Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Money matters

Find financial and money-saving discussions including debt and pension chat on our Money forum. If you're looking for ways to make your money to go further, sign up to our Moneysaver emails here.

a stupid stupid mistake

68 replies

mehdismummy · 21/02/2008 15:43

can anyone tell me where i stand legally? I am a shift manager of a pub and yesterday morning i was called up by one of the shift leaders to say the safe was £20 down. After putting phone down i checked through my pockets and realised i had the money in there. It must have been where i was changing up coins.

OP posts:
blueshoes · 24/02/2008 11:09

ribenaberry's approach sounds very sensible.

Also agree with Freckle to write everything down and go through in your mind the sequence of events and the reasons for each action (even if that might be you were stressed or tired).

If there is a disciplinary, you want to sound credible. Be honest, answer the questions clearly, do not obfuscate or throw irrelevant details in the air. If you have to finger anyone or cite past instances of breach, have as much evidence to back you up as you can and the specific instances when they occurred, who else can corroborate you.

All the best, mehdismummy. It is not easy to keep a clear head when you are under such stress. Just face the music for this one and hopefully the company will understand.

flowerybeanbag · 24/02/2008 11:55

hi medhismummy, Ive had a read through. I'm sorry you've been having such a rough time recently.

There are lots of facts in your favour

-There is a new cash control policy, which you haven't been trained in
-You are under a lot of personal stress, have asked for support and not received it
-It has been made clear to you that time off will not be looked upon favourably
-When this came out, if I've read it correctly, you were not suspended and were actually allowed to work in charge of the safe again. It will be very difficult for them to claim that all trust has gone and therefore you must be dismissed. If they didn't trust you or if there was any doubt, they should have suspended you.
-Others have also been in the safe when they shouldn't have.

However,
-When you first found out the £20 was missing and checked your pockets, and found it, you didn't own up straightaway, instead you went into the safe when you were not on shift and put it back. I don't think lack of training in a new cash control policy will get you out of that one.
-Others also breaking the procedure, does the relevant person know about it, and has it been addressed? Will bringing that up involved 'grassing up' others including your manager? That will impact on your working relationships.
-You say yourself there are too many managers and they need to address that, you feel this may be an excuse to do so. That's key for me.
The first thing I thought when I read that you were convinced they knew it was an honest mistake was 'What else is there then? If they fully supported and trusted this person and valued her as an employee and wanted to keep her, and believed it was an honest mistake, they would do so.' Then you said about the stress you'd been under which has no doubt affected your performance at work generally, plus the too many managers scenario, and it becomes a little clearer.

IME there is always, always more to it. Rarely is there a completely isolated issue with someone. If there is a disciplinary issue there is often a work performance issue, an absence issue, or something else, which colours the situation. Same here. Some context which gives a clue as to their motives and the things influencing their decision making will help you decide how to address it from your point of view. It's never black and white so understanding their motives and being able to work out what you think their end goal is is key.

I think it's clear that their end goal, if long-term, is to get rid of you. That's my interpretation based on everything you've said. They may not be able to do it with this, given all the mitigating information you have, but I maintain the belief that that is the long term aim. Important for you now is to make sure all the mitigating information is conveyed clearly, is on the record, and try to get the fact that they do believe it was an honest mistake on the record as well. Write down everything that's happened so far so it's clear in your mind.

Have they put down in your letter exactly what the disciplinary is about? I think you need to put in a document yourself, laying out all the mitigating factors, so that it's all down on paper before the disciplinary hearing. Send it to them beforehand. That way you are not scrabbling to remember everything in the meeting, getting confused and flustered and relying on someone taking notes to make sure it's all on the record. Take positive action and put all this stuff on the record yourself.

Have a read of this from Acas about the statutory disciplinary procedure. Also read your own disciplinary policy. Make sure it is being followed to the letter by them - any breach of either their own procedure or the statutory minimum procedure will be helpful to you later, if you appeal it or if it goes further.

You need to think about your health and also your working situation. Do you think you can continue working there after this? I understand that there is more riding on this job than just a job, so that's a big decision, you may feel as though you have no choice and must stay at least for the time being. In which case you need to work out long term how to make that more bearable. If you make clear in your disciplinary that you are keen to improve your performance and contribute but feel that you need a bit of support in the short term, hopefully you should get that. If you make it clear that your doctor wanted to sign you off with stress but you felt under pressure to come in, hopefully you will be able to do that, and hopefully you will get the additional training you need as well.

If they dismiss you I don't think that could be considered fair, bearing in mind all the mitigating factors I've mentioned, in which case you'll need to appeal the decision and may hvae to take it further. I would suggest for the moment you focus only on the disciplinary hearing, and not panic about what other action you might need to take for the time being. Take it one step at a time.

Write the document I've suggested, putting your case forward and making clear all the factors in your favour you've mentioned. Make sure you take someone with you to the disciplinary, plus copies of your document, so you have it in front of you to help you. Keep your own notes of everything that happens, that way if it does go further, it will be a lot easier.

I hope that helps at least for the time being, do come back as well if you need to.

mehdismummy · 24/02/2008 12:58

thanks flowery for firstly taking time out of your sunday to help someone you dont know. I also think there is another reason behind this. The manager was aware of other breaches of cash control policies but did not do anything about it . He also has breached it himself. I can ask to be moved somewhere else if need be. Spoke to am but could not say too much as he was standing next to me. So ended up saying he was ok. Gonna do what you suggested and write everything down. However spoke to him today and he has not even passed the notes on to the other manager or spoken t o him about it. I had the investigation meeting friday. I have also been given my shifts next week and yet again in full charge of safe. Feel very stressed and dread going to work because i feel my every move is being watched

OP posts:
flowerybeanbag · 24/02/2008 13:55

No problem.

