Buying house with mum - how to best consider brother?

[SharingWithMum]

Hi all,

I'm dipping a very tentative toe in the water here! Wondering if anyone has experience of/advice on buying a family home with a parent, when there's another sibling to consider?

Basically, my lovely dad passed away this year, and my mum is struggling. I live very close by and we see each other every day. My brother lives 200 miles away with his wife. We're a very close family, all absolutely heartbroken, and of course I'm very aware that it's a terrible idea to make any big decisions/changes in the first year of a major bereavement!

Mum's already talking about selling up (she's in our family home). She's talked about downsizing, but also about living with me and my family (husband and 2 children under 4).

Her idea is that we both sell up, then buy the "family forever home" together.

In theory, this would be wonderful.

In practice, I worry about my brother. Logistically it makes much more sense for mum to share with our family, but of course, he may have children at some point. He may wish to be close to mum too. He may feel "left out" emotionally and of course, financially.

Nothing has been properly discussed - we're all just trying to heal. But it's playing on my mind.

Any advice from anyone who's been through this, or have knowledge of the legal ramifications??

Thanks in advance.

You give your children’s ages but not yours or your mums - how old are the rest of you? Personally I wouldn’t do this too many potential complications. It’s telling that it is your mum talking of doing this not you and what about your husband, what are his thoughts?

I don’t see any benefits if you live so close and see each other every day.

Why not look at you mum buying something smaller very near to you, would she be able to afford it?

Are you talking about owning a house between the three of you? What if you and your husband separate?

Thanks everyone.

To be clearer on a few things:

• Mum's late 60s, I'm late 30s, husband's early 40s.

• Husband and I would very happily share a home with mum, if we could ensure everyone has their own space when needed! It had certainly crossed my mind too. We couldn't possibly accommodate her in our current home, so would both have to sell and find somewhere larger with the joint proceeds.

• Yes, she could sell and find somewhere smaller in my town. This is also under consideration.

• We'd need to explore how the ownership of the house would work (this is part of the reason I started the thread - none of us are legal brains and we'd be at pains to ensure everyone is fairly treated and protected).

• If the absolute worst happened and my husband and I separated, I'm 100% certain everyone would take every step to ensure the fallout is free of any acrimony. To be clear though, we're a very happy family unit.

The reasons we're considering it:

• Mum's on her own for the first time in her life. It's bloody awful. She was with my dad for over 50 years.
• We are blessed with a loving and harmonious relationship with her.
• I would be able (and happy to) take care of her in any way. As mentioned, my brother is on the other side of the country. We have no other family.
• With the proceeds of both houses, we could afford something wonderful, with space for everyone, near our preferred school, and still in our local area.

What happens when yr mum passes, will you be able to pay yr sibling without selling up?

She’s still coming to terms with being alone. It must be really difficult for her.

Honestly I’d suggest that although you reckon in the event of a divorce you would all get along, the reality is that few divorces are like that. Anything could happen. Crazy, unforeseen things. You must not count on good will when there is money and property at stake. Say your DH suddenly has a love child from a previous affair turn up at your door. He admits it. You hate him. Game over on the house. What happens to the family home then. Everything is in tatters. I know it’s unlikely but the unexpected does happen.

Better your mum thinks about her future priorities and buys a property accordingly.

I’d suggest;
1)one level property.
2)None, small or easily maintained garden.
3) affordable factors fees if it’s a flat
4)possibly the option of a retirement property with a concierge.
5)Near or preferably walking distance of food shops, newsagent, post office, doctor, dentist, Bus/train, library or whatever it is she likes (such as a local duck pond nearby with a bench or a church that does social events outwith cv19, whatever she feels she’d like to do alone for as long as she can)
6) of course it must be near you.

See what there is that fits that criteria and see if she likes that idea.

Firstly sorry for your loss.
A few (cold hearted but maybe practical ) things to consider...
What if you and your husband split up? I know you are happy, but what if ...
I also know you say you happy to look after your mum, but things could get very hard in that department depending what illness she could end up with, eg dementia - 24 hr care. It’s very hard, my mum and I cared for my aunt until we could no longer manage, due to the things my aunt was doing.
Would it be an annexe or just altogether in once space...
You’d need to get very good legal advice, say something happens to you, your mum then gets ill who is looking after her then? if she did have to go in to a home, where would your husband and she then stand legally...
Whose name will the new property be in ...
Inheritance wise, would your mum give your brother something now or upon her passing? Or not at all. Would that cause a family argument?

Lots of things to consider, hopefully someone with some legal knowledge will come on. Good luck whatever you all decide

@TheMerryWidow1 - Well this is the crux of it all really.

If Mum put all/most of her funds into our shared "forever" home, the only way to give any legacy to my brother would be to sell it when she passed.

Alternative, Mum could put a small portion of her funds into the shared house, keep some as a legacy for my brother (or just give it to him), and have some cash for her own security (and enjoyment!!)

This is why I'm asking. I was hoping to hear from any people who are living multi-generationally, and how they make that work fairly.

Millions of older people live alone after a partner dies. They don't ask to move in with their DC and young family, who must absolutely be your priority in all this. It's a big ask of your mum. And the only person I know who did this has had her mum tagging along with every single aspect of their family life for the last 20 years. She's mentally and physically drained and said said wouldn't do it now if she'd known the impact.
What if she needs to go into care in the future and has sunk money into your property and needs it?
I'm afraid your mum is thinking of herself here. As lovely as she may be, I think it's a selfish request.

Thanks @Elieza and @suzi888 - I really appreciate the rational approach and hearty lists of considerations!

Call me naive, but I truly don't worry about potential marital breakdown, or family rifts, or caring for an elderly parent. I do worry that I or my husband may fall ill though, and what on earth would happen then. And yes, I hadn't considered the minefield of legalities if mum needed to go into a home.

