Husband's secret credit cards (long sorry)

[stoneysongs]

My husband has just told me that he has three credit cards I didn't know about, and that he owes £30k. I don't know where to start really.. this has happened twice before, first time was £1000, he consolidated that and his overdraft into a loan and we agreed only to use the card for emergencies. A few years later he had run up £6000, at which point we worked out a proper budget, he gave the card to me and promised that was it. And now this. Three times he has taken the decision to get another credit card.

We have been married for 17 years and have 2 dc, 13 and 10. We have separate accounts and both pay for different things - he earns more than I do and pays the mortgage and bills, I pay phones/tv, birthdays, Christmas, holidays, everybody's clothes and a few other bits and bobs. He says he has spent it on living costs but I will find out whether that's true at the weekend when we go through the statements. He says he just couldn't bring himself to tell me that he wasn't managing, even though he knew perfectly well that I was able to save a bit for the holiday fund most months. We can put it on the mortgage and maybe absorb it that way but I'm not sure whether I want to take on half of it.

At a loss really, has anyone else been there? I find it hard to believe he has spent that much on living costs and am terrified of what I am going to see on the statements. He is a very nice guy, lovely dad, works from home, no expensive hobbies. Any help / advice gratefully received.

Consolidating debts into a mortgage is rarely a good idea - have a look at the example in this article and consider how much it would cost you in interest over the lifetime of the mortgage. It's even less a good idea when it 'magically' makes his debt problem go away, meaning in two years' time you'll be back here only this time the debt will be 60 grand.

Instead I would suggest to him that he speaks to StepChange (he speaks to them, not you) and he does a Statement of Affairs at The Motley Fool's Dealing with Debt board or MoneySavingExpert's Debt Free Wannabe board.

It's imperative that he really has to face the extent of the debt and the timescales for paying it off without a bail out.

if you had an idea of what things cost would you not see that as a family you were over spending each month if its went on family day to day costs? assuming the money hasn't been gambled away can you afford your lifestyle? what will you do if the money has genuinely went on day to day costs?

ive no idea what I would do tbh, I would just want to punch him...

Thank you ANameToHide I really appreciate your posts. I reckon I could only stay if I can find a way of understanding, forgiving and accepting it. Probably a few months of counselling down the line and dependent on there not being some horrible surprise when I see the statements.

Hopelessly I will look into all the ramifications. Retraining means 2 years in full-time education (cost £18K but with a loan and funded by redundancy), so minimal income for two years, then starting salary is much lower than what I earn now. It will make me more dependent on him financially. But happier at work. He let me get all excited about it, proofread my personal statement etc!

Staying with him would depend entirely (for me anyway) on what he has spent the money on. Mortgage payments? Gas bill? Council tax etc would be understandable. Gambling, crap for a hobby, nights in the pub? Not a chance in hell.
Also, if my DH came to me and told me what he'd done and apologised v's being forced to tell me and only apologising because he doesn't want me to be angry or doesn't want any atmosphere in the house, again that would make a big difference.
Without wishing to turn the knife, you too are, to a certain degree responsible for this. You enable his behaviour, he racks up debt, you go mad, sort it all out, clear up his mess and start again. Not once but THREE times! How many more times? How much more debt? You're going to be heading towards retirement still paying off this mans debts and wiping his arse for him. He knows this, to his mind he's probably thinking 'she's going to go mad, but it's only for a few days, she'll sort it and then everything will go back to normal'.
I couldn't have any respect for a man that I have to mother and give pocket money to. He's abused your trust and your patience too many times.

Thank you for the advice Rubber and trib
peggy It never crossed my mind that we were overspending, if I couldn't manage I would tell him and I 'knew' he would do the same. We get paid 2 weeks apart and occasionally in the week before his payday he would say can you lend me £200 till next week, and I would do the same if I had a cash flow problem. We did a budget together a few years ago which divvied up the outgoings and left us both with spending money, I look after my income / spending and he does the same. He seems to have forgotten to mention that there was a problem. Maybe I should have realised, I didn't though and I guess that is on me.

If it turns out to have gone on day to day costs we will have to look at it all and work out a new budget, which of course now includes repayments when it didn't before. We do go on holiday, so could cut that. The kids have music lessons and sports clubs, could cut that. DS's ski trip is paid for so he can still do that, but looks unlikely now that we will be able to do the same for DD. We could get rid of Sky (although it's only the basic package), I give £20 to ActionAid and £7 to Cancer Research each month, could stop that. We could both get second jobs I guess, we have quite a lot of books and CDs we could sell. Online Asda shopping, which I like but he hates doing, rather than trips to Tesco. The usual stuff. I don't mind living frugally but would prefer to keep the kids activities if at all possible.

Debts run up during the duration of a marriage are marital debts. In the event of divorce these debts are split 50/50.

