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Concerned that my pension pot is on the lower end of what it should be...

288 replies

hyperbole001 · 04/07/2021 12:23

I'm 36 and have to be honest, I haven't given a great deal of thought to my pension. I probably started paying into one from 2009 onwards, but have had various jobs over the course of my employment history, and until recently hadn't put any effort into trying to track them down. Naively, I had assumed that the govt would be able to do this by simply using my NI number but doesn't seem to be a straightforward as that.

Anyway, from those I've been able to track down and have contacted, I've estimated that my pot is currently sat at around £26k. Does this see on the low side for my age, and should I be consciously trying to increase my contributions?

OP posts:
WombatChocolate · 15/07/2021 09:44

It has come up several times in this thread, that smaller amounts than some think, will fund a comfortable retirement.

Thinking in terms of current salary whilst working isn’t terribly helpful. As mentioned, it is expected people aren’t paying mortgage and childcare, but the crucial big savings people forget are the pension contributions and much of the tax and national insurance….together these amount to several hundred pounds per month for most people and often over £1k per month for a couple.

People do seem to pluck their £35k or £40k figures for a sip gle retirement from thin air or purely related to their salary. Instead, the useful way to do it is to look at your specific spending f on each category and what will be needed, as well as looking at those websites like WHICH or AVIVA which give you realistic figures for singles and couples for basic, comfortable and luxurious retirement and indicate what each would cover in terms of car replacement, short and long haul holidays etc. It is widely thought that £2.5-3k per month (after tax) will give a couple an excellent middle class kind of standard of living…to cover replacement of cars every 4-5 years and several holidays per year and plenty of leisure and eating it. That doesn’t seem much for a working couple, but working couples are often paying mortgages, childcare or child costs in some form, lots of pension contributions etc. People should listen when people say that £35k for an individual isn’t needed for a comfortable retirement.

2 things which probably need to be considered as separate issues to pension provision are leaving an inheritance and care home costs. Neither of these are things which are usually funded out of monthly pension and if people start trying to think about making pension income enough for carehome payments, they usually find it doesn’t work or generates the most ridiculous figures which make it unworkable..,,and knowing that can save a lot of messing around with daft figures.

Regarding leaving an inheritance, generally people are thinking of leaving property which is sold on death. A worry people have is that they might need to go into an expensive care home……well actually a small percentage of people do this, but none of us can know if it will be us. With those fees amounting to tens or hundreds of thousands per year, a pension is never going to fully fund it or make much dent in those fees. If such care is needed for an extended period of time there’s no avoiding the fact that the sale of property will be needed. This of course impacts the inheritance that can be left.

Lots of people really struggle with this. They seem to think that ‘I’ve worked hard’ and are somehow entitled to receive care AND to leave the full value of a property to children. However, the reality is that some people will be unlucky and need care and if it’s extended then it will probably involve selling of the property. Good pension planning probably won’t avert this, as it cannot being in the thousands that can be needed EVERY a WEEK.

People get a bit confused too by looking at US websites and figures. US pension provision needs to cover healthcare insurance costs which are vast. Fortunately for us, the NHS will provide for our healthcare needs, even if not for long term carehome costs, which most won’t need anyway. Because we don’t need to pay hundreds per month for healthcare insurance, £2-3k per month genuinely is enough for people in retirement to pay the bills on a decent sized family house, to eat and to have leisure.

Realise too, that amounts needed do vary across retirement. If you retire early, you’re likely to have more years when you want to travel and spend more. If you don’t retire until close to 70, you are likely to be looking at far less of this than if you retire at 55. Although there will always be those who continue travelling extensively well into their 80s, most people are cutting back on extensive travelling by their early 80s. Lots of people in their 80s need to spend some money on gardening or cleaners etc but this usually doesn’t cost the same as the extensive travelling of early retirement. Lots of retirees like to have a lump of savings/investments too for one off spends…..for things like home maintenance - new boiler/kitchen etc. Many save that lump sum up before retirement or get it via a lump sum pension payment when they first retire, rather than building it through regular pension income. However, many with retirement pension incomes of £2.5-3k also talk of it being sufficient to be saving some money each month and thus building their savings pot more. Lots talk about the difficulty of changing mindset in retirement from saving hard (which is what many do in the few years before retirement) to actually living on the money and spending it…it’s a different mindset to be running down the reserves rather than building up.