This thread has made me realise that my lovely mum's expectations are quite high too - there's absolutely no way she'd settle for a retirement flat or similar. She's a very flamboyant, creative, outgoing garden designer. I think she'd like a new path, rather than a slower path, if you see what I mean! And I don't blame her for one second.

Interesting to hear actual experience there @cptartapp. To be clear though, mum's made no such request. It's just one potential avenue to explore.

We are blessed with a loving and harmonious relationship with her.

You do right now. Living with people tends to change perspectives though. I wouldn't even think about it - and I am (much) closer to your mums age than to yours. And sorry, but I also think that if the unimaginable divorce looms, you are being naive to think it will be amicable. If I am being honest, I think there are a few too many rose tinted spectacles in your family. The fact that everyone is living in harmony right now doesn't mean that will last forever, and property / money tends to often be the thing that makes harmony come unhinged.

I love my kids to death, and I'm immensely proud of them. My granddaughter is a genius. And all those things will remain true provided there's some distance between us...

Late sixties! I thought you were going to say she was in her nineties.

I think I'd start by looking for areas where there are bungalows and houses close by if not next door to one another.

Your dad only died this year. It's early days, and your mum is still mourning and adjusting to her new chapter of life.

Putting it all in together does create more complexity.

Presumably she's already bubbled with you for covid purposes. Do you have space for her to stay with you for a couple of weeks to see how that goes?
Have you discussed your (all 3 of you) mutual expectations of the place you would buy and how your daily life would work?

Thinking longer-term, if your mum had a share in your house and then needed to go into a home how would the cost of care be met? Would you be selling your home to release her share?

What if you or your husband gets a job elsewhere?

Your mum hasn't asked? So is this something you are suggesting?

@SharingWithMum She does sound very active etc which is great. I think you’ve sort of made your minds up but very much some need proper legal advice for those unexpected scenarios just in case - (and they hopefully won’t happen, of course ) and also to speak to your brother about it, though I guess that’s more your mum’s department.

It’s something we actually considered, but we have a 4 year old and my mum is 78 and needs her rest, which she wouldn’t get with us! plus she’s very close anyway.

What if, sadly, your Mum had dementia or mobility problems? Both these thing can mean the person needs a lot of help. Would you want carers coming into your home?

Would you want your children and husband to have less of your time as you were so busy with your Mum? What is fair on them?

A small and suitable place near you is a lovely idea though.

Thanks @Moondust001 - I appreciate the perspective of someone "on my mum's side" as it were.

Yes, we're a ridiculously positive family. I totally accept that we (particularly I) are naive, and I'm permanently in my rose-tinted specs! Genuinely, I'm proud of this.

But, I'm not an idiot. And I'm not careless. And my children are my priority.

So I'm reaching out via a number of channels to explore options, hear experiences, and get advice.

We went through similar, selling our property and my parents selling theirs, and we then bought a larger house where we could live together. However, my parents (and we) were older than you - mum early 70s and dad in his 80s, and us late 30s/early 40s. My parents gifted the proceeds of the sale of their house to me and my siblings at the point of sale, and they (my parents) have no ownership of the property that my husband and I purchased and which we live in with my mum (dad died a couple of years after we moved). There were various considerations around tax planning, as my parents’ share of this house would be a ‘gift with reservation’ for inheritance tax. However, as my parents have few other assets, this didn’t cause a problem when dad died. I am conscious that there might be issues with deprivation of assets if mum needs care later in life, and while I think we’d be ok (not least because we’ve lived this way for over 16 years so clearly not done to avoid imminent care fees) I can’t say for certain we’ve got that right.

As for the house, we tried to find one with an annex, but mostly the annexes were small - more geared to a nanny or teenager than to two people who were contributing a significant portion of the purchase price. The house we bought was built as a single house but was converted to two flats for several years, so it already had two kitchens and bathrooms, as well as separate heating and other utilities. It’s now one house again, but those additional rooms make for a more agreeable living arrangement! We each have our own space but all under one roof.

My friend did similar, though she is a single mum. Her dad became severely disabled and bedbound. She found a house that could accommodate her parents, herself and her daughter. The original house her parents lived in was sold, split 50:50 between my friend and her brother. My friend then used her half to but the new house and adapt the downstairs to her dads needs.

They are Italian, there is no concept that her parents would ever go into a home or that she would ever go back on her word and turf them out.

That sounds like a great arrangement @GoldenMalicious. It must have such a comfort for your mum, to be with family when your dad died. The house you found sounds like the perfect set-up too!

That's so generous and accommodating of your friend @lunar1. Interestingly, my husband is non-UK European too, and we've genuinely never considered a future where any parent would go into a home! Special, particular care needs are a different beast, but I would strive to care for mum myself as long as was best.

There is a board for elderly parents on here, with lots of people who have done what you're thinking about. I'd suggest posting there too to get a sense of potential issues that may arise.

I remember reading an issue of Ideal Home or similar where a couple had built a new house for themselves, their children, and a a set of parents. One building with shared entrance and some shared living space but also some more separate areas. I remember thinking it was a great idea if you could make it work.

It may seem a good idea when she is on her own OP, but she may meet someone else in time which you might find challenging anyway, but when she's living with you it will be even harder.

I'd get some professional advice on the issue of releasing money for care if needed, and about your brother's share. You seem to be assuming she will put the majority of any proceeds from her house sale into the next property rather than giving your brother half of it. There was a thread on here from someone who needed to sell their house to fulfill the parent's legacy and unsurprisingly, was resistant to doing so! It may have been deleted though.

I hope you can work something out that suits everyone, it is a tough time and I'm sorry for your loss. The first year, especially, is hard going through all the birthdays and events for the first time without someone.