PIP Mandatory Review

[swallowedAfly]

I've been awarded the lower rate of mobility and nothing for daily living. The report has flagrant lies ie X eats every day when it is clearly audible on the recordings I had to chase for weeks that when I asked I hadn't eaten for nearly 3 days. The assessor felt the need to report to safeguarding that my son was a young carer because of the levels of support he had to give in daily living yet she awarded zero points which I find bizarre. She's put zero for toilet stuff despite knowing and repeatedly being told and empathising (again clearly audible) that I had to use incontinence pads and have spare clothing etc.

I feel like it's a mistake like she hasn't listened to the second recording or pressed send without filling in all the fields or something but I know in reality they do just lie and try to award nothing. I had nearly 3 hours on the phone and had to take a break.

I've only given a couple of examples here to give you an idea of how contradictory things are.

I'm currently doing my mandatory review application.

I'm wondering is mandatory review just a tick box exercise that never achieves anything but is meant to discourage you further or do decisions ever/often get changed based on them?

I've made clear on the form that if it is turned down I will be going to appeal and will seek support and collate further evidence etc so they know I'm not going to be bullied out of continuing.

I confess I've been a bit devastated by the whole thing. I was incredibly distressed in the lead up to the call, had put off applying for a long time because of how humiliating the whole process seemed to be and I had to reveal deeply personal things during the process and be reported to doctors and ss because she classified my son as a young carer.

A friend has reassured me that the fact they've awarded anything ie. the lower rate for mobility (which I actually thought I had less chance of getting than the daily living amount which I without doubt even to the meanest interpretation qualify for the lower amount of and I would argue possibly even the higher rate but I would have accepted the lower) means I have a strong claim as they try to get away with awarding nothing. I just can't comprehend how she has awarded zero points of all of that side.

Any advice on whether mandatory review ever achieves anything or I should just start preparing myself for appeal, support and encouragement or anything else is welcome. I have found it hellish so far.

Why haven't you eaten for 3 days? Is it physical/mh issues or do you literally not have food? Has your son been able to eat?

I hadn't eaten for 3 days because I was so anxious about the PIP call plus I was having a very bad week for fatigue and incontinence. I have a combo of mental health issues and physical issues. Just the perfect storm really.

My son is 16 and very capable of cooking and feeding himself, plus I think he'd been to his girlfriends for dinner during that time and has an open invitation from my parents down the road any time he wants for meals. There was plenty of food in the house.

He is not neglected or abused in case that is what you are assuming. He just lives with a disabled parent.

There are two schools of thought about MRs. One is that they they give a reasonable chance of getting a decision changed. The other is that they're merely a turnkey to access the Judicial Tribunal. Latterly I've tended to the former. Put some effort into the MR; if you fail there it's still useful prep for the Tribunal.

The issue with the Health Care Assessors is well known. Anybody who's done any work in the area has their own tale of HCA reports that seem to be for a different person to the one in front of them.

Ask for an MR. Focus on what you cannot do for each of the descriptors. You can reference the DWP guidance to help focus on the key issues and the points available.

While it's worth pointing out that the Assessor's judgements are false and you think they've played fast/loose with facts the detail is a rabbit hole you're best keeping out of - a laserlike focus on you and what you can/cannot do.

Hope this helps.

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/benefits/sick-or-disabled-people-and-carers/pip/appeals/apply-to-tribunal/#:~:text=Getting%20help%20with%20your%20appeal,they're%20not%20always%20available.

So sorry you are in this situation. I would suggest contacting your local Citizens Advice to see if they can help you with the MR and tribunal if required. In my experience decisions are more often changed at tribunal. If you're successful with challenging the decision you should get a backdated payment. But sorry that does not help right now.

I found the MR was just another unfortunate hurdle to pass through before being awarded.

I got 0 points on my initial application and another 0 at MR stage. 18 months after initially applying and before I was given a tribunal date I got a random call saying it had been looked at again and I was getting high rate care and low rate mobility.

in conclusion I think the whole process is a random, disjointed mess. Keep plodding on, I know it’s hard but you should get what you deserve in the end.

