Appealing PIP decision

[Pegs11]

Hi, just wondered if anyone has gone to tribunal for their PIP. How long did it take after you sent off your form to get a decision? We have waited a year already from first applying and that’s even before we’ve sent our appeal form off. I have heard it can take up to another year to get a tribunal hearing, which means two years in total of waiting. Is this normal? It seems insane.

Also, what if you aren’t well enough to attend the hearing, even by phone or video call... or if you are unable to answer any questions because you feel too ill or anxious or get brain-block?

Thank you.

I work for an organisation who help people to appeal PIP decisions. If you are too unwell to attend then you can have a representative go to the tribunal. Most tribunals are by phone at the moment due to covid. It can take about a year to get to tribunal.

@Babyroobs Thanks. How do we find a representative to attend with us? Which organisations are best to help us with filling in the Appeal form? Thank you so much

[quote Pegs11]@Babyroobs Thanks. How do we find a representative to attend with us? Which organisations are best to help us with filling in the Appeal form? Thank you so much[/quote]
CAB can help or maybe if your council has a local welfare rights department, or charities specific to your condition may be able to help for example if you have a cancer diagnosis then Macmillan may help or if mental health related then a mental health charity may have representatives.

@Pegs11

Hi, just wondered if anyone has gone to tribunal for their PIP. How long did it take after you sent off your form to get a decision? We have waited a year already from first applying and that’s even before we’ve sent our appeal form off. I have heard it can take up to another year to get a tribunal hearing, which means two years in total of waiting. Is this normal? It seems insane.

Also, what if you aren’t well enough to attend the hearing, even by phone or video call... or if you are unable to answer any questions because you feel too ill or anxious or get brain-block?

Thank you.

Did you score any points at all ? Have you done a mandatory reconsideration?

Thank you. Yes I did score points but not enough. I got my MR rejected... their decision letter was ridiculous, it was full of factual inaccuracies. They said I wasn’t under a mental health team or a chronic fatigue team, which I told them I was, gave them all the contact details and urged them to get in touch. Now because of those factual inaccuracies I have to wait up to a year before I can challenge them? This seems utterly insane to me :(

They didn’t even contact my GP!

They don't contact any one that you list as a matter of course. I would resend the details with medical proof of the innaccuracies to them. Unfortunately the wait for a tribunal is long it took 1.5 years for my daughters

The Benefits and Work website is good.

Also do contact your MP and ask them to intervene.

This crap makes me so angry. It's so destructive. Sorry

It's best to send as much medical evidence/ reports with the initial form to stand the best chance of being awarded. At the end of the day you have to show evidence that your condition affects your daily life and mobility in relation to the descriptors.

Hi @Babyroobs. Can I do as @chugnut suggests and re-send my MR form to DWP and include the evidence from my medical professionals, and ask them to look at it again? Or is that a waste of time?

What happens if I get better between now and the tribunal? That is possible! Given that the tribunal could take 1.5 years...

I would have then spent years being ill, with no support. I’ve got myself into debt paying for things that PIP should be paying for, like therapy, which I couldn’t get on the NHS as they deemed my case “too severe“ for them to deal with ... I am spending £80 a week on crucial therapy, and my ESA doesn’t cover it. I’m getting into debt. I really need that money 😞

@Pegs11

Hi *@Babyroobs. Can I do as @chugnut* suggests and re-send my MR form to DWP and include the evidence from my medical professionals, and ask them to look at it again? Or is that a waste of time?

What happens if I get better between now and the tribunal? That is possible! Given that the tribunal could take 1.5 years...

I would have then spent years being ill, with no support. I’ve got myself into debt paying for things that PIP should be paying for, like therapy, which I couldn’t get on the NHS as they deemed my case “too severe“ for them to deal with ... I am spending £80 a week on crucial therapy, and my ESA doesn’t cover it. I’m getting into debt. I really need that money 😞

I really don't think you can ask for a second MR when the first one has been turned down. You can send additional evidence to the tribunal service which is independent to the DWP. When your case gets to tribunal it will be based on how you were at the original time of the assessment, so it wont matter if you get better in the mean time. If awarded at tribunal, the PIP payment will be back dated. Sorry I know that doesn't help you with costs now. It's an awful system and completely overwhelmed which is why the tribunal system is overwhelmed. There doesn't seem to be any consistency with who does and doesn't get an award to be honest. I see some people in my line of work and think how on earth did they get enhanced rates on both components and other who I was absolutely sure would get awarded with no problem are refused and have to go to tribunal. The decisions never cease to amaze me !! I attended a PIP assessment with a client in his home, he had spinal fractures and could barely move and didn't get awarded enhanced mobility as expected.

