Should I take DH off the mortgage?

[WishIWasACavewoman]

House renovations have run over budget (older property, extra problems), so booked bank appointment to discuss taking the balance out of equity. In the initial conversation the advisor said that in his view there should be no problem, with my salary and the amount of equity in the house.

It's a joint mortgage with me and DH named. I'm the main earner, DH is self-employed and has a history of failing to get on top of his career and money. Hes alwsys broke. All holidays, treats, house improvement, and things like school uniforms etc are on me. We both work full time. It's not that he's reckless, far from it. His confidence is low and he doesn't believe in himself, and perpetually just doesn't value himself and that comes through in his career decisions and options. He is very practical and does a lot around the house, with kids, and administers things like the household council bills etc.

I'm paying for the bulk of the renovation, it's not on the mortgage.

In the bank meeting, it emerged that he has £8k of personal debt, and the request for a mortgage extension was declined as a result.

I'm beyond furious. I've already cleared debts of his twice out of equity in the house. I've refused to do it again. The bank advisor suggested clearing his debts with what I have left in the renovation saving pot, which would mean we could get the mortgage extension even for the higher amount that would then require. But why the fuck should I?

Apart from the rage, I'm concerned about continuing to link my finances to his. He's become a liability. I was hoping that things were getting better, but this has shown both that he's not financially stable, and that we're not working as a team - I didn't know about his debt. I now don't think this will ever change.

Would I be best off asking for the mortgage to be in my sole name? I pay it anyway.

I'm afraid I was also refused permission to exclude DH from our mortgage as he would be living there with me.

As your DH sounds a good chap other than being terrible with money, could you not pool skills here? If he agrees to be very open with you, a monthly review of his finances with you might really help him. I don't mean to infantilise him, but it could save your marriage.

That said, being self-employed adds additional financial responsibilities. I'd also want to be sure he was on top of everything, such as VAT payments etc.

As pp’s have said you can’t simply take him off the mortgage. If the mortgage is in joint names then the property is owned jointly too. A bank would never lend against an asset where they couldn’t repossess the property and if they don’t have a contract with both owners that would be difficult. You could both agree given his self employed status that you should own the property outright but you’d need to deal with the title first. And this would all have implications if you were to divorce as it sounds like he is financially dependent on you.

Thanks @inininsomnia . Sounds like my solution isn't a solution then if two of you have had this declined.

He is a good chap, yes. I might be slightly less so in that I don't really relish the idea of checking his homework - but you're probably right.

Doesn't get the roof fixed though...

Thanks @Fleur405 . Good to know the reason why, and from the banks pov it makes sense...

What's the issue with the business? Not charging market rates and/or enough for his time to earn properly for his work?

Not doing enough work, fannying around, taking his time at the merchants choosing supplies?

Not chasing invoices or bad debts?

Would him employing an assistant/apprentice/admin support person solve the problem?

The business thing is decisiveness linked to confidence I think.

Right now he needs to scale to be able to get his income up and it's impossible. Other impossible things have included getting a van, getting a workshop and getting an assistant, all of which he's done usually after an ultimatum from me to make it work or get a job. He's probably below market rate too and taking on uneconomic jobs, both for confidence reasons.

Why don't you divorce but still live together as housemates. This would stop you being responsible for future debt which, let's face it, we all know he will accrue.

Personally I think you should speak to a Business/Financial Advisor and lay it all on the line and see what he advises.

Proposal to put to DH:

In the short term:

• pay the debt from savings
• re-mortgage the house
• review of his finances to see why in debt. If it is to cover his cost of life maintenance, then a review/reduction of the amount he contributes there too.
• on the first of every month you will run a credit check on him, to confirm he has applied for no more credit and/or debts

In the long term:

• he has 5 years (or whatever) to bring his hobby up to minimum wage standard (or whatever number you agree on) or he gets a job/retrains/another option
• sees a business coach/planner
• gets some counseling for the confidence

He is allowed to add some points for you in the above.

You have the right to be mad. But once you are over being mad, as you have said you don’t want a divorce, you have to look at ways to fix it. Again, I know you don’t want to take on a ‘mothering’ or supervisory role, but in order to move past this, it seems you will have to in the short term, at least. Hopefully the steps build, and after awhile the supervision isn’t needed.

Scaling up requires money up front. I hope your ultimatums didn’t cause the £8k debt by forcing him to buy a van, get a workshop and hire an assistant before the business could afford it?

