Buying house with mum - how to best consider brother?

[SharingWithMum]

Hi all,

I'm dipping a very tentative toe in the water here! Wondering if anyone has experience of/advice on buying a family home with a parent, when there's another sibling to consider?

Basically, my lovely dad passed away this year, and my mum is struggling. I live very close by and we see each other every day. My brother lives 200 miles away with his wife. We're a very close family, all absolutely heartbroken, and of course I'm very aware that it's a terrible idea to make any big decisions/changes in the first year of a major bereavement!

Mum's already talking about selling up (she's in our family home). She's talked about downsizing, but also about living with me and my family (husband and 2 children under 4).

Her idea is that we both sell up, then buy the "family forever home" together.

In theory, this would be wonderful.

In practice, I worry about my brother. Logistically it makes much more sense for mum to share with our family, but of course, he may have children at some point. He may wish to be close to mum too. He may feel "left out" emotionally and of course, financially.

Nothing has been properly discussed - we're all just trying to heal. But it's playing on my mind.

Any advice from anyone who's been through this, or have knowledge of the legal ramifications??

Thanks in advance.

Ah thanks @workingfortheclampdown, I'll definitely take a look. I started this query from a financial perspective, but the thread has definitely opened up wider considerations.

@Palavah - amazing! If only that were possible..!

Your mum is late 60s not late 80s! She Could easily have another 20 years of busy active life, travelling, meeting people, doing hobbies and perhaps even remarrying. I know it seems harsh but she needs to gradually build a new life for herself, not move into your spare room and wait to die.

And you are too young to be a carer.

It’s madness to move in together. If she is determined to sell up, then she needs to move into somewhere smaller, near you if she wants. She can still see you and the children often.

The she needs to spend the spare cash she frees up having lots of fun.

I can’t believe someone who is a garden designer doesn't want to travel and see gardens and landscapes all around the world !

I don't think it's a great idea. If couples split up it can cause huge problems. I know it's negative thinking but it has to be considered. And when a parent gets old and wants peace and quiet with noisy teenagers in the house. I personally would never recommend it.

Ha @ChicCroissant - the idea of mum meeting anyone else genuinely hadn't occurred to me. Ouch.

No, there's no assumption that mum would plough most of her house proceeds into a joint venture. I started from that position more as a "what if", but it sounds messy!

Ha @ALLIS0N - you've actually just summed up my mum. And to be clear, there's no way either of us would let her "move into a spare room and wait to die"

She's a whirlwind. But she's done everything until now with my dad (an artist). She doesn't want to be alone and she actually doesn't want to live in "our home".... she has visions of a big old gaff with plenty of space for everyone, acres for her to landscape, and probably a ballroom knowing her!! It sounds great, but we could only afford it together! (And yes, leave her with enough cash to travel the world).

My colleague's husband died when she was mid 60s, they had been together 45+ years.

She did start dating again and her daughter didn't cope with it at all well. I cannot even imagine how badly it would have gone if they lived together.

Definitely don't make any decisions too quickly. If she's desperate to move out of the family home, maybe she sells up and rents somewhere smaller? See how it goes, what she likes and doesn't like?

Hi, so many things to consider but please also take into account if (hopefully not!) you were to die. Would your mum and husband still live together? What if he met someone else? He could also force a sale of the house.

Obviously divorce is something you'd have to consider too like other posters have said. Again, hopefully it won't happen but you really do never know what the future holds.

Best of luck with whatever you decide and I'm sorry about your dad, I can't imagine how you must all be feeling

Agh @trilbydoll that must have been incredibly tough. Yes, we need a lot more time before any decisions can be made.

Thank you @snowstorm2012. Our souls are shattered. He was a beautiful man and I loved him very, very much. Mum's said she feels she doesn't have a future - I guess my thinking about houses etc. is a rather desperate attempt to convince her she still has one.

She doesn't want to be alone and she actually doesn't want to live in "our home".... she has visions of a big old gaff with plenty of space for everyone, acres for her to landscape, and probably a ballroom knowing her!! It sounds great, but we could only afford it together! (And yes, leave her with enough cash to travel the world)

But that’s her dream and not yours. She needs to make A new life for herself and not take over yours - you have a family with your husband and kids.

Where are her own friends in this? Does she have many? What about he social life and hobbies ? Has she landscaped her own garden already ? Why doesn’t she want to stay there ?

I’m wondering if she is a rather impetuous woman ? And if this is a new project to distract her and you from your grief .

What would happen in terms of inheritance for your brother if she's putting all her money into what will be your new house?