Anyway, the point is, that plucking retirement target figures from the air or purely based on working salary income, isn’t that useful. A more careful process is needed. Whilst lots of people are woefully underprepared for retirement and their pension pots will deliver well under £5k per year, those with reasonably paid jobs who look into this in their 30s and 40s and spend some time planning and working things out, a comfortable retirement can be possible and sometimes with less private pension than people imagine. If a couple qualitify for the full state pension x2 then that’s currently £18k in itself.

Hel82 · 15/07/2021 09:50

Yes it's definitely true that it's much easier for a couple Polkadot, plus if you have two full state pensions that goes a long way to meeting the essentials. Mind you, plenty of people get divorced in their 50s. That's not much fun if you suddenly end up losing your home, possibly some of your pension and having to plan to spend more. If you're in a couple, however good the relationship is, it's probably safest to plan for a comfortable single retirement but hope you'll be able to combine that to a more luxorious couple retirement in reality.

hyperbole001 · 15/07/2021 11:42

Regarding leaving an inheritance, generally people are thinking of leaving property which is sold on death. A worry people have is that they might need to go into an expensive care home……well actually a small percentage of people do this, but none of us can know if it will be us. With those fees amounting to tens or hundreds of thousands per year, a pension is never going to fully fund it or make much dent in those fees. If such care is needed for an extended period of time there’s no avoiding the fact that the sale of property will be needed. This of course impacts the inheritance that can be left.

I agree with this. That being said, I couldn't give a rat's arse about leaving inheritance. I worked hard for my money, I intend to spend most of it during retirement. I hope to not leave property either... Ideally I'll sell up and downsize or possibly even rent. I don't have any dependants and anything I leave behind will be given to charity.

OP posts:
Soontobe60 · 15/07/2021 12:16

@hyperbole001

Out of interest, how much of the 35k is taxed?
Pensions are taxed as income, so if you have a 35k pension, you will be taxed on approx 22k, ie about 4.5k a year giving you a net pension of 30.5k
FrownedUpon · 15/07/2021 20:41

I think most of us are capable of working out our own individual costs in retirement. It isn’t that difficult! I’m sticking with my 35k. No-one can tell someone else how much they’ll need as we all have different expectations for travel, hobbies, meals out etc. I want a retirement full of activities & fun (health permitting) not one sat on the sofa or doing the garden.

SantaMonicaPier · 16/07/2021 06:42

I agree, FrownedUpon. And I think it's important to remember that a 'joint' pension approach may end up being single so better to over budget. I have female family members who have small pensions as they assumed they would still be married, but their husbands left them and their own pension was not sufficient for a comfortable retirement. I'm ensuring my own pension is more than adequate.

Cocomarine · 16/07/2021 10:02

@FrownedUpon and @SantaMonicaPier I hate to disagree with you, but I do ☺️
I think there are lots of people who haven’t the first clue about budgeting now, let alone in theoretical retirement!

There are plenty of threads on here (and MSE forums, for example) where people don’t budget for car wear and tear and servicing - let alone a planned replacement after, say, ten years.

When you’re quite close to your finances and are a retirement planner, I think it’s easy to over estimate how easy it is to understand your budget.

Cocomarine · 16/07/2021 10:09

@SantaMonicaPier my own retirement planning is entirely based on me alone. I’m on my second marriage so if he dies first I not only lose his contribution to the household, but I inherit nothing as it goes to his children. All my calculations and savings are based on me alone - and any time we spend as a couple in retirement I just see as years where we’ll be unexpectedly well off 🤣

WombatChocolate · 16/07/2021 11:09

There are loads of threads like this one all the time…..with people openly saying that they have no idea about their retirement planning. They don’t know how much they have in their current pension or how much they will need in retirement. It is a very common theme. The government recognises it as a major problem and has many programmes and info schemes to help address it and help people get to grips with pensions. The majority of people are not fully confident in their retirement planning.