Especially since you are requiring a monthly “contribution” from him which would be siphoning off funds from the business. Funds that could have been saved and used to fund scaling up.

Im not convinced his business is doing poorly purely due to his decisions as you seem to be demanding a monthly income from it and ordering him to make major capital expenditures and hire on staff. Did you look at the business financials before issuing these ultimatums? You don’t even know his pricing structure or market rates, so I’m guessing you didn’t.

On the mortgage and renovations, I think I would go back to the renovation budget and cut it, then reapply for a lower equity release.

@Discovereads but the DH has had what sounds like decades to make self employment work, as in provide an income for his labours.

Fair enough if he's doing all the school runs, childcare etc that contribution should be recognised but unless he's bringing in above NMW, to account for the fact he has no holiday or sick pay and likely no pension, then it's a hobby not work and why should he have the luxury to do this while the OP is working full time and trying to paper over the financial cracks that he's creating?

LinesandDot, I think you're probably right and something along those lines is needed. Thanks for the insight. My heart sinks as putting that kind of agreement in place is likely to erode the last shred of coupledom, but it's probably what has to happen. Apart from the 5 years thing - he's had 15 and we've had similar cutoffs before, but when we get to the deadline he's a rabbit in the headlights.

Discovereads you sound angry and I hope you're not in a difficult financial situation because of someone else. These are personal debts. I do know about the business ones he has, separately, which are linked to the development of his business. (Or I think I do!) Hard to be too specific, but they have been necessary to get off the ground, and in proportion to the potential return. I'm not bankrolling his choice to take the risk of self-employment, and after 5 years I don't think expecting an income from it is unreasonable.

Barbara is right - that's how it is and why I'm feeling like this. And PP are right - I should probably see a financial advisor. What a mess...

Are these renovations that he wants? Are these your renovations in actuality? Would he have been happier with a more modest home and lifestyle? Are you a high flyer and the expectation is that he keeps up with you? You sound hardworking and generous but just make sure you're not steamrolling his idea of what a comfortable life is for your own. My ex was very ambitious about our home and careers where as I just wanted what I needed with a greater focus on time together. I was made to feel " less than". He shouldn't be keeping secret debt.

Erode the last shred of coupledom?

OP, you are deluded. It's not there anyway. You aren't working as a team. No team player would be so ambivalent towards the other team player that they don't know or care how they have been making their financial contributions towards their cost of living. There clearly is very poor communication and no transparency between you and you come across on here as a person who is fake and pretending to be understanding and supportive, but really you are condescending, you don't respect him and he annoys you. Be clear with yourself and everyone else. He likely knows this too and that's a massive confidence knock and he is apprehensive about having any conversations with you about finance and clearly doesn't want to be overly reliant on you either. This would be due to his personal pride but likely also your underlining hostility which is clear to see. For the record, I understand your frustration as a money wise partner (I am one too and DH is not), but if it frustrates you to the extent you talk about him the way you do and your communication is not existent in the first place then you shouldn't be together.

@BarbaraofSeville
Dont disagree, but it is only recently he’s been bringing in less than NMW:
He hasn't even made minimum wage several years

“it's a hobby not work and why should he have the luxury to do this while the OP is working full time and trying to paper over the financial cracks that he's creating?”

What makes a hobby a hobby? Most hobbies don’t generate any income, they cost money. And OP says he puts in FT hours, so doesn’t sound very luxurious.

He’s generating some income as he’s paying a monthly contribution to the household pot per the OPs demands.

Im not convinced he’s solely creating the “financial cracks” when the OP has said she issued him ultimatums to buy a van, rent/purchase a workshop and hire an assistant. £8k would not even cover a fraction of this, so it’s quite likely the £8k debt is directly caused by these ultimatums and the monthly contribution. Which evidently he didn’t agree with but was pressured to do.

When starting a successful business, usually you need to reinvest your profits into the business in order to scale up. The best way to run it into the ground or keep it floundering is to siphon off too much funds as income and/or expand faster than the revenues support. This leads to taking work that will barely cover costs just to pay petrol, tax, insurance, wages and rent, mortgage, utilities so as not to go bankrupt. These are monthly fixed costs that you’ve committed to by prematurely scaling up and have to cover. It’s not a case of scale to generate more income as the OP put it.

And as for the renovations running over budget, that’s a financial crack much larger than £8k which is neither the OP nor her DHs creation. It’s most likely the cost of materials and labour going up.