It does help, thank you. I've done the form which has very little room and I'm going to do a separate document going through every descriptor on the daily living section with the points descriptors from citizens advice in front of me. Some of them are so obvious - like with medication for example, I clearly on the form and in the recorded assessment say that I set a number of alarms and use an app to remember to prompt me to take medications - think that's only worth 1 or 2 points but it's definitely not zero. I use incontinence pads - again not a high scorer but is an inarguable descriptor - no room for subjective interpretation.

Another stupid one is she says I go to work most days. I have worked for a maximum of 6 non consecutive weeks in the last 12 months. It's just mad. I almost want to believe it's a mistake because having to tell someone really private stuff that you spend much of time hiding, masking and feeling ashamed of only for them to then outright lie about you is just - frankly I feel kind of violated. Is that really dramatic or have others felt the same about the process? It's all sweet voice and sympathy. She also writes something really, imo, offensive about how I am clearly intelligent therefore she doesn't think I'd have problems dealing with bills. This in relation to mental health symptoms. I will be putting that in my MR in order to counter it - mental health doesn't discriminate based on IQ - it reads like she assumes people who suffer badly with MH issues must be thick.

Jesus! 18 months and you hadn't even got an appeal date yet? Presumably they were reviewing cases on the appeals waiting list to try and slash the numbers knowing damn well there were thousands that would definitely pass under appeal.

@swallowedAfly contact these people. I follow them on Facebook and not yet had to use them but they seem to be very good at getting claimants what they are entitled to
https://www.fightback4justice.co.uk/

Did you simply tell the assessor this info or did you back it up with independent evidence? In my experience they don’t believe you if if the information comes from you but if, for example, your line manager, writes a supporting statement there are no issues with being awarded support.

I haven't got time or energy to get further evidence at this stage. It took weeks of chasing to get the recordings from Capita. In lots of places the recording is the evidence where things have been used as, 'X stated that..... therefore...' and I clearly have not stated that and instead said the complete opposite so I've corrected, referred to recording and put the correct descriptor that should have been used. I've listed the evidence I can produce and will have if I have to go to appeal but am not well enough to chase around for currently (plus my psychiatrist is literally the only dr in the mental health team now so despite my GP writing to him saying I urgently need another appointment it's impossible and my support worker has gone off long term sick and won't be replaced in her absence. Services are shambles here (and presume everywhere at the minute).

I've also made clear that I'm hope common sense at mandatory review will change the decision and we won't need to waste public funds on an appeal process on a decision that is so obviously wrong and that if I do have to go to appeal I will pay someone to represent and support me if needs be and that I'll be writing to my MP for their help. I haven't said it threateningly just in a 'so you know' type way to dispel any notion that I'll be discouraged.

They have awarded the mobility element so anything that relies on me having a pip award would be covered by that and currently I'm still employed on sick pay so I'm not desperate for the money right now and know it would be backdated if I win on appeal. By the appeal stage I would also have been dismissed on the grounds of ill health (I've told them this is imminent) and possibly have been granted ill health retirement by my pension provider which would make their judgement look even more unfair.

I know you're going to say get evidence but it would take weeks. First available psych appointments for psychiatrist are in February and my alternative is to write to him and enclose my PIP application and ask him to prepare a report which I will do in the event of them not overturning the decision but it's too late in the day for that now.

I'm also hoping that having had to fight my corner with Capita already to get past their lies and incompetence at emailing through links to a recording (weeks of claiming it had been sent even with me saying there must be a fault with your system because I'm getting the texts with passwords each time but never getting the email with the linki then ages of ignoring my emails and sending a cd which I'd already told them wouldn't give me access because I and most of the population hasn't had the means to play a cd in over a decade) and ask who is their ombudsman and threatening to complain to them and DWP they already know I can't be deterred.

If what they're doing is hoping I will be put off and just give up, which I suspect is the model they employ to keep down successful claims, then hopefully they'll abandon that strategy because it's clear it won't work. I've also got two further full months where I've been unable to work since the assessment and am signed off for another month and a half already - so they can hide behind that if they need to saying that at the time I'd only been off for a few days (despite having only been back at work for a few days before that) so the extra absence since means they can now award. Does that make sense?

