Pensions and Divorce

[oneranksenior]

My H recently told me he wants us to separate. I'd been thinking the same, but he raised it first and for me it's too soon. We are in our early mid-60s and our youngest DD is at home. I'd been thinking to separate when we retire and want to downsize and move house when the time was right.
Question I have raised with solicitors is, 'does it make a difference financially whether we separate before or after he retires and takes his substantial pension?' (He spends so much time looking at his pension spreadsheet un-aware that I will be entitled to 50% of it if we divorce).
The solicitors have said it doesn't matter, other than he could take his tax free 25% and squander it. I have read however that pension before retirement is seen as an asset and after as income. He hasn't mentioned divorce perhaps as pensions are not considered in a separation financial settlement. So it is likely that I will have to initiate divorce. I want to stall this as long as possible as it will be me that has to sort out and sell the house and I want our DD to be settled. H has given an indication that he will retire at 66 in 4 years, he could retire at anytime.
One other thing he has a serious health issue, if he dies before me, I assume that would be the end of his pension?
Has anyone experience or knowledge of pensions. Both my pensions are defined benefit pensions so I've never investigated pension funds. We both have pensions which we have been receiving payment since turning 60. I have a defined benefit pension for my current job.

Surely the simplest thing here is to divorce now and split the assets 50/50? You are hugely overcomplicating things. Which of you has the biggest pension anyway?

Whether or not his pension stops when he dies depends on what type of pension it is.

No-one can tell you what becomes of his pension without the details of that pension!

If it’s a DC pension and he converts the whole lot to an annuity without spousal element, then even if you’re still married - nothing.

If it’s a DB pension and he forgets to remove you from his expression of wish you might get some of it.

I could not be doing with desperation nonsense. I’d want out, divorced, with a fair split of the pension NOW. Your solicitor sounded a bit casual about him burning through 25%?!

It sounds like he has more assets than you, or you wouldn’t be asking.

If you divorce after his pension is in payment, the rules are more complicated. So you’ll probably pay out more for advice then than now, just to know what to do.

One thing I know, is that once it’s in payment to him, if you divorced and took a share of it, you’d get no 25% tax free amount - wouldn’t matter what he’d taken, it’s just a general rule because of HMRC having better things to do than manage that complexity!

I wouldn’t put it off, pull the plaster off, so you can plan your own retirement with certainty.

In fact, I would ditch the solicitor that said it didn’t matter.

Yes he has a much bigger pension pot than me, (half the value of the house), as I was a SAHP and then a carer for elderly parents.
From what people have said I need to sort this before he retires.
It's just after 40 years of marriage and 28 years in the same house with a H who will leave everything to me it's a hell of a lot to do!

If you’re both receiving pensions, why would you be entitled to 50% of his? Or is he going to get another one?

Ah, cross post.
You need to act immediately. I’m assuming your child at home is in fact an adult?

Divorce now and split the pensions and the equity in your house and any other assets you have. You may be entitled to more than half the pension as women live a bit longer than men.

It’s not really, once you get started.
The hardest part is deciding a fair split - but if you been together that long, it makes 50/50 all the more fair.
So then it’s just admin - getting all your assets listed, and valued.
That’s pretty easy for the house.
For DB pensions it’s a standard process to request a CETV (keep in mind they can take several months).
Shares etc - the value is known.

Decide yourself what you want before you speak to him again.

Yes find it hard to believe that he doesn’t know that pensions are included in marital assets. Are you sure?

Because the assets would be split 50:50.
He has only spoken about the house. But all the solicitors I have spoken to have said if we divorce the pensions would be split at least 50:50.
His pension is 5 times the size of mine.
I have asked for a valuation for the pension I am currently receiving and they charge over £1000 to do that. It's all new to me!

Don’t listen to him saying he wants a separation, you need to divorce him.

The £1000 having the pensions valued would be wisely spent.

We're you caring for his elderly parents? Just seems a bit harsh for you to argue you deserve/are entitled to a share of his pension whilst presumably he has worked to allow you not to need to so you can care for your parents?

@twinningatlife

We're you caring for his elderly parents? Just seems a bit harsh for you to argue you deserve/are entitled to a share of his pension whilst presumably he has worked to allow you not to need to so you can care for your parents?

Luckily the law is more enlightened than you!

@CoastalSwimmer

I just see things differently as I'm a woman and the main earner and the one with a pension significantly larger than my husbands 🤷‍♀️

I’d file for divorce now. During mediation, the solicitors will guide you and your DH to a fair split of the assets. Your pensions and his pensions values will be added and then split so it’s 50/50 each. As he has much more than you, he will be topping you up. But it won’t be 50% of what he has because you have more than nothing.

Quite Jersey !!
He told me 6 weeks ago that he want us to split, for him to move out and for me to sell the house by next summer.
Since then he has said nothing and apart from staring at his pension spreadsheet doesn't appear to have taken any action.....

Honestly, I would just give up the added stress of being annoyed at the one taking action.

Would you rather he was rushing along to his own timescale? I bet not!

Look, you want to separate anyway, so this is a good thing.

Don’t see it as having the actions dumped on you, but as you having control of a really critical situation.

Don’t worry about the £1000 valuation for pensions in payment for now.

Start with getting together a list of all your marital assets. There’ll be plenty of lists online, but house & pensions are your biggies.

Get 3 estate round to give you a valuation - just say you’re considering downsizing for retirement. Average them. You can have that done on your next day off, it’s not hard. (Practically, I’m not dismissing emotionally!)

Get your own CETV application for pensions not in payment off.