Discovereads you sound angry and I hope you're not in a difficult financial situation because of someone else.

Sorry, I don’t mean to sound angry.

I'm not bankrolling his choice to take the risk of self-employment, and after 5 years I don't think expecting an income from it is unreasonable.

That’s fair. So, he’s probably bankrolling it himself, hence the £8k. No, the expectation isn’t unreasonable if it weren’t for Covid having knocked off half that time. But generally you calculate whether an income is feasible and wise for the business future. You can’t say right I want £1k/mo from you (for example), without seeing if that’s a realistic expectation or if it is one that would cripple the business.

We tried the reverse - getting me put on the mortgage and deeds. It’s been such a ballache we’ve shelved the idea at them moment. It incentive was so we could remortgage using my income and increase borrowing (I was unemployed and pg when dh took the original mortgage, which was already difficult as he is a self employed immigrant, and the advisor advised dh’s name only gave us a better shot - idk if that was true but that’s what we did). The mortgage market has gone so bonkers that they would only do it if we extended the term by 15 years, paid a much higher rate and then we would be allowed to borrow £8K instead of the £50k we were asking. For context I’ve gone from unemployment and pg to earning £47k in that time, we have 5 years left and 80% equity so I didn’t think we were a high risk. The stamp duty didn’t apply as we are under the threshold but we still would need a bank approved solicitor and the fees were around £1k. In the end I took an unsecured personal loan in my name and we altered our plans.

we needed the money for self employed dh who ran a v successful business in a partnership but went solo 3 years ago and has, frankly, floundered. He can do the running (hopefully) but the setting up stuff has meant I dropped the ball and have turned into a massive nag. I hate it. He hates it. We are in a different, scary, sort of debt that we haven’t been in for 2 decades. I feel as if I’m working 2 jobs, my actual one and keeping an eye on him, and I’m just hoping it pts temporary. If it isn’t the business will be sold and he will have to become employed.

How are you saving enough for most of the house renovations while he's getting into debt because he's not making minimum wage?

Have you spoken to him about how the debt has been accrued?

Do you normally bury your head in the sand and hope that by ignoring the problem it will just go away? Why are you so passive? Why haven't you dealt with things head on? You clearly can't communicate with him properly re money. And you are a high earner?

Just stop for a moment and think about it - imagine a friend telling you this story: that they applied for mortgage and suddenly discovered that partner had loads of debt. you'd think that she was an idiot, unorganised, incapable of doing the basic checks pre application.

and you would think that you can't understand how she hadn't got all these things sorted before they started making the mortgage application.

So you have a much bigger problems here and just the mortgage issue. Deal with those first.

Honestly, at this stage I would give him a straight ultimatum: he winds up the business and gets a PAYE job, or divorce.

He's had decades to make the business work and he's incapable of doing so. He is bad at running it. No self-pity spiral about his employability, either. He can stack shelves or tend bar, or commit to a proper plan for retraining. But the scenario of him running this business has been given many, many, many chances and it hasn't worked. You're doing the big picture thinking for it yourself, on top of bringing in all the family's actual money and most of the work at home, FFS.

Personallly? As this is the third time I'd ask to see all his bank statements, invoices the lot and go through it all and treat him like a child.

You won't divorce, so this isn't going to get any better unless you help him manage his money as clearly he can't manage it properly. I'd also expect him to get a part time job around being self employed to make up the money.

I'm constantly flabbergasted on Mumsnet how many people run self-employed businesses that just aren't viable and aren't making any money.

instead of realising that this is clearly just a hobby, something that they enjoy doing but doesn't make any profit.

So, they need to slowly change that, set it up as a hobby, and get a full-time job. I don't care how much you love it, it's not making any money = it's not a viable business, is it?

I was thinking the same thing. Why would one partner in a marriage get into debt to cover basics like clothes and general living and the other doesn't. That's not right.

Bottom line is, he is not really making enough of a contribution to home life. OP has suggested options like him being sahp (doing more with kids/home), retraining, working employed. He ONLY wants to do his self-employed business.

OP- you have my sympathies. I think he needs counselling and you need couples counselling. You may have to accept that overall he is less productive in the home and financially than you are - so maybe ask him to do more chores at home (with no financial contribution) - and you get financial oversight over his business? Could his business be seen as a kind of therapy for him, but not something for which makes money?

Has he kept up with his pension contributions? Would he be eligible for full state pension?