@ALLIS0N - no, she's not impetuous. She's grieving. She's frightened. She's heartbroken. We will care for her in whichever way we can, and this is one option to explore. There's no question of her "taking over our lives" - she's already part and parcel, and when the grief is less raw and we're equipped with the knowledge to do so fairly and securely, we will move into our new chapter of life together.

@CoronaIsWatching - that question is the very reason I started this thread.

I think you should involve your brother in any discussions- including how finances will work when your DM passes and what would happen if she became very ill. I've seen families fall our badly over similar situations- one sibling upset that they ended up doing all the difficult work to look after a sick parent whilst the other just turned up with gifts every few months, the other felt he had lost his inheritance.

You should also consider what would happen if your DM needs more care than you can provide at some point- would you have funds to pay for any care she needs without selling her 'share' of the family home?

What if you die?
Unlikely I know but not impossible

@Hoppinggreen

What if you die? Unlikely I know but not impossible

Good point.

If the OP dies then her husband will almost certainly remarry very quickly. And will end up sharing a house with his late wife’s mother and perhaps her new partner.

Then when the MIL dies, he could be sharing a house with her partner.

The OPs brother might reasonably expect to her his inheritance from his mother when his mother dies. But he can’t get it even then , because the house is being lived in by his mums partner, his former BIL and his new wife and kids.

Under most wills, both may have the right to live there until they die!

It all gets very complicated. At some point one person will want to sell up and move on. It’s fine if they both want to sell of course but tough if it’s only one party.

I know that most people don’t want to think about their DP/Dh getting remarried / having a new partner after they die but most men meet someone else very quickly.

And we’ve not even considered how it might work in the case of divorce, which is much likely ( one in three last time I checked ).

Sorry to talk about this so bluntly OP but I think that’s what you asked at the start of the thread ?

If your mum is late 60s she could potentially live with you for the next 20yrs. It might be more appealing now when you’ve got young kids and she’s young and fit but long term would you (and your husband) be happy to have her sharing your space when your kids have flown the nest?

I think with regards to your brother the best thing you can do is include him in the conversations. Don’t shy away from talking about things like inheritance and the financial issues. It sounds like you’re a close family, you need to frankly discuss all the issues and scenarios that have come up here and be willing to walk away from the plan if it’s not working for everyone

In my old job I dealt with things like this all the time. Here are some things to consider.

• It's strongly advised not to make any huge decisions for the first 2-3 years. People say a year, we found often the second year was worse for grief and decisions made then wouldn't be decisions made 5 years later.
• Your Mum's age is very young to do this. Not saying it couldn't work, but realities change. People meet someone, even people who never think they will. It may not be sexual, but a best friend and male companion and they begin to do nice things together like travel, even if just within the country.
• There is nothing to make siblings fall out like money.

Here's the only situation in which I'd consider doing what you are doing

• At least three years after Dad's death and Mum having had support with grief. Doing all possible to ensure it's not a decision based on loneliness, trauma etc.
• Whatever share Mum put into the home, she had the same amount left in cash to become brother's inheritance. So if she put 100K in, she had 100k in an account for brother down the road that would be untouched.
• She had money to live well. Too often people buy into children's homes and put most of their money in or by time they've matched the inheritance they have nothing left. No one selling a family home should be left with nothing in the bank for their enjoyment. Your Mum may not think this is important now but that's the grief. She should be able to go to M&S and buy herself some luxuries without having to count her pennies. She should be able to go on a UK break and know if she likes the sound of another one, she can book to do another one in a few months.

These house situations often leave siblings at war, result in the loss of the family money in divorce, or leave grandparents putting all they have into a forever family home that benefits their kids but doesn't much benefit them, especially if they are too young to need any care.

Also I think you should both have an independent lawyer who can walk you both through it. OP even wonderful marriages with the spouse everyone loves sometimes end in very sad situations. You have to plan for every eventuality.

If it was me in your circumstance, I'd be more likely to encourage Mum to stay in the family home until at least 2 years had passed and then look at both smaller bungalows near you and the housing option together with completely separate entrance, lounge, kitchen, full bathroom, bedroom etc. But I wouldn't ever rush into the latter especially not with someone who is newly grieving.

I was the grandchild of this situation, op.

It pretty much broke up my mum's side of the family and i have very little to do with those relatives now.

• gran became frail and it's one thing living with an independant 60 year old vs. frail demented 80 year old who needs help toileting and bathing, who doesn't even recognise you or (worse, later) becomes violent because they're scared there is a stranger in their home

• mum's siblings were fine about the finances but some of them aren't doing well financially, health wise etc and there was no option for gran in her early years of living with us to help out.. it was ALL put into the family pot. no flex at all.

• mum became a resentful carer and the family dynamic massively changed for the worse.

