Could do with a bit of advice - pub built a smoking shelter right on to our back garden - not sure what to do....

[bozza]

We have lived in our new build house on a small cul-de-sac for seven years without any problem. The house has a garden of about 10 metres in length which slopes uphill and backs on to the premises of one of the village pubs but there is a wall topped by a high fence with a tree and shrub border on our side. This has been fine. There has bee a bit of noise - odd car door slamming, noise of beer barrels being delivered in the morning, distant strains of kareoke etc but nothing that we can't cope with.

However about a month ago (just before we went on holiday for a fortnight) the pub contructed a smoking shelter in what was the private back garden. Basically they changed a window into a door and built a veranda with decking and a clear perspex roof. This is probably about 3m from our boundary.

The smoke does not drift over but the noise does! There is noise of talking (loud and drunken) and laughing and also extra noise from the pub every time the door is opened. So far we have coped by having music on when reading etc in bed and by both wearing ear plugs although the first Friday night it kept me awake for about 3 hours. But we have to keep the windows closed on our and DD's bedrooms (both at the back of the house). Also bear in mind because of the slope the shelter is nearer the level of upstairs windows than it would be on flat ground.

What course of action would you recommend. And does anyone know if it is legal to change the use of a private garden to a beer garden?

I feel very agrieved that banning smoking in public places is having such an adverse affect on our family when neither DH nor I have ever smoked a cigarette in our lives.

Hmm, well depends on the shelter. If it is oversized it counts as a building and no-one can smoke under it. Hang on I'll look up the regs......

nightmare!

I would contact the council (environmental health deal with noise nuisance) and discuss with them

They have great procedures now and I have found them INCREDIBLY effective and helpful

I really hope you get it sorted!

Here you go: basically you can't smoke in enclosed spaces:

Premises are considered 'enclosed' if they have a ceiling or roof and (except for doors, windows or passageways) are wholly enclosed either on a permanent or temporary basis.

Premises are considered 'substantially enclosed' if they have a ceiling or roof, but have an opening in the walls, which is less than half the total area of the walls. The area of the opening does not include doors, windows or any other fittings that can be opened or shut.

If you require further guidance on whether your premises are 'enclosed' or 'substantially enclosed' please contact your local council.

This is from here

What I suggest you do is talk to your local council, both noise abatement and also ask who is responsible for enforcing the ban. It may be that they will ban smoking under the canopy and everyone will desert it. However do remember that the weather will soon deteriorate and people are stopping smoking more and more so it might fix itself.

Understand your frustration though - I hate noisy neighbours and smoke!

I would think they would have had to apply for planning for this.

I was reading our local planning applications in the paper earlier and I noticed one for a local pub who are planning to build a "timber framed external shelter" and alter the entrance doors, I assume probably for the same reasons.

I would definitely check this out with your local council planning dept.

this sounds like an extension, and would certainly (IMO) need planning permission as the pub is a commercial premises and therefore has no permitted development rights. Get in touch with your local planning team at the Council. They should have enforcement officers who will visit to assess the development and will then either request a planning application in an attempt to regularise the situation (at which stage you would have the opportunity to put in written objections) or will serve an enforcement notice requesting that the structure be demolished.

If a planning application is submitted they would take into account the impact of the proposal on your amenity, including noise and disturbance.

Maybe I should give a better explanation. The back of the pub forms an L shape. The door comes out of the side of the L that is at right angles to our garden. Then there is about a metre gap. Then there is this canopy, which is a sloping roof from the side of the L that is parallel with our fence supported by two posts at each corner. So it has a roof and one wall.

I did do a search on smoking shelters and planning permission for my own council and there was mention of noise as one issue.

But part of my question is whether to go to the council first or not. My FIL suggests approaching the licensee directly and mentioning our issues with them in a non-confrontational manner. I did think I could do this and ask them to put up signs asking for consideration to neighbours (not sure that'll make much difference) and for them to ensure the new door remains closed.

Thanks all for you time on a Saturday evening btw.

I would go straight to the planners. If you approached the landlord and he tells you to go away, and then you contact the planners, he will suspect it was you and it may make life difficult. You don't need to tell the planners your name and even if you did I doubt they would divulge it to the landlord.

If he had applied for formal planning permission you would have had a neighbour notification, so it would seem that he hasn't done a formal application.

Call the planning department and let them sort it out.

Are any of your neighbours affected as well? how do they feel about it?

New neighbours at one side so not sure, and house empty at other side. Will talk to new neighbours who seem quite nice but we have been on holiday for two weeks so this is only our second weekend of being around for it.

I'd go straight to the planners too. When I worked for the Council I dealt with an application for a barbeque hut (basically just a canopy) and decking at the back of a pub next to a residential property. Permission got refused for that (and it had already been built), the appeal was dismissed and they ahd to take it down.

Is there any space at the front where they could put this instead, bozza? That probably wouldn't make much difference to the neighbours there (there will have been open door, noise etc before)

Personally I reckon that if you want to smoke you should stand outside in the rain. And I am an occasional smoker myself. I am just a bit wary that putting up structures to provide a haven for smokers is also a way of extending your premises without going through the proper channels.
What's wrong with an umbrella?