One of the reasons why WHICH and AVIVA and PENSIONWISE give suggestions of figures for basic, comfortable and luxury retirement are to give people somewhere to start. They are really useful sites, especially for people first thinking about retirement plans. They give a benchmark figure, so someone who hasn’t given lots of thought, can see what the absolute minimum might need to be and the amounts needed to include cars, holidays etc too. This is is helpful for people and these figures and research are based on thousands of pensioners and their spending, and put together by experts.

Some people may have done their own extensive research into pensions and their own finances and concluded that they need £35k for an individual or £50k or whatever. Great….if they have researched it and the figures are based on projected spending and realistic pension planning, then of course that’s great if they can accrue that pension. What it less helpful is the suggestion that those kind of figures are what everyone needs, or that less cannot deliver a comfortable retirement. These threads usually start off as advice for someone who fears their pension plans aren’t sufficient ….exactly as this thread started off. People give advice and point out some useful figures and mention things about state retirement etc. It helps the Op understand what might be needed and ways to achieve it. The outlier who has decided they need double the standard recommendation, or far in excess of it, and that they couldn’t have a comfortable life without it, and who suggests no-one could, is extremely unhelpful and unempathetic, in a thread which is helping someone prepare for previously hasn’t done so,

But I agree that everyone should consider their pension. I’d say that for most in long term relationships, it’s a step too far for pension planning, to base fully on being single in future, although having an eye on what would happen if a relationship ended is never a waste. Too many women probably do still fully or too heavily rely on the mans pension planning, and we often read of those who later come to regret it. For myself, I think of our pension planning as a couple and the money we will need as a household. I expect us to be together, although clearly at some point, one will die and one live alone. I think of it in those terms but it’s also easy for me to do so as we both work and have individual pensions and so both would be provided for if we were on our own too. It’s not like some of my friends who haven’t worked since having children and who would financially struggle if alone.

I think attitudes to financial planning and pension planning also change too if you’ve gone through relationship breakdown. Lots of people have had horrible times where they’ve found themselves left with little and in a precarious position or royally shafted. TotLly understandably they want to provide for the future so that doesn’t happen again and to be fully self sufficient. It totally makes sense and I can see why people want to over rather than under provide. I think most people have an instinct towards this too and no one likes the idea of running out if money in old age and would rather over rather than under provide.

I’ve done lots of pension planning reading and reading on forums of those just retired. Lots of those are of people who planned ahead and retired in their 50s and are now 4-5 years in. Almost all say that they have fund it hard to shift from the saving and preparing for retirement mode into the spending and living it. And almost all say too that they are living the lives they wanted (Covid issues aside) and it costs less than they thought. They are surprised at how cheaply their standard life costs and how many more holidays and how cheaply they can have them now flexible with dates etc.

RyanAirVeteran · 16/07/2021 16:29

@WombatChocolate

This is the bit I will struggle with, we pension contributions aside we save a decent sum every month, our pension income will exactly what we are on now, minus the ability to save, but then we have a fairly decent savings pot and that is what it is there for, but the thoughts of touching it, makes me twitch. Grin

Do you mind me asking what forums you are on ?

Threads like this are so educational.

PolkadotZebra · 16/07/2021 23:57

@WombatChocolate I agree with much of what you say but this is awful advice:

I’d say that for most in long term relationships, it’s a step too far for pension planning, to base fully on being single in future, although having an eye on what would happen if a relationship ended is never a waste.

As some PPs have pointed out the divorce rate is high, often now in 50s/ 60s especially. It would be extremely unwise for anybody not to ensure that they have enough to live comfortably independently in retirement if needed and do their financial planning for retirement on this basis, with the view that being in a couple at that point would afford additional luxury financially rather than be assumed in order to afford financial basics.

As we know from so many threads on here and statistics from the ONS, relying on another adult financially is one of the major causes of poverty because often that sutuation is not sustainable long term. All adults need to be thinking in terms of being financially independent in retirement if needed or they leave themselves extremely vulnerable.