• gran's will was contested by a family member, legally, and partly won (basically gran didn't want mum to be left with a 8th of the will, when she was doing 100% of her care)

worse, now mum is left with a home that's now too big for her and cannot maintain, and it NEEDS some major work like the roof leaks.. and now that her and dad are split up.. meaning the forever family home concept didn't even last 20 years!

it was an awful move from a number of different angles. i'm not saying you will fare as badly, but my mum cannot even afford legal and tax advice to deal with how to unpick the situation, and is just ignoring it...

no one won from that set up - me, my sibilings, my extended family - it was an expensive, messy mistake to think 3 generations living under 1 roof was a good idea.

Everyone should take note of what Lucy has written. It seldom works for anybody in the end.

Sorry for your loss OP
However as @Irisheyesrsmiling says it’s yesrs too soon to make big decisions like this .

I have been witness to many bad decisions made in the first year post bereavement.. many similar to what’s been described here .

Don’t do anything right now .. it won’t solve grief or loneliness but will just bring more troubles to your door..

Please take care and don’t rush into anything.

thank you Viviennemary

i loved my grandma but the reality of it means i lump my childhood into two parts..

until age 8, living in the same village as my gran, normal setup, normal house, normal healthy grandparent relationship.

after 8-9ish, we moved into a single family home.. mum had quite a few rows with gran over stepping the parenting boundaries.. then gran got iller, frailer, needed external care but all her cash was used to help buy the house. then physical ill health turned into dementia, and my childhood was swamped by the impact on the family - no fun days out at the weekend any more, because gran can't travel far or walk much. carers 24hrs a day to give my mum help (she couldn't lift her, we ended up needing to get building work done to sort out a hoist for getting her washed, then overnight carers because gran would leave the cooker on, or wander off outside, if we didn't lock her in).

the last few years with gran were miserable, and i moved out far far too early to escape it. and gran needed proper OUTSIDE the home care in a proper care home in the end... which she was in the midst of a battle trying to get, because the council wouldn't pay for it since she owned half the house...

honestly, it was fucking horrible, and was organised from a good place of taking a perfectly happy setup and trying to merge it into a single family unit. it just didn't work, and i know that's not everyone.. but it was awful and i prefer to think of my gran BEFORE we moved in together when i remember her.

That sounds awful Lucy. I'm so sorry.

Our situation was slightly different. We have 4 children and had been looking on and off for years for a house to share with my parents. But because of the list of things we needed and wanted nothing was suitable.
We ended up selling our own house which was way too small for us and expanding Mam and Dad's house into a 6 bedroom with small seperate living space. Which we then bought outright from them at a discounted price. The solicitor drew up a document stating they had no financial interest in the house and the reduced price was the equivalent of a gifted deposit. At this point I was 40 and DH 45 with parents 60. Children ranging from 1yo to teenagers.
I have 1 sibling and it was discussed in depth about the money but they insisted they were not expecting money on the house when parents died and had expected them to sell it and spend the money in their old age. Before we moved in properly we insisted they went through the house and took anything they wanted including Mams best China.
We lived together quite happily with parents taking lots of long holidays and staying abroad for months at a time as they had no financial obligations for nearly 10 years until Mam died suddenly.
Afterwards it was good to be close to Dad but still be able to give him space. He has recently met somebody and spends a lot of time at her house now.
It worked / works really well for us. But you have to think of everything beforehand and make sure all financials are sorted and nobody has expectations that everybody is not aware of.

what would happen if you died? terrible to say but its a possibility - that would leave your dh and dm living together...
what would happen if your mum moved in and you find that living together is to much, or your all busy and she's lonely?

I would wait for another few months and come back to the idea and not rush in

could your mum afford to sell the family home and give your brother a windfall now instead of an inheritance in her will?

Would your mums names be on the deeds to the house?

Ask your mum this

would she like to move into a smaller rented property now and rent her own property out (this gives her the option to move back into the property if she doesn't like it)

Then ask her is she ready to pack up the last 50 years into boxes and get rid of some of the items? My thinking is she will probably want to slow things down as packing up and moving will be a big thing.

I find it distasteful that people refer to your mum's money as your brother's inheritance. If a person wants to house share with a child and only one child is offering to have them, and they are looking at a 30 year arrangement, why should whether it is fair in another child potentially decades down the line impact on the parent being able to live in the house that they want?
It feels like childish whining 'its not faaaair' for your mum not to be able to live her life as she chooses because of a money situation when she's dead. I'd be fine with my brother or my husband's siblings inheriting pretty much everything if it meant the parent got to live with them (if that was what everyone wanted).
There are other flaws in your plan, like the government potentially wanting a share if mum gets dementia and ends up in a home, but of your brother is decent he will be happy for your mum.