Well, of course, pooka, I agree with you, but then I would wouldn't I? Wendy there is a narrow area between the pub and the stree which has 3 or 4 of the picnic bench type tables and there are often people there during the daylight hours. The shelter doesn't seem to get used until into the evening.

Actually I was out in the garden last night watering my plants and there was a couple out having a conversation, and I could hear every word they said and I am sure they had no idea I was there, but unfortunately it wasn't very interesting.

I have been looking on the planning site and there were not plans received for that street in 2007, so they have not applied for planning permission.

I have also looked at the council document regarding smoking shelters and have found the following:

The following operations and uses will probably need planning permission -
· Permanent external smoking shelter structures, whether freestanding or attached to existing
buildings. Any structure that needs foundations and/or cannot be easily disassembled will be
regarded as ?permanent?
· Awnings / canopies / blinds attached to buildings ? these will almost always have a material
effect on the external appearance of a building
· Use of any land as a beer garden or yard, where the land does not form part of the business
premises
· Construction of timber decking

The following operations and uses will probably not need planning permission -
· Portable freestanding awnings / canopies and space heaters. If permanently fixed to the ground
they will need planning approval.
· The use of beer gardens and yards, where these are ancillary to the main pub / restaurant use
and are lawfully part of the existing business. Note ? you will need a licence to place chairs or
tables on the public highway

So they have timber decking which does require permission. Not sure whether the yard counts as "business premises" or not because it was used as a private area previously. So not sure which way it would go on that one.

Also I found this bit:

Will the location / siting of the shelter / awning have any adverse amenity impact in terms of:

• visual intrusion
• character and appearance of the area
• loss of outlook
• overlooking of adjacent residential premises
• light pollution
• siting adjacent to doors / windows/ air intake systems - whether within or adjacent to the premises
• secondhand smoke infiltration into adjacent residential or commercial premises
• introduction or intensification of activity and disturbance near noise sensitive premises, particularly in the late evening (e.g. placing a shelter near adjacent houses).

The last point seems particularly relevent.

I still haven't psyched myself up to approach planning yet.

The verandah with the perspex roof would also need permission, as well as the decking.
Personally, I'd get onto planning asap, because these things can be protracted, and presumably it'll get more concentrated use as the weather worsens (though you'll be more likely to be inside too).

You know pooka, I was thinking of building a small veranda with a perspex roof outside my back door for those friends of mine who come round and smoke but having seen your advice I may give it a miss and put a couple of umbrellas by the back door instead...

You'd need permission too!

Hmm - in Scotland anyway any smoking shelter built up against a boundary wall has to go through planning, and have extra fireproofing etc. regs applied too.

I'd phone the council pdq and find out if planning was needed, if it was why it wasn't applied for (you would have been notified in writing), and what options you have in terms of noise abatement regs.

I run a hotel, in Scotland though, so my knowledge may not be completely accurate re. the situation south of the border.

It's not so much an issue for us in the garden pooka. It is the fact that our and DD's bedrooms are at the back of the house and even with the windows closed and wearing ear plugs I can still hear the noise which on some nights (but bizarrely not Saturday) it can go on into the early hours.

Glad it doesn't seem to wake your girls. I have a bit of a screechey neighbour, who stands at her back door to smoke, then talks/shouts back into the house to her DH. It is annoying at 11pm, but doesn't wake dd1 whose bedroom is right above. But I also can't leave the window open or I'm sure it would wake her. I can't hear her in bed, but I can hear her in my front room with the telly on.

Mind you I probably make up for it screeching at the kids at 630 am

Bozza.....you've done your research, now call them! I deal with planning departments in the course of my job as a structural engineer and they are generally a nice bunch. Also they don't take illegal structures lightly so will be very helpful I'm sure.

Go on, call them today...you know you want to

LOL at daisy. You are right but I think I will leave it until tomorrow when I am not at work. I am fortunate that my children are not often woken up by noise, eg never had a problem at bonfire night, even when the next door neighbours had a firework party.

It sounds like the shelter is illegal. Our local paper is full of planning applications for smoking shelters. Several have been refused on similar osrts of grounds to yours.

I would definately approach the council.

Just wanted to come back on here and thank everyone who gave me advice and support back then. We contacted the council, who were unaware of the structure and sent round a planning officer who said it definitely did require planning permission. So obviously the pub put in a retrospective application..... and

It has been rejected.

Partly because of noise to local residents but also because of the impact of its appearance on the grade 2 listed church next door. I actually thought the shelter was quite tasteful and well-built, just in the wrong place so was surprised at this. I wonder if after the planning whatsits went up on the lamp posts somebody from the Church also complained. I would imagine they can hear the noise inside the church as well. I can definitely hear hymns in my garden.

Not all over yet, because although it was rejected on 28 Dec they are still using it (heavily over holiday period) and I am sure they will appeal.

Thanks again.

Keep complaining.
When there is a lot of noise - complain. It will all come up in the appeal. Get other nearby neighbours to complain too, if you can.
Also - if they changed a private domestic garden into part of the pub premises they would need Change of Use permission, I think. Also under the Planning Department regulation.