What should we do?

[Thehouseofmarvels]

My fiancés gran died in 2012. She had three children, his mother, R, his aunt, S and a son J, with downs syndrome. In 2006 she wrote a will. It said that when she died, that R could choose live in her house to visit J in his care home until he died. She had to move in within 6 months. R was 19 when J was born and was not close to him but she convinced her mother she had seen the error of her ways and would make up for lost time. When Gran died R immediately tried to rent out Gran's house, and it became clear she had lied about wanting to develop more of a relationship with her brother. S and R fell out and R quickly stopped visiting J. The will created a trust. The trust must be ended when R either chose not to live in the house or J dies. When the trust is ended, one third of the sale price of the house should go to S, one third would go to J if alive or family members of the trustees choice if deceased. One third would go to R and her children but could be divided any way the trustees see fit. S and a solicitor are trustees. R did not move in or do any repairs and the house has sat empty for 11 years. S did nothing despite being a trustee as she stopped speaking to her sister and found the idea of trying to get the keys back too stressful. She struggles with anxiety. The solicitor went along with whatever she wanted. J has now died, and she has finally got the keys back. R had not seen her brother in over a decade and did not attend the funeral. S told her cousin that she intends to divide things 50/50 between her and her sister and will not involve grandchildren as ' it's best to keep things simple as the whole situation stresses me out '. The cousin pointed out that R is in her 80s and her half might get spent on care home fees but S said ' what R ends up spending her money on has nothing to do with me'. The only grandchildren are my fiance and his siblings as S could not have children. He is not currently speaking to any of his immediate family and neither is S, for unrelated reasons. We are currently saving up to buy a house, get married and have a baby. S has no other family, is mid seventies and lives in a 6 bedroom house in a rural area. We suspect she has some expectations that we will care for her when she is elderly as she has nobody else. As she is choosing to give half of the family trust fund to my fiancés abusive mother that he doesn't speak to, should we tell her we refuse to do anything for her when she needs care? Both his parents were abusive, and she knew that her sister's husband was battering her sister and the kids, but she chose to stay out of the situation as she didn't believe she should get involved in someone else's marriage/ family problems. Fiancé saw her once a year at Christmas despite the fact she lived 3 or four miles away, however he has built a relationship with her as an adult. We aren't sure if refusing to help her when she is old is fair, because she has one elderly cousin and us, but we are really disappointed she couldn't help us from the estate with the cost of a house deposit. We have not spoken to her about this directly as we do not want to be grabby plus she is very stubborn when she makes her mind up. When she is in her 80s and likely to need help, we will have small children.

S is twice widowed. A lot of her assets came from her second husband. The cousin thinks she is leaving everything to his children. They cannot help when she is elderly as they are close to her in age ( she a married rich much older man) and live four hours away.

Grandchildren don't always get money left to them in a will. My father left his money to me and my siblings when he passed away and nothing to the grandchildren. You may not have to look after your aunt, she may decide that when she needs help she will either pay for carers or go in to a care home.

I’m really sorry but the inheritance isn’t your fiancé’s money. It was left to the generation before him- R, S and J. I understand that R is his mother and was abusive, but that is not a reason to pressure S to skip R to give any of R’s money directly to your fiancé. It is highly unlikely the trust says it is meant to be at the trustee’s choice to skip R and give some to R’s children. Usually any bequests directly to grandchildren would be in the will.

“We aren't sure if refusing to help her when she is old is fair, because she has one elderly cousin and us, but we are really disappointed she couldn't help us from the estate with the cost of a house deposit. We have not spoken to her about this directly as we do not want to be grabby”

It would be blackmail of a vulnerable elderly aunt to make them giving you money for a house deposit conditional on helping them in their old age. It would have to come from her share of her inheritance. You are not obligated to help relatives in their old age, you can abandon them. It’s the trying to milk them for money that is blackmail.

@MercanDede The third that is for J says ' If the trust is dissolved after J dies, my trustees may give his portion to any beneficiary or beneficiaries ( basically children or grandchildren) that my trustees see fit. The other third is for R and her children and can be distributed amongst R and her children in any way the trustees see fit. It's made really clear the estate is to benefit the whole family and is not limited to children. It's basically a family trust fund to provide for any financial needs anyone in the family might have. It's not just for the generation above. The aunt is thinking of just going halves as she thinks it's easier. We do not want to abandon an elderly lady but I'm only going to but she lives in a big house an hour and a half away in a very rural village. My partner is disabled and cannot drive so I would need to drive him there, we would then need to bring any small children we had. She has dropped one or two hits about she feels happier about getting older knowing she has us. I have a full time job and a side hustle which I do evenings and weekends, so I'd lose out financially too. Should we just say we will not be looking after her when she's older but not say why?

She's in her 80s. She had a complicated family setup. If she wants to distribute J's estate 50/50, then I don't blame her.