It's all so cynical and imo outright evil. Like so many systems they're relying on people being ill informed or just too tired and despairing to know and be able to advocate for their rights.

I am so sorry you are going through this. Surely, the fact you have a Support Worker shows you need help. Are you under the local community mental health team? Can they do a letter confirming the support you need? Also, you mention your Psychiatrist, you'd think being able to name them, give contact details etc, would prove you have mental health issues and that the assessors would have take you seriously. These people are heartless, good luck with the MR.

How long have you worked for and how have you managed to keep a job?

I guess from their perspective, people who are low functioning are who need the most help.

Anyone been through all this and got their in the end? I basically don't think I'm ever going to be fit to work again - I've dealt with disability all my life and acquired another one due to a near death experience and radical surgery. When I've been able to work, I've worked. Years ago I used to get DLA and incapacity benefit (pre tories) but came off in about 2013. I'd taken a part time job that I was just about managing because it was very flexible, I had control over whether I had to interact with people or not and a truly fantastic boss. I had heard such horror stories about the humiliations of assessments that I just couldn't face trying to renew DLA when my award ran out.

I survived many years through working tax credit and bits and pieces of self employed work from home all the while technically working 'enough' to avoid having to deal with the likes of work coaches or job centres. Not because I wasn't ill but because I was terrified of dealing with them and could just about make things work under the tax credit system.

I've been in the job I'm in now for 5 years but with near constant absence issues. I had to have long absence after my surgery then returned for a while but the disability resulting from the surgery meant another long period of absence. I've had to have a few days here and a couple of weeks there every year even in years there weren't long term absence proceedings and just those how can you improve your attendance informal meetings. In the last 12 months I've had a spell of 7 months of work and gone through the absence management proceedings to very near the end then a very gentle phased return with only a few days off during and it was made very clear to me that any further episode of significant absence would mean entering the process for dismissal.

I'm nearly 50, I'm exhausted, I've battled with health stuff my whole life and I just can't anymore. I spent much of the last year suicidal and torn apart between wanting to be gone and knowing what it would do to my son and a lot of that was because the thought of having to go back to work was terrifying. I sleep 3 or 4 hours a night and am constantly exhausted and way sub par cognitively. I know I can't work anymore if I want to alive for my son. My next battle is going to have to be trying to get early retirement on the grounds of ill health.

All these battles are so exhausting. People who think that we're trying to diddle the system or get out of working seriously need to do one (politest term I can think of). I actually loved my job but it's gotten harder and harder for me to cope with until I've had to face facts before it kills me.

There's no one to write a letter with support worker off sick and psychiatrist too busy for even a phone call appointment. I'm shocked, though I shouldn't be, that there is only one doctor on the whole team now and he's the consultant. Also only one support worker who works with female patients and when she goes off sick they don't even bother to call her patients and let them know and check their ok, remind them of emergency numbers etc.

And yes, given all the services are on their needs the fact you've been put under the community mental health team and a psychiatrist and are not being discharged from their care should speak volumes in itself but as far as I could tell they don't take account at all of how things have changed since covid. Eg. asking when you last SAW your GP. I literally get a phonecall from a different doctor, sometimes a locum, every time. All of the long term doctors and those who you might have had a relationship with have left. There is no way to make an appointment and have regular check ins anymore at my surgery - it's call on the day and go through their triage system or nothing and as I'm under the mental health team (which they assume has staff) they will direct me to them anyway or say we can't do anything because your psychiatrist has to approve. Hence the doctor writing to the psychiatrist saying I needed urgent review.

My psychiatrist is absolutely lovely but he clearly only has so many hours in the day. They also asked hilarious things like when did you last see your consultant for your physical condition. Like? Do they really think people without life threatening conditions are getting regular care from consultants?

Sorry - I meant to say thank you for your kindness Dawn. Just so riled up by it all at the minute.