My ExH ran up credit card debts. Took out a loan to pay for them. Ran up more credit card debts. Extended the mortgage to cover the loan and the new cards. Then did it all again. I took the cards off him and cut them up. He contacted card company to say he'd lost the card. They sent him a new card and he also opened an online loan account. All this was done behind my back until he got to the point he had to come clean and he rejigged finances. Then it started again without my knowledge. I had no access to the cards or loans. My name was not on them.

After 10 years he'd amassed £50k of debt. When I was starting the process of divorcing him (he was EA) I was advised by my solicitor that I would be responsible for half of these debts. By this point he had a debt agency involved. My credit was ruined and took 5 years to improve.

If you're going to stay together I'd be insisting on taking over the finances. Towards the end I was opening all the mail and keeping an eye on the online account. He was blacklisted so no chance of anymore cards for either of us. I was literally watching him withdraw £20 or £30 a day to spend at work! Had to start transferring money out of the account in the end to stop him doing it as he was leaving no money for food or bills.

Bloggy I like your name. I've done it twice before. Then the amount felt quite manageable and at that time we had less money so it felt more understandable, if you know what I mean. Maybe I am responsible, but at the time I believed him when he said he wouldn't do it again, and things were about to get easier - we had nearly finished paying off two loans, had recently finished paying childcare. I really believed him. It felt like we had a joint problem and we fixed it together. Now it feels like he is a twat and I'm a mug.

Staying will depend on what he's spent it on for me also. Anything other than the family and the marriage is definitely over. If it's the family, then trying to work out why and how best to fix it. I really want him to find it difficult to fix, as everyone agrees, but I don't want the children to suffer because of his idiocy. One of those may not be possible without the other though. We both earn decent salaries, we don't have an expensive house, we don't drink much or smoke, we don't have a second home, we have taken the children abroad twice, our summer holiday last year was in Europe. As far as I know, there's absolutely no reason we shouldn't be able to live comfortably and within our means. Well I'll soon find out.

I'm off for a bit now - your collective kindness keeps making me cry and DD is bringing a friend home for tea so I need to get a grip!

Thank you all.

Watching just seen your post, all horribly familiar and absolutely terrifying. It sounds as though I am a basically liable for the debt if he has spent it on day to day living.

I will definitely have to take away his access to money completely if I stay, check his account daily and his credit rating. And then as many have pointed out, what sort of a marriage is that..

I tried the cash doled out to XH approach. He'd spend it all and by day 3 was moping about like a sulky teenager, blaming me for his empty wallet.
He had done stupid things like buying a £200 thing he couldn't afford using an even more unaffordable loan he really couldn't afford. Repeatedly.

It sounds as though I am a basically liable for the debt if he has spent it on day to day living.

That's exactly right unfortunately. Unless he's spent it on a hobby/loose women/gambling/drug habit. When I left he ended up with the house, still had the debts and I was in social housing with just enough money to buy a sofa and dining table.

OP I am so sorry. Please don't put this level of unsecured debt into joint names, particularly onto a mortgage.

Ask to not only see the c/c statements but his bank statements too as he is claiming he's spent it on living costs. Without seeing the bank statements you don't know the full picture.

I would also get him to download a copy of his credit file & show you it to evidence that this is the full picture and that there's not even more debt.

This is a huge amount of money & the third time he had gotten himself in a mess after not learning from mistakes.

Please protect yourself & children by keeping the debt in his name & if you decide to stay with him get counselling

Wow, lots of strong opinions here...the most important thing is to find out the facts....and get help. We all know that life is a hell of a lot more expensive than we expect it to be, and there are always nasty financial surprises. Hopefully someone can help you look at your joint financial lives going forward and come up with something that works better for you..that encourages better ongoing communication. His current debt needs to remain his own because he chose to do it that way, and not involve you. So don't get involved with it, but do support him to sort it out. Repeated debt problems point to a deeper problem of communication and role definition within the couple, especially if you don't suspect him of gambling or galavanting around. The fact that he's willing to go through statements with you is a good sign! Join in with him mentally on the trials and tribulations of paying for family life. Sometimes men have a huge burden paying for the big necessities and also the "unexpecteds". Find a better solution going forward. I'm a big advocate of a joint account with each partner having their own savings. But you need to discuss this with a professional to find a good way forward rather than doing some of the more drastic, harsh things that have been suggested!!! It doesn't sound like your relationship is so far gone that you should split over this before trying to properly work it out, with a counselor. Go the Citizens Advice Bureau first. Good luck!

I have been in your situation.

DO NOT PUT IT ON THE MORTGAGE. As others have said this makes an unsecured debt secured.

If you are really struggling to pay, you could consider a debt management plan, in his name only. He would be unable to take out any further credit. However, if you really had an emergency and needed credit, you could have a credit card. A DMP would ruin his credit rating for 6 years though, so it's a considered choice. You would end up paying back a lot less as you wouldn't be paying interest.