Your posts come across that you want to punish her not passing any of the trust to your fiancé, by not being her carers. That doesn't portray you in a good light.

If I were you, I'd live in the here and now. Don't worry about whether or not she's expecting you to care for her. Don't worry about how your (potential) children will cope with the travel. Don't push for a distribution which will provoke your fiancés mother into disputing the distribution.

Try to support your fiancé to put his past behind him. Money won't make up for the unhappiness he endured. Live a good and happy life and break from the past.

@MercanDede It's annoying that the portion that would have belonged to J, half of it will go to someone who did not grow up with him, did not visit him, did not see him for the last 8 years of his life and did not attend his funeral. My fiancé was very close to him and visited him whenever he could. There's no legal reason R should get anything from his third, other than S things the whole estate in halves is easier. We will not argue or be grabby but if she starts hinting more about needing help, or is being there for her, I'm not going to be massively pleased. As partner is physically disabled this will mean a lot of work for me. I'm only 30 and have a demanding job ( teacher) and side business as partner can only work very part time.

@Thehouseofmarvels If you can’t look after her or don’t want to, unless she has specifically asked this of you, I wouldn’t say anything. It would certainly be grabby to tell her that you won’t care for her because your fiancé hasn’t been left any money!

You suggest there are several reasons why it would be difficult to care for her, which is fine. I fail to see how the situation would change if you were left money. She isn’t going to be living down the road, you will still have children and a fiancé.

Be very careful. If I heard that a family member was being coerced into giving money to a relative, in the hope that they may one day care for them (or may not), I’d be calling the Police. She’s elderly and this is not okay!

Whether or not you like the aunt, it’s her mum’s money. I can’t believe you’d threaten a relative to not care for them if they don’t give you money. I can’t believe what I’m reading; what a toxic family.

The money should have gone to J when he was alive, as requested by the mum in her will. But your fiancé does not have a right to it because he was nicer to J than R ever was. This is so twisted. Presumably he visited J because he wanted to rather than to access money? (Although who knows from this thread)

@gazelda Basically she's been dropping hints in the last week or two where fiancé feels that she's expecting him to say yes I'll be there for you if you start having falls or whatever and I was like, well she's not exactly bending over backwards to help us? I feel we should tell him sooner rather than later to make alternative arrangements.

@Namechanged4obviousreasons Basically I have a side business weekends and evenings. This is because fiancé is disabled and can only work part time. Financial help might allow me to give up the business which would then free us up to give her more support. We could also pay a babysitter rather than having to drag small children over to her place. She has not asked bluntly but has started dropping hints.

@TeenLifeMum I have a side business and a full time job. Partner is disabled and cannot drive or work more than part time. Financial help might allow me to give up the side business to help her. As partner is disabled it would be me more than him doing the caring and I would always need to dive him there.

I'm afraid you aren't coming across very well.

If you can't / won't look after her that's your choice. But don't try and link this to the money issue. That's totally separate tbh. Well it should be, except you seem to be using it as part justification for stepping back.

The will was ambiguous and now the trustees can do whatever they want. 50-50 between remaining children is perfectly reasonable and it's pretty shocking that you are SO aggrieved that you aren't getting a share. You have no right to expect anything.

@2dogsandabudgie She's not my aunt she's my fiancés. I think you are right and we will have to be honest with her that she will need to be prepared to arrange her own care/ go into a home. It's not like she ever looked after him when he was little, she never even babysat.

@MixedPeel27 I guess that it's a combination of her dropping hints that she hopes we will always be there for her combined with knowing fiancé was getting constantly beaten by his Dad but ( I don't get involved with other people's family problems ect) not helping us financially when she could. They were fairly low contact for many years and she has only pushed for a closer relationship since she turned 70. On the one hand we don't want to be the evil people who abandon and old woman, but on the other hand fiancé feels a bit resentful that she never helps us; it feels one sided. I think we will just say we can't afford to do any care due to his disability and my second job and leave it at that.

Typically a trust has to follow the laws of inheritance where you are (England, Wales etc) when a beneficiary dies and only allows inheritance to flow down, not sideways. So this bit:
‘If the trust is dissolved after J dies, my trustees may give his portion to any beneficiary or beneficiaries ( basically children or grandchildren) that my trustees see fit.’
The children or grandchildren mentioned here would be J’s children if he had any, and his grandchildren if their parent (his child) also predeceased. It wouldn’t be referring to nephews and nieces. The Trustee’s choices are limited by inheritance law.

As J had no spouse and no children, the next in line to inherit would be his parents, but since they predeceased, the next in line after that are his siblings: R and S in equal shares. So this “It's annoying that the portion that would have belonged to J, half of it will go to someone who did not grow up with him, did not visit him, did not see him for the last 8 years of his life and did not attend his funeral.” May be annoying but it is in line with the usual inheritance laws, which a Trustee cannot over-rule.