It’s just insane, @Babyroobs. I know people who are rinsing the system and to be honest, the ones I’ve met who are doing it are multi-millionaires.

I know I shouldn’t really be using this post as an opportunity to whinge but I am upset... this is the latest blow in a string of blows from the government departments that are apparently there to help us, over the last 8 years since I became very seriously ill with cancer (now dealt with, but has left me with some serious health issues). I really have been let down by the system so badly in the last 8 years. At every turn I have been disbelieved, neglected, patronised, misdiagnosed, kicked out of referrals with no explanation given, told I can’t be helped, and refused help when I needed it most. All of which has only served to make things worse for me. My career has been ruined by my illness and now I can’t even afford therapy to try and deal with it all.

This thread helped me win my PIP tribunal.

It's worth reading all of, but for me the most important information was to submit the ESA85s that the DWP had been sending for my ESA.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3497761-To-ask-for-help-with-PIP-descriptors-and-regulations

I'm not up-to-date with how things are now, but a few years ago I waited around 18 months for a tribunal.

I also second joining Benefits and Work. They usually have very good advice.

My advice (in "normal" times) would be to re apply, it would be quicker than waiting for appeal/tribunal.
If you do re apply then make sure you have a copy of your PA4 from the original assessment so you can see exactly where they have missed info off/used non existent evidence to make their point.
Also, as PP has said, IAS/Capita are under no obligation to contact any of the professionals you have listed. When you apply send in as much relevant information as you can, even if the assessor doesn't take much notice the decision maker will and MR. Send things which state your conditions, symptoms, treatment and/or input.

BTW, I know what you mean at feeling let down. It's so destructive when you put your trust in departments supposedly there to help you – and then they kick you in the teeth.

For me, realising the DWP is not attempting to do a good job or treat me fairly has been very helpful. They see me as the enemy; so I see them as the enemy. I perpetually expect them to act in bad faith – so I cover my back, and see any positive outcome from them ever as an unexpected bonus.

The Mandatory Reviews seem to be a meaningless extra hoop for you to jump through, to help the DWP delay the Tribunal and to try to discourage you from continuing.

The tribunals, on the other hand, are run by the courts service and are independent.

My daughters tribunal came quite quickly. We put in the pip application in June and the tribunal was in February just before Covid and lockdown. We went from no points to enhanced rate so it is worth trying. It was all back paid to when her dla finished. We went to a local charity (SpeakEasy) that helps with the tribunal after cab was useless at the MR stage. They helped us write the rebuttal but wouldn’t come to the tribunal with us.

@Pegs11

It’s just insane, *@Babyroobs*. I know people who are rinsing the system and to be honest, the ones I’ve met who are doing it are multi-millionaires.

I know I shouldn’t really be using this post as an opportunity to whinge but I am upset... this is the latest blow in a string of blows from the government departments that are apparently there to help us, over the last 8 years since I became very seriously ill with cancer (now dealt with, but has left me with some serious health issues). I really have been let down by the system so badly in the last 8 years. At every turn I have been disbelieved, neglected, patronised, misdiagnosed, kicked out of referrals with no explanation given, told I can’t be helped, and refused help when I needed it most. All of which has only served to make things worse for me. My career has been ruined by my illness and now I can’t even afford therapy to try and deal with it all.

If you have had a cancer diagnosis, then I would see if there is a local Macmillan benefits advice team in your area with caseworkers who can help with your appeal. If you go to the Macmillan website it will tell you what is available in your area or if you ring the helpline then they could advise you of where you can get help locally. I would strongly advise getting help from a representative who can help you win your appeal.

You could tell them you no longer wish to proceed with your claim and cancel your claim. Then reapply with a new claim. This will mean your claim will not be backdated to your original application. However, there is no guaranteeing you will win an appeal anyway. If you submit a new claim you might be awarded Pip now with no difficulty and you will get the help you need now.