Get a list together of everything you need from him. If it’s like my marriage, you may be able to just go and get most of it yourself. My XH had some shares - but guess who filed the annual statements?!

Get it all listed.
Decide what YOU want.
I guess given your ages, 50%.
Decide whether you’re interested in buying him out partly by letting him keep all his pension - doesn’t sound like you can, but make your decisions and COST THEM without him.

I did all of that for my divorce, he did fuck all. I didn’t care - far less stressful. I just presented him with, “this is what you need to apply for, this is how I propose to split it.”

Let him start actions then.

ENJOY having the control at this stage!

Cocomarine is sooo right!

I'd forgotten that. that the person who originally files for divorce controls the timetable.

And yes to not doing the pension valuation yet. If you do it too soon, the courts might ask for more up to date information and you'll have to do it again.

So do you both have pensions that are currently paying out and does he have another one that is due to pay out?
I'm not sure who you go to for valuations and advice once the pensions have been activated.

twinningatlife The person at home should not be under-valued. I am responsible for all domestic matters, the shopping, cooking, cleaning, the decorating, minor house maintenance, the garden, the car. I always have been, as I gave up a career at a higher level than H to have his children. I looked after my elderly infirm parents until their deaths because it was the decent thing to do.
All the solicitors I have spoken to have said that this contribution to the marriage counts equally with the spouse who goes out to work.
Yes PlanDeRaccordement it would be 50% of the assets combined; the cost of the divorced will be huge though.

the cost of the divorced will be huge though.

Not if you represent yourself and go straight for a financial court hearing. Maybe one mediation session if you have too. I wouldn't spend too much time and money on that though, unless he agreed to 50% of course. The courts will award you 50% of the assets.

I’d bite his hand off, for his suggestion of him moving out, by the way!

There are no laws about how you cover that financially, but you can make your own agreements, backed up by a document made witha solicitor to show your intentions.

It’s quite normal for one party to rent whilst the other pays mortgage - and for the couple to decide that’s roughly equal so is ignored for the financial split - e.g. the mortgage payer has no extra claim on the house for those months. Might be a bit less clear as at your age, I’m guessing mortgage is paid off?

So just decide what you think is fair. IMO, you both want this split, you benefit from him going, so I’d happily have family savings pay towards the rental. But you could specify that the split is 50/50 after he’s paid back for rent. Plenty of ways to decide. My advice would be - focus on the endgame. Fair settlement to both, but after 40 years of contributions being part financial part non financial, don’t quibble over £500 for a rental deposit coming from joint savings.

Don’t argue with him about anything. Pick yourself a mantra, like, “it’s complicated so we should be guided by solicitors” and refuse to argue your case if he disagrees with your proposal. Arguments are for a judge, not you! (and you have plenty of steps before even needing a court hearing!)

@twinningatlife are you actually clear that 'your' pension is a marital asset in the event of a divorce?
If you don't want all the assets put into the marital pot, don't get married.

@oneranksenior

twinningatlife The person at home should not be under-valued. I am responsible for all domestic matters, the shopping, cooking, cleaning, the decorating, minor house maintenance, the garden, the car. I always have been, as I gave up a career at a higher level than H to have his children. I looked after my elderly infirm parents until their deaths because it was the decent thing to do. All the solicitors I have spoken to have said that this contribution to the marriage counts equally with the spouse who goes out to work. Yes PlanDeRaccordement it would be 50% of the assets combined; the cost of the divorced will be huge though.

This is the kind of argument you that you shouldn’t get into - with him.

1. You won’t persuade him if he doesn’t think it already
2. More importantly - you don’t need to persuade him!

FWIW, I think he’s short changed getting 50%- as your children are now grown up, you chose not to re-ignite your career, you choose to work 3 days now. Personally, I don’t think life admin takes 2 days a week. And I’d feel that I had taken financial hit for your parents - who aren’t mine. I would think that 50/50 for the child rearing years was absolutely fair… equal contributions then. But I’d feel aggrieved to be funding your part time working now.

Half of MN would tear me apart for that, half would say, “yeah - fair.” Possibly partly influenced by whether they are the higher earner in their marriage!

The point is… it doesn’t matter 😏

And you’re wasting your time arguing with him - as per my previous post, get yourself a mantra, “solicitor says…”

On the few bits of paperwork I did have to hassle ex for, I never said, “I need…” but “solicitor says you have to give…”

There’s absolutely no reason why this should cost that much. The assets don’t sound particularly complicated. Your ages and length of marriage means there’s less argument too. He can think what he likes about keeping his pension - but every solicitor he sees is going to tell him it’s not happening if there aren’t other assets to offset it.

Present him with the fait accompli proposal, let him piss in the wind for a while, and don’t engage.

@CoastalSwimmer it’s not about being “enlightened”. I’m with @twinningatlife - although acknowledging that’s on the scantest of details here
The law disagrees generally with twinning and me - that’s fine, we can still have that opinion.

When I got divorced, my husband had a business worth about £300K. He built it up before me. I didn’t work in it. I didn’t cut my hours to support his. I could have included it’s value in our 50/50 split. I actually suggested we ring fence it, because it didn’t seem at all fair. As a result, I got about 20/80 of all marital assets, and wrote a letter to the judge explaining that (solicitor said otherwise the Order might be denied). Solicitor also wanted it in writing from me that that was my opinion and against her advice 🤣 I don’t regret it, 20 years on.

If OP decided to take 40% not 50% because she thought she’d had an easy life on his money - that’s fine. (not suggesting you have though OP!)