume they had reason to believe that she had left and overstayed, rather than them routinely checking this.

icreaminbarnsley · 23/04/2025 07:01

Bountychocolate · 22/04/2025 20:51

What triggered UC looking into this and finding out about it OP? I understand they do occasional bank statement checks but they normally only ask for very recent statements. Is there something in the bigger picture?

A standard review asks for 4 months statements, but often this triggers an enhanced review, where they can ask for years of statements. I came across a case recently where the claimant had to provide statements for 12 years, including accounts that had been closed for years.

Original poster
LouiseW91 · 23/04/2025 07:25

Bountychocolate · 22/04/2025 20:51

What triggered UC looking into this and finding out about it OP? I understand they do occasional bank statement checks but they normally only ask for very recent statements. Is there something in the bigger picture?

As far as I know they received a report about the payment.

OP posts:
Gilo2024 · 23/04/2025 07:43

Why didn’t she pay it back to the company?

BoobsOnTheMoon · 23/04/2025 08:01

StrivingForSleep · 22/04/2025 19:28

Focusing on the UC issue rather than the initial PTB overpayment (which the friend should have informed the LA and returned, of course). While your friend should have informed UC of the PTB, a PTB is not classed as capital for UC purposes, so the £16k limit isn’t relevant. Unfortunately, many UC employees are not aware of this. Not all charity advisors know either. It should be disregarded under Schedule 10 of The Universal Credit Regulations. It is not the parent’s money. It is paid to parent on behalf of their DC in order for the LA to fulfil their statutory duty to meet DC’s needs arising from their disability. It is money instead of the LA commissioning such provision directly.

Edited

Aha! Completely irrelevant to the thread but this is info I've been trying to establish for a while, thank you. I was offered a significant PTB last year which I turned down because I couldn't get a clear answer anywhere on whether it would affect my UC or not.

Original poster
LouiseW91 · 23/04/2025 08:09

Gilo2024 · 23/04/2025 07:43

Why didn’t she pay it back to the company?

I guess only she can answer for that one. I told her all those years ago legally it was theft whether the Local Authority made the mistake of putting it in her account and that by law you are obiligated to return the money to the sender but that was her decision. That is down to the local authority and her, they haven't persued her on theft which I guess she should count her lucky stars for and set up a payment plan.

OP posts:
hattie43 · 23/04/2025 08:45

It’s sounds dodgy as fuck tbh

Fraudornot · 23/04/2025 09:14

@icreaminbarnsleyI would be really surprised if they did this routinely. It would take so much effort

StrivingForSleep · 23/04/2025 09:37

@BoobsOnTheMoon I am sorry not knowing led to you being unable to make an informed decision. There really needs to be more information around.

You are not alone. I have seen others refuse PTBs even though it would be better for them because they are worried about UC. I have also seen parents refuse DPs for therapies, PAs, etc. and one parent who told the LA they wanted the LA to commission the whole EOTAS package when the parent really wanted some funded via DPs because they were worried about UC. And one parent came to me in a panic not knowing what to do when a well known organisation told her their UC would stop when it wouldn't (and didn't)!

allmycats · 23/04/2025 09:41

So, you are friends with a self confessed thief and fraudster who has gone to considerable effort to hide their crimes and you want advice as to how they may be able to get away with it?

BoobsOnTheMoon · 23/04/2025 09:48

StrivingForSleep · 23/04/2025 09:37

@BoobsOnTheMoon I am sorry not knowing led to you being unable to make an informed decision. There really needs to be more information around.

You are not alone. I have seen others refuse PTBs even though it would be better for them because they are worried about UC. I have also seen parents refuse DPs for therapies, PAs, etc. and one parent who told the LA they wanted the LA to commission the whole EOTAS package when the parent really wanted some funded via DPs because they were worried about UC. And one parent came to me in a panic not knowing what to do when a well known organisation told her their UC would stop when it wouldn't (and didn't)!

Can I just double check though, does the PTB still not affect UC if the parent keeps the money and provides transport themselves? If I used it to pay someone else to do the transport, it would count as their earnings. But if I keep it and do the transport myself, is it my earnings or not?

StrivingForSleep · 23/04/2025 09:52

@BoobsOnTheMoon no, it doesn’t (shouldn’t! As I said, some UC employees are unaware of this) class as your earnings.

Ihad2Strokes · 23/04/2025 09:54

StrivingForSleep · 22/04/2025 19:28

Focusing on the UC issue rather than the initial PTB overpayment (which the friend should have informed the LA and returned, of course). While your friend should have informed UC of the PTB, a PTB is not classed as capital for UC purposes, so the £16k limit isn’t relevant. Unfortunately, many UC employees are not aware of this. Not all charity advisors know either. It should be disregarded under Schedule 10 of The Universal Credit Regulations. It is not the parent’s money. It is paid to parent on behalf of their DC in order for the LA to fulfil their statutory duty to meet DC’s needs arising from their disability. It is money instead of the LA commissioning such provision directly.

Edited

But how does that work in this case when it was a huge overpayment?? Say it was meant to be 2000 but they put in 20,000 by mistake (which she foolishly didn't return) wouldn't that be in class as 18,000 in savings as far as UC is concerned?

StrivingForSleep · 23/04/2025 09:57

@Ihad2Strokes no, it shouldn’t. The overpayment is between the LA and the friend. That’s not to say the friend acted correctly in not informing the LA and repaying. She absolutely should have, but that is separate to the matter of whether it is capital for UC purposes or not.

Ihad2Strokes · 23/04/2025 10:04

StrivingForSleep · 23/04/2025 09:57

@Ihad2Strokes no, it shouldn’t. The overpayment is between the LA and the friend. That’s not to say the friend acted correctly in not informing the LA and repaying. She absolutely should have, but that is separate to the matter of whether it is capital for UC purposes or not.

Edited

Interesting. Thank you..

Where does someone needing advice from someone like you find you or someone like you in real life?

StrivingForSleep · 23/04/2025 10:14

@Ihad2Strokes it depends what you want support with. I support parents of disabled DC, not just with benefits but also things like EHCPs, DFGs, social care provision, continuing care, etc. I now work part time TTO for an organisation who supports parents of disabled DC. I have disabled DC myself, so where possible I do a lot of the paperwork overnight. So comes through that organisation, but I also do a lot outside of that via word of mouth, etc.

Depending on what you want support with you could contact Contact, IPSEA, SOSSEN or ask around locally for someone/a local organisation/charity/CIC (I would avoid SENDIASS unless you happen to live in one of the areas where they are good - too many are not). Even if they can’t support you, they should be able to sign post you to someone who can help with what you need.

Missey85 · 23/04/2025 10:16

So she knew it wasn't hers then purpously gave it to somebody to hide? Yes that's fraud

Original poster
LouiseW91 · 23/04/2025 13:13

allmycats · 23/04/2025 09:41

So, you are friends with a self confessed thief and fraudster who has gone to considerable effort to hide their crimes and you want advice as to how they may be able to get away with it?

Where have I asked for advice on how to get away with it? I have asked for the possible outcomes that could happen in a case like this, so I could advice her on what indeed can happen if universal credit wanted to take this further and whether she should seek some legal advice now before a phone call with them or wait to see what is said during this phone call.

Just because I am friends with someone does not mean I agree with their actions

OP posts:
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