PolkadotZebra · 16/07/2021 23:59

This also contributes to many older women feeling trapped financially, with even fewer options to leave unhappy relationships that younger women. It's an unhealthy and sometimes very damaging dynamic.

ChickenSchnitzel · 17/07/2021 06:53

Complete pension novice here - will a partners pension continue to pay out once to their beneficiary they are deceased?

Worried about a friend who has very little pension of their own and is reliant on her DHs pension funding their retirement (he is much older). Should he pass on, would his pension continue to pay out to her?

OneFootintheRave · 17/07/2021 07:25

@titchy

You might want fewer holidays when you’re in your 80s but your outgoings could easily be considerably more. Who do you think is going to fund your old age care? It’s not something the government seems keen on. I am anticipating having huge social care costs in my later years.

Generally when retirement planning, the older you are the less you spend your money on.

Care needs need evaluating as well of course, but 4 hours of private care a day costs around £70 a day, which is less than £4k a year and once you need carers several times a day you won't be gallivanting abroad a couple of times a year or spending £10k every five years replacing your car.

If you go into a home then it's largely irrelevant how large or small your pension is cos you won't see any of it.

But £70 a day amounts to over £25K a year?
milian · 17/07/2021 07:35

@ChickenSchnitzel

Complete pension novice here - will a partners pension continue to pay out once to their beneficiary they are deceased?

Worried about a friend who has very little pension of their own and is reliant on her DHs pension funding their retirement (he is much older). Should he pass on, would his pension continue to pay out to her?

It depends on the type of pension - if a purchased annuity from a defined contribution pot then a “joint life” product may have been purchased, and if a defined benefit pension from a previous employer then it depends on the rules of the scheme.

The most common provision would be 50% of the current pension paid to a spouse until their death but it could be more or less than that, or potentially nothing at all.

Stuffin · 17/07/2021 08:47

@ChickenSchnitzel

Complete pension novice here - will a partners pension continue to pay out once to their beneficiary they are deceased?

Worried about a friend who has very little pension of their own and is reliant on her DHs pension funding their retirement (he is much older). Should he pass on, would his pension continue to pay out to her?

As PP said you need to look at the T&Cs of each pension.

I have a very small DB one that will pay out 50% to surviving spouse. All of our DC ones have each other named as beneficiaries so will pass to each of us on death.

WombatChocolate · 17/07/2021 09:01

Polkadot, I’m not sure we are disagreeing, but there is a difference of emphasis.

Through my life, I have worked and paid into my pension. I have done this when I was single and when I have been married. I picture the future as part of a couple and when I think about our financial provision I consider our joint household in the same way I do at the moment whilst working. The fact that we are a couple has meant that one of us has been able to work part time sometimes and it will mean one of us can retire sooner. That said, if our marriage ended, both of us have jobs and both of us have pension provision.

I think it is a peculiar balancing act to get your head round the fact that if you are married, you expect to remain married and you plan ahead on that basis, and at the same time ensure you are provided for as an individual. I have always worked and paid into my pension and am provided for, but I haven’t particularly done that because it felt vital for me to provide for myself in case my marriage went tits up….you might say I am naive, but I do work on the fact I will remain married. I find the idea of fully throwing your lot into the idea of a lifetime relationship and at the same time planning for if/when it all goes wrong somehow contradictory. And I know lots of women have said and thought the same and regretted it….and I cannot be certain my marriage will last…..but the idea of financially planning for the end of marriage and future after that, just doesn’t sit right with me.

Perhaps I feel like this, partly because I actually have already provided for myself. Having always worked and paid into my pension, although our finances are fully tied up together, I do know I could financially manage alone. Perhaps that makes a big difference and actually frees me to not worry. I do have a number of friends who haven’t worked since having children. Their husbands earn enough to support the family, but they are financially vulnerable and dependent now during working years and presumably for retirement income too. I know one has a pension which her DH has paid into along with his own all these years and another has a buy to let house which has been bought as a substitute for having a pension.

I agree that financial planning and retirement planning is really important. Women do need to think about it and ensure provision. In our house, I do mist if that stuff but I know lots of women leave it to the men but it’s an area that both need to understand.