Don't cancel! According to the Benefits And Work forum, you can apparently keep on going to Tribunal with claim #1 and also start a new claim #2 as a kind of insurance policy. Claim #2 is unlikely to overtake Claim #1.

You need to win Claim #1 to get the backdate.

Check it out with an experienced PIP advisor, though.

Thank you, I will check that out.

I think I was being monitored by someone from DWP after my initial application.... I have a fluctuating condition, and sometimes I am able to do more “normal” things. The way it works with me is that I might have, say, ten bad weeks where I can do hardly anything... where even getting up the stairs is difficult... then two or three weeks of being kind of ok, and able to do pretty much normal stuff.

During one of these better periods, a few weeks ago, I was pottering around in my front garden, doing some lifting... and I saw a car parked outside my house and a bloke watching me. Then a few days after that I saw him again while putting my dog in the car to take her for a walk. I never saw him again after that. It was really suspicious.

If they monitored me at the one week out of three months where I was able to go out and do stuff, then that’s f*king unlucky.

DWP are reluctant to give any credence to fluctuation conditions... I will have to get my CFS team to write a letter for the appeal explaining how my CFS affects me. I probably should have included it with my mandatory reconsideration appeal... except that the CFS clinic told me the DWP normally contact them for evidence so I thought I wouldn’t have to, I just put their contact details on the form and urged them to get in touch with the clinic. My GP said the same thing so I just our her contact details too.

Not only did they fail to contact any of my medical professionals, but they also stated in their decision letter that I’m NOT under the care of a chronic fatigue team!!

They did the same with my Mental Health team, saying “you’re not under the care of a mental health team” when I explicitly told them I was and provided contact details for my psychiatrist. It’s infuriating.

Could they use the monitoring against me at tribunal? I’m scared.

Do you feel up to keeping a daily "activity diary" for a month or more? It will show the fluctuations. Then you can comfortably state that the activity you were seen doing (if they mention it) is typical for a better week, and you have other worse weeks.

The phrase "for the majority of days" comes up a lot in the scoring of applications: along with "reliably, repeatedly and safely" for your ability to do activities. IIRC (but check w Benefits & Work): if you cannot do something reliably, repeatedly and safely on the majority of days, then you are deemed to not be able to do it.

When my tribunal came round, I submitted new evidence directly to the tribunal, including such an activity diary. Mine was only a fortnight's worth, as I only started it when I got the tribunal date.

I completed an appeal (after an MR where they increased some of the points) on behalf of a family member. It took a year to get to court. We went on the day and I thought it had gone appallingly badly. The judge kept telling me to keep quiet and I was struggling as my relative has MH issues and thinks they can do more than they can. I was then given an opportunity to have my say after my relative. I came away feeling totally wrung out and presumed the case had been lost. Two weeks later, my relative found out he had won the case.

@perkingfaintly I did make it really clear on my form and at the assessment that I couldn’t do the activity descriptors on the majority of days, and looked at each of the “repeatedly”, “reliably” etc points in them, for each descriptor, I don’t think I could have been more clear. But in their original decision letter, and this most recent one, they keep referring back to my assessment and saying things like that I “demonstrated adequate recall” (one of my symptoms is memory loss). They ignored the fact that my condition fluctuates despite me explaining this time and time again. I should have got my CFS clinic to write a letter for me that I could submit as evidence. But as I said, the clinic said the DWP would normally contact them as a matter of course, so I thought I didn’t have to. Thanks, clinic!

They basically ignored everything I wrote and just went off the assessment, which took place on a day when I was functioning at about 70%.

It sounds like I just didn’t include enough evidence with my application, and that I was misinformed about what constitutes evidence. I thought putting the contact details for my medical professionals would have been enough.

Now I feel stupid and like I’ve wasted a whole heap of time and missed my opportunity... and now I have to wait up to 18 months for an appeal date. Great.

Can I really not get my medical professionals to write letters of evidence and send them to DWP and ask them to look again at my mandatory reconsideration?

Sounds like you did a really good job on your form.

The DWP and ATOS are slime and just lie, so they're not really your target audience now.

Target audience is now the tribunal. For some reason, people find diaries more compelling than a summary where you one says "fluctuating."

In my diary, I didn't just list what I actually completed; I listed tasks I'd hoped to do each day, but had been unable to do. So mine said things like, "Still unable to wash hair today. Planned to put in half-dozen spring bulbs, but had to cancel as not well enough."