I logged back on because I wanted to add something. I do think at the moment their aim, or that of your immediate manager anyway, is to get rid of you. I think you have hit the nail on the head about all the reasons for that. They need to reduce numbers, you've been a bit of a 'problem' recently, through no fault of your own, and your problems have not been addressed as they should have been. I think your manager had these concerns and then this incident has presented him with an opportunity. Plus as you've just mentioned, covering his own back.

But I think if you can ride out this particular storm, which I think you can, there is no reason that situation can't change. Produce your document, forward it yourself to whoever needs to see it, and I think a lot could come out of this disciplinary. It is really stressful but you could view it as at least an opportunity to get all these things out in the open which isn't necessarily a bad thing. You may end up getting the support you need as a result, you never know.

I also think you can view the fact that you are still working as tremendously positive in your favour. There is no doubt in my mind that if you are going to be dismissed for this with no outstanding warnings on your file, you should have been suspended and not allowed anywhere near that safe again.

Try to keep your chin up if you can in the meantime.

mehdismummy · 25/02/2008 00:14

well apparently now after letting me cash up on thursday i have now got to have another manager on shift with me when i am working how is that meant to make me feel? I literally had to train someone tonight. Surely this is discrimination?

OP posts:
flowerybeanbag · 25/02/2008 09:43

mehdismummy how would that be discrimination, on what basis? Do you mean sex discrimination or race or something?

It sounds fair enough to me, given the circumstances of your disciplinary, annoying, but to be expected. Their priority at the moment isn't sparing your feelings I'm afraid, and this really is a minor issue compared to what's going on.

You have still been allowed back on your own since the incident, that's still a point in your favour and they still have not suspended you, again a point in your favour. I don't think having someone else there as well could be discrimination. You've got plenty of things to put forward in your defence, focus on getting them on the record I'd say, and view this is as a minor annoyance.

mehdismummy · 25/02/2008 10:28

yeah i know. I am so just stressed by it all. Not sleeping etc. I feel like crying all the time and just so soul destroying. I found out last night that manager came into pub in middle of night and took forty pounds from the safe and never left a note. It was actually my safe at the time. The only reason we found out was because manager at time rang him. Its just so unfair

OP posts:
flowerybeanbag · 25/02/2008 10:33

It is unfair, but things like what happened last night are actually going to help your case. The more examples you have of it being common practice, the less reasonable it would be for them to dismiss you. So it is unfair at the moment yes, but hopefully this will all come out as part of this process and be sorted out. And it's very daft of your manager to continue doing that without realising that it's undermining the disciplinary they're bringing against you.

I know it's stressful, and I feel for you. I'm fortunate enough never to have been in a similar situation so I can't say I know how you feel, but I do know that keeping as calm as you can and trying to focus your energy on things that will help you rather than on how unfair everything is is the best thing you can do if you can manage it.

mehdismummy · 25/02/2008 10:41

thankyou so much for you help. I know deep down you are right. I think just lack of sleep etc is wearing me down. My usually very un supportive dh is being very good and thinks when i see my area manager i should tell her everything. Should i or wait until disciplinary? Once again thankyou so much

OP posts:
mehdismummy · 25/02/2008 16:41

have just found out the manager has taken the video home with him and it wont be back for a couple of days. It should be in a secure place. Is this ok?

OP posts:
flowerybeanbag · 25/02/2008 19:04

Is it normal procedure for the manager to take the video home? I wouldn't be happy about this if I were you. Have you seen it, do you know what is shown?

Regarding talking to area manager, up to you, she may not want to talk about it outside of the formal proceedings. You will have a chance to say anything you need to say at the disciplinary anyway, I'm assuming she will be present?

mehdismummy · 25/02/2008 19:56

no i am not happy about it at all. He is good friends with the guy who started this all off and i think it shows the safe was open when he left office which is also a breech of cash control policy. I was told it clearly shows me taking money out of my back pocket and puttin it back. Am not having anything to do with it at this stage because she will have to deal with it if i go to appeal. She did say however she would investigate his breaches of cash control but that was seperate. She just said not to stress and write all the mitigating circumstances down. Should i bring his breech up at disciplinary?

OP posts:
ShinyDysonHereICome · 25/02/2008 20:24

A key part of a manager's role is to be a good role model/lead by example- on both counts you have been let down so I do think this is worth carefully documenting in terms of dates, times and occurrences.

Flowery- I also wanted to add that you give simply amazingly good advice and if I were ever concerned about an HR issue would put my complete trust in you. You are such a star!

mehdismummy · 25/02/2008 20:29

i wanna second that. It amazes me that people that you dont even know will help you. Flowery has been amazing and if i can help you in anyway ( anything you need to know about the tweenies i am your woman!)

OP posts:
flowerybeanbag · 25/02/2008 20:56

thanks both!

It's positive that she said she would investigate his breaches, she's right that it's separate. I think putting in your document to raise at your hearing the stuff about consistent similar breaches by other members of staff including managers is a good idea. It gives a context of general acceptance of this type of behaviour. I wouldn't necessarily add specifics, but you may be asked to provide those details so have them written down so you can if necessary.

mehdismummy · 25/02/2008 20:59

thanks flowery. Apparently justin/mr tumble is also jake in the tweenies. And max is judys dad. see i told you. I am a wealth of knowledge!

OP posts:
flowerybeanbag · 25/02/2008 21:02

that excellent tweenies knowledge just went straight over my head, but I will store it up for future use to dazzle people with my tweenies expertise!

mehdismummy · 25/02/2008 21:15

you never know flowery! on a serious note. Thankyou very much. What with work. Homelife dh etc. It brings me to tears to know people out there care if it was not for mn i would be in a madhouse by now

OP posts:
New posts on this thread. Refresh page