Lots of women don’t go to paid work or work very few hours in jobs that pay a small fraction of the household income or could contribute little to retirement planning - what advice do people have for women in this position. Of course, they all hope their marriages will be long and happy, but we know that some won’t. Having always worked myself, I do t really know what the advice for financial security is for these women, but I know that financial problems following relationship breakdown come up regularly.

WombatChocolate · 17/07/2021 09:03

Oh and re payout from pension on death of spouse, many traditional final salary DB pensions pay 50% and the newer career average DB pensions tend to pay 37.5%. There are also lump sums and pensions if there is death in service, or within 5 years of retirement.

Stuffin · 17/07/2021 09:17

On the discussion about planning for retirement independently even in a marriage I think for me it comes down to the fact that it isn't in someone's interest to have all pensions and investments in one name.

DH and I have relatively similar pensions because I have worked FT and contributed since I left school. It is easy for us to plan jointly in that sense. But if you earn less or stay at home to look after the DCs you really should be considering discussing pension contributions or investments to be split equally in my opinion rather than just the earner having them. Yes if you split then it goes into the pot but I have seen women discount the pension sharing for capital like a house and then face a poor retirement.

RyanAirVeteran · 17/07/2021 09:37

DH's FS pays out full pension for the first five years if he dies in the first year, after that it is a 2/3 d's survivors pension for life.

Cocomarine · 17/07/2021 10:58

@stuffin very often a pension is one of the best investments you can make, because of the tax relief. In fact, a pension isn’t actually an investment - it’s a tax advantageous method of investing. So my ISA might hold exactly the shares as my pension, but without the tax relief going in.

Whilst I am a higher rate tax payer, it makes no financial sense for me to give my husband some of my money, in a pension for him.

Stuffin · 17/07/2021 15:16

[quote Cocomarine]@stuffin very often a pension is one of the best investments you can make, because of the tax relief. In fact, a pension isn’t actually an investment - it’s a tax advantageous method of investing. So my ISA might hold exactly the shares as my pension, but without the tax relief going in.

Whilst I am a higher rate tax payer, it makes no financial sense for me to give my husband some of my money, in a pension for him.[/quote]
Oh I know how advantage it is paying into a pension especially if higher tax payer.

But it can be terrible for lower earners or SAH partners who have no pension and don't understand the value of that on divorce. Seen it first hand with a relative.

hyperbole001 · 17/07/2021 15:47

[quote Cocomarine]@stuffin very often a pension is one of the best investments you can make, because of the tax relief. In fact, a pension isn’t actually an investment - it’s a tax advantageous method of investing. So my ISA might hold exactly the shares as my pension, but without the tax relief going in.

Whilst I am a higher rate tax payer, it makes no financial sense for me to give my husband some of my money, in a pension for him.[/quote]
So my ISA might hold exactly the shares as my pension, but without the tax relief going in.

Yes, you get tax relief paying into a pension, but you're then taxed when you withdraw it in retirement...

OP posts:
Cocomarine · 17/07/2021 16:48

@hyperbole001 yes, you need to understand relief going in and taxed going out.

But…in my case (and many around my income bracket) it will - albeit on today’s figures - be 40% relief going in and only 20% tax coming out.

Plus 25% of the withdrawal will be tax free.
And I’ll still have my personal allowance.
And the trend has been for the personal allowance to be increased above inflation.
And I’ll try to balance withdrawal from my pension during my early retirement (from age 58) with living on savings - so basically, take my pension out for a few years when I don’t need it, up to triggering tax.
And of course, all the while (hopefully) the investment paid for by the tax relief is growing.

So I’m happy with my decision to get the tax relief now, despite it increasing the amount of my pension that will be subject to tax on the way out.

StripyGiraffes · 18/07/2021 02:11

albeit on today’s figures

That's the huge assumption though. And it is huge. Yes, at present, pensions seem like a very attractive investment from a tax perspective. That will usually mean that most people invest a large proportion of money into them. Which then makes them very attractive for Governments as something to hit with taxes, because they'll make a lot of money from it. They've done that lots of times before. That is the big risk compared to an ISA where no further tax can be levied.