You can do a self managed DMP. He would phone the credit card companies and negotiate with them to reduce payment.

Or you can get it managed by Step change.

Either way, you have to fill in a incoming and outgoing form, which may be a helpful exercise in itself.

If this is day to day spending it means that as a family you have been overspending, so you all need to budget together and become more strict. A DMP would really help with this actually.

A DMP saved my life! My partners debts were trying to save a failing business. It has been very hard but 4 years on the debt has gone.

I think you sound like a great partner but your OH has abused your position and sees you as the fixer

Well, we have opened discussions.. no horrible surprises, just frittering and complete inability to say he couldn't pay for things eg £300 car service. He said at the beginning he thought he would get on top of it eventually but admits he was not managing it properly at all. He is very contrite as well he might be.

I have explained that it's not going on the mortgage and I think he was a bit shocked by that. Also shocked by me saying I didn't know what the future of the marriage would be but that I wanted to try and sort things for a few months and see where we were. We have done a new budget and think with some adjustment and economising we should manage. He has given me all his cards including debit card and I will have access to his account, either via app or online. He accepts that any solution must involve certainty for me that he isn't doing it again. I do a budget and track spending for myself anyway so will do that for both of us now.

When he first started talking about it, it was almost as if he thought it was normal - bills come in, the money isn't in the current account, use the credit card. I have explained that this situation is not normal and that I don't want to be with a liar who can't accept responsibility. He admits that is a general problem for him and has agreed he should have counselling. We will have some joint sessions too and work on communication.

So far so good. I feel like I should see where the next few months take us. There is no rush to decide our future and if we end up divorcing I want to feel like I did what I could. Hopefully one day with some counselling behind him/us he can regain responsibility for his money. He will never have a credit card again and I will never stop monitoring his account. And hopefully one day it will feel like I look after the money because I'm better at it, just like he does most of the cooking because he's better at it. Rather than feeling like I've been massively let down.

Thanks everyone for your support!

Well done OP, sounds like you handled it well and have a plan to try and move forward.

Glad there were no hidden horrors in the statements.

When he first started talking about it, it was almost as if he thought it was normal - bills come in, the money isn't in the current account, use the credit card

Lots of people think that's normal behaviour.

the thing that stood out for me is that he was shocked you wouldn't put the debt on the mortgage. i suspect he was thinking all along that that's his safety blanket, and so it's absolutely imperative that you stick to that.

I'm glad you're not putting it on the mortgage. Ours is 2.68% and for every £1 we borrowed we repay £1.40.

You'd actually be increasing the debt not reducing. I think I would be unable to forgive a third financial fuck up.

A fourth in a few years time could lose everything & then all the monitoring & being a "good wife" is for nothing.

Understandable that you will track the spending but he has to share in the responsibility for the budgeting too. Agree the budget together each month (and it will be different each month, e.g. the car is in for a service, is there enough in the 'car service' budget category? Not quite, okay that gets extra funds this month) and do a review at the end of each month as to where you are against forecasts. It seriously won't help if he just zones out of money management.

In counselling I would want him to explain why he thought it would be okay to saddle you with half the debt via the mortgage, why that was fair or reasonable. But I would make this conditional on him organising the counselling. You can't be responsible for stage-managing every part of his life.

Well done. Don't ever put debt like that on a mortgage. If he repeats this behaviour you can't remortgage every time.

I've seen it with family members, £50k of debt run up, house mortgaged, £50k run up again, then went bankrupt, leaving family with massive mortgage as debt was now in their name!

Your H has to realise that you only buy things if you can afford them. Remove all cards from him. Tell him if he ever does it again or hides anything from you then the marriage will be over.

Don't transfer any debt into your name. Talk to Step Change and try and work out a plan to reduce the debt and clear it. Control all finances. Keep all savings in your name. I had to with XH. We managed ok. As soon as he left me he got into debt again.

OP I am glad it wasn't more than him overspending on 'stuff'. It is good that he is willing to go speak to someone about this.

Personally I have found the best way to get DH to understand budgets is to get him to do the budget. When I met DH he was terrible with money. He had no savings account and about $2k (we live in the US) in his current account. I signed us up for the Dave Ramsey course and learned a lot, even though I consider myself to be pretty good at money management. I will warn you, the course we took was hosted by a local church so there was a lot of religious content to it. I just ignored the religious side of it.

I also think you guys need a joint account. Having access is a bit too much like mothering for me. A joint account makes you both equally responsible.

I wonder if he would consider talking to debtors anonymous uk (they have a website and UK meetings). It's for people who compulsively run up debt and/or under earn. You could also look at the Debtanon website, for partners and families of compulsive debtors.