“There's no legal reason R should get anything from his third, other than S things the whole estate in halves is easier.” Yes there is, inheritance of a Trust cannot go against inheritance law. R can gift her inheritance to your fiancé, but that may be deprivation of assets.

As you can’t help your fiancé’s aunt or mother with elder care, it is fair to tell them why you cannot- your fiancé is disabled, you will have young children, etc. This is not uncommon and nothing to be ashamed of. You should also when the time comes an in when they can’t live independently, inform adult social care because they will not only assume you can, but will pressure you.

With your fiancé having come from an abusive home, in which his mother R was abusive and well as his Dad and his aunt S was complicit, then he doesn’t owe either R or S anything in their old age. When you raise a child or have nephew/neice, you as an adult should at the very least ensure a loving home. This is paying it forward so that the child would then be there for you when you are elderly and the one dependent on them. They let down your fiancé when he was a child and dependent on them in a way that means he cannot abandon someone who abandoned him first. That isn’t something that can be repaired for made up for. This is the consequence of their abuse of him as a child. He owes them nothing, he’s not abandoning them because they abandoned him as a child.

It’s not resentment so much as justifiable anger. Why should he (and you) take care of them when they did not take care of him when that was the bare minimum they should have done?

He has lost more than inheritance, he has lost the childhood he should have had. I’d encourage him to seek some therapy as an adult survivor of child abuse.

@MercanDede You are referring to the law of intestacy.The J portion was never owned by him it was owned by the trust. The personal possessions of J were divided this way because he owned them, half were given to S and half were given to R. His inheritance did not get divided like this. My brother works as solicitor and explained to me that only Jo's books, clothes ect fall into his estate and the trust is the legal owner. When the will talks about ' my ' beneficiaries it refers to the beneficiaries of the grandmother. My brother has been seen the will and says we are right in thinking that the portion for J can go to any descendant of the Gran. S can give money to other members of the family and has chosen to divide it between herself and her sister. That's her choice and we must respect it, but we also aren't going to be able to afford to give up the side hustle to look after her. I think we will explain to her we can't afford to be unpaid careers and just tell her to make elderly care arrangements. She will probably be upset though which is awkward.

@MercanDede He is not in contact with his parents or siblings. He has had therapy for complex PTSD and OCD. He's also physically disabled. He needs more as is still not well. S was never abusive but knew what was going on but chose not to get involved as didn't think it was her place to get involved in his parents difficult marriage. Kept her distance when he was growing up. I know we should not care about money but my brother insists that legally she is able to help him from the trust fund. She also told her cousin ' anything other than half each and R will kick off'. She's been really kind and sweet and lovely these last few years but fiancé has also given her a lot of emotional support when several of her friends died and when J died but had not much back. If we stay in contact and she does not arrange her elderly care properly we will have to organise something which is not ideal.

When she drops hints next time explain that you’re both spread thinly transport, child, job, time wise.

@Thehouseofmarvels I wouldn’t mention finances at all. If she asked about caring, you live a distance, your fiancé is disabled and you may have children to look after by then. No one would expect you’d have time for caring duties. Mentioning the money is a little bit manipulative.

Inheritance and care are separate. She cannot guarantee you’ll care for her indefinitely if she gives you money. Your fiancé is disabled and if unable to work, how would he be able to care for someone else. If you’ve worked a full time job, you can’t palm kids off on a babysitter constantly and care is usual a regular thing heeded daily, not nipping round for an hour once a week!

Ok, as you have seen both will and trust, I now trust your version.
Many beneficiaries don’t get to read copies of the will and trust in full.

I presumed it was a trust for his benefit because he was not mentally competent (Downs didn’t you say?) so he would still be the owner until his death.

It sounds more like the type of trust used to bypass inheritance tax rather than a trust to provide for a severely disabled man.

@Thanks for saying we don't owe S anything. It's hard because she has been sweet and kind to him and he's a nice person who always tries to do the right thing. S having the ability to give financial help from the estate but choosing to divide it in half because it's easier for her is a bit like how she ignored the abuse and saw him once a year at Christmas. She can't deal with anything stressful as she gets anxious. Fiancé is only in contact with her and her cousin, has no other family as Dad's side from abroad and never really knew them.

This is absolutely nothing to do with you.
Nothing at all so I'm not sure why you think your opinion matters.

S has enough to be dealing with.

@MercanDede When this was all written J was in a care home and Gran was 86. I think originally the will said all my assets divided amongst my children equally but someone pointed out that the council might want Johnny's inheritance from his mother spend on his care, and that he needed a proper way to protect his mother rather than just the vaugue idea that 'someone' would use it to take him on nice holidays. R then persuaded Gran that she should be allowed to live in the house as she regretted not spending much time with J over the year. She promised to visit him once a week. This never happened, she just tried to rent the house out to lodgers.