It sounds horrific and I wish you well and I have my fingers crossed that you are successful. I was just trying to reason why a health assessor would come to that conclusion about you.

I just think that they will see you as more high functioning than most ill people who can't get out of bed for days on end, never mind having the passion to love their jobs. That is probably why she is mentioning your job. You still officially have a job and have not been sacked. I think that is perhaps why they did that.

Around 15% of MR's will change the decision, the rest have to go to appeal.
You won't score points for not eating unless it's a regular occurrence and affects you for more than 50% of the time. For each descriptor you need to meet it for 50% of the time. If it goes to appeal then try to get help from CAB or similar as others have suggested.

I have an indefinite/ ongoing PIP award on the highest rates. I didn’t have an assessment- they went on the report of my rheumatologist. I am under 4 different specialists and take 22 medications a day. I’m not saying this to make you feel bad I’m saying it because they really do rely so much on evidence now. Unfortunately if you are lacking in this you may struggle. I still think you should appeal but gather what extra evidence you can in the meantime and chase up appointments / reports etc.

Also, with things like the incontinence (I struggle with this as well) you need to focus more on the effort and difficulties you have changing pads / changing wet clothes / changing bedding etc as this is what they’re looking at rather than just the fact you use pads - apologies if you’ve already covered this. Lots of adults use pads for the odd bit of incontinence for example and they’ll be assessing how severe it is and the impact it has on your life.

It’s extremely strange they reported your son for caring for you 😳 I would actually write and complain about that as it really doesn’t seem right.

People do work and claim PIP but often it’s those who have significant physical needs (ie wheelchair bound etc) that tend to do this as their needs are able to be met with accommodation within the workplace and there is usually a lot of evidence to back this up.

(I am on a disability / PIP forum with 55k members so see a lot of posts about this - you can find lots of PIP groups on Facebook which might be of use to you).

The not eating thing won’t score you points unless you can prove you need someone else to motivate you to eat or you need significant help to do so. I have severe oral issues which means I go through long spells of being unable to eat any solid food - I am under an oral specialist so have lots of evidence and still scored zero in this area.

Totally agree with this. If you can change a pad yourself then they are unlikely to award points as you can mange the incontinence. If you struggle to do it because it causes pain to bend or you need reminding to change pads or need someone else to do it or can't maintain your toileting / hygiene needs to an acceptable standard then you would be more likely to score points. they do make it very hard to get points unfortunately.

@swallowedAfly please don't apologise, I can only imagine the stress you are under. My husband is in a very similar position, his care Co-ordinator from CMHT went off sick long term and no one told us, they just leave you in limbo. Our doctors also operates in the same way, phone on the actual day for an appointment and goodness knows who you end up seeing. I don't know if it's of any use to you but my dh recently had a social care assessment. They came to the house to do it and anyone can request one. He has mental health issues, would also go days without eating etc. Can you request one? I think you just phone your local county council. You may be able to get some help via them and also include on the PIP form that you are being assessed.

I think you may have misunderstood- I can't get out of bed most days and that has been the case for a year. I have been signed off for the vast majority of the last year. I also said, I think that I used to love my job.

On the incontinence you get one point if you have to use pads and wipes etc. No it's not a large amount but they all add up. Having to have someone help you gets more points but the descriptors are clear that having to use pads for incontinence is a point. It seems a couple of you aren't aware of this but it's clearly explained on the CAB breakdown.

As for eating it's some days no food, some days just nuts etc because I can't prepare or cook, some days being able to cook supervised etc. There are points even if you can cook a simple meal in the microwave but can't use a cooker, there are also points for needing to be prompted and reminded to eat. You don't have to have the worst level to get an award and lower levels of points under several areas add up. My main point was that she went as far as saying I said I eat every day when I literally told her I hadn't eaten for days.

This is faecal incontinence by the way not a bit of bladder incontinence that most people may have by my age. I have less than half of my colon left. I really don't think most people mess themselves regularly.

Dawn17 Thank you for your kindness and empathy. I feel like some people think it's a competition or something and a lot of people really don't understand that mental health can be seriously incapacitating and PIP isn't just for physical disabilities.