Husband's secret credit cards (long sorry)

[stoneysongs]

My husband has just told me that he has three credit cards I didn't know about, and that he owes £30k. I don't know where to start really.. this has happened twice before, first time was £1000, he consolidated that and his overdraft into a loan and we agreed only to use the card for emergencies. A few years later he had run up £6000, at which point we worked out a proper budget, he gave the card to me and promised that was it. And now this. Three times he has taken the decision to get another credit card.

We have been married for 17 years and have 2 dc, 13 and 10. We have separate accounts and both pay for different things - he earns more than I do and pays the mortgage and bills, I pay phones/tv, birthdays, Christmas, holidays, everybody's clothes and a few other bits and bobs. He says he has spent it on living costs but I will find out whether that's true at the weekend when we go through the statements. He says he just couldn't bring himself to tell me that he wasn't managing, even though he knew perfectly well that I was able to save a bit for the holiday fund most months. We can put it on the mortgage and maybe absorb it that way but I'm not sure whether I want to take on half of it.

At a loss really, has anyone else been there? I find it hard to believe he has spent that much on living costs and am terrified of what I am going to see on the statements. He is a very nice guy, lovely dad, works from home, no expensive hobbies. Any help / advice gratefully received.

It's clear he's not learning anything from his previous mistakes; he started off with £1K, then £6K and now £30K. This is out of control and the lying?? Lying through deception - lack of trust. Now he's up to three cc's and £30K debt. He racked that up without even telling her! He's leading you to financial ruin.

I am assuming you have to be the frugal one? You have to be the problem solver? Why are you left to pick up the pieces, to get his sorry arse out of another mess by being Superwoman? You will constantly do without while he spend spend spends without even telling you!

Sanctimonious and spoilt???????????? I think fucking not!!!

Oof nobody has ever been mean to me on here before! Lobelia as typed says (thank you typed) we pay for things according to our income. Last time this happened we worked out a budget together which left us both with roughly the same amount left over. Since then he has had to start paying back some child benefit so I give him half of that each month. I have managed to save, he has spent £30K on credit cards. He knew I was saving some months but didn't say that he needed that money. I don't think I am spoilt - for my birthday he got me a ticket to an event (£40) and an umbrella (which to be fair I do love). We have had nicer holidays in the last couple of years - abroad woohoo! - but agreed by him, enjoyed by us all and paid for by me as usual, safe as I was in the knowledge that we could afford it. If I had known, we would have gone camping like we used to for years when we were skint. Maybe he thinks I expect him to spend on things, but I don't and I can't work out what things those would be. Anyway, he can't seriously have thought that I would prefer him to run up £30K in debt rather than have a conversation about our finances.

Thank you Exploded and Adora, hopefully everything will become clear in a few days. I have emailed Stepchange. I think I will arrange an appointment with a solicitor next week when I have copies of everything and maybe a better idea of the outcome I want. (Basically for this not to be happening but hey ho.) Maybe a debt management plan would be a good way to go, or a way of redoing the mortgage so that my liability doesn't change, I don't know. I certainly won't be signing anything in the next few days.

eddie I think you are right. The thought of having to look after his money as if he's a child makes me furious.
Thank you Ride, now laughing and crying at the same time! When he told me it was £30K (and by the way, if it was me I would be rounding that number down so fully expecting it to be more), he had the nerve to tell me he wouldn't do it again, I couldn't believe it, I actually couldn't speak at that point.

One of you cannot be completely in the dark about finances, it only works if you're both on the same team.

Absolutely, I agree with you both. Apologies if that was a bit harsh.

This is where I am coming from - A lot of people are under huge pressure to maintain a lifestyle thats not affordable - and often that pressure comes from their own families who expect certain things because theyve always been there. But life is becoming more and more unaffordable - often people think its a disgrace / embarrassment / shameful to have to cut back or to be seen to be scaling down so they keep struggling on on credit and hiding all kinds of things - often a very lonely place to be. That may very well not be the case here , and I fully understand that the OP is angry and upset - but things very rarely happen in isolation or in a vaccuum , theres almost always a long history of events and circumstances that shape the situation - unless he's been blowing the loot on lottery tickets and consumables in which case all bets are off. Maybe its a wake up call - if the current situation cant be managed on his 'breadwinners' income - then either they have to retrench or she has to make up the shortfall. Calling for his balls on a plate or to LTB doesnt actually achieve anything. Over and out and good luck to you.

I think you need to get some more information and give yourself a few days to think things through before you make any decisions. He has broken your trust and proved himself repeatedly to be financially incompetent/irresponsible. Only you can decide if those things are marriage breakers or not. Once you make that decision you can then decide how to move forward. £30k is a lot of debt but it is manageable (depending on your general finances) if you have the will and he can be trusted to work with you. You do not necessarily need a DMP - switching the debt to 0% cards and cutting non-essential expenditure could see you clear it off in a few years. The question is, do you trust him to stick to a plan and do you care enough to forgive him for getting you both into this mess in the first place?

She she has to make up the shortfall Lobelia? I think its her head you want served up on a plate, you seem determined to make it her fault.

She did not rack up the debt

Also you need a joint bank account going forward and don't ever get a joint credit card with him. I would let him figure out how he is going to pay this back. It's a lot of money. He needs to get a second job.

For those mentioning gambling issues, £30k a year over 5 years is £6k a year. When your interest rate is 25% and you are paying financing fees the balance quickly ballons. For £6k a year I would put the amount spent at probably £3,500 a year, which is about £300 a month.

Thank you Exploded I didn't see your post earlier.

Hopelessly your post sent chills through me because every word rings true. He will say whatever it takes to stop me being angry with him. He will find reasons that are not his fault, he will do it again I know. That is very tough to think about.

Sunnie I think you're right, he has to pay this back, whether that's through debt management, IVA or whatever, we can work out what's best with help from CA and Stepchange. If that means his credit rating is wrecked, so much the better. And I will have to have total control of all the finances. I think it will be very difficult to maintain a normal relationship with that happening though.

Lobelia I'm sure you're right that it's often the case that someone spends on credit in order to avoid admitting that they are not managing. It may be the case here - in a way I hope so, it would be better than sex phonelines or gambling or a child with another woman or he has a coke habit or he's been sacked without telling me. But I am not someone that he has to impress, or at least I shouldn't be, we have been together for 20 years. We have been through some difficult times and some great times. We have had this conversation before. Our money (as far as I know) only goes on family stuff, it's effectively a joint pot and we have just ended up dividing up the financial commitments by convenience, mortgage is through his bank and was some deal relating to his current account, he pays that, he used to work in utilities, he pays utilities and changes accounts, sorts out meter readings etc. I choose most of the children's presents, I pay for those. Same with their clothes. I am more into music, I pay for the music lessons. I was offered a deal with Sky, I pay for TV, broadband, landline, I am more the 'dog person', I pay the pet insurance. There is no reason why he shouldn't have said when he was tempted to get the first credit card (which he had promised me he would never do again) - I need some credit, somehow I haven't got enough money each month, can we go through it all? Instead he got that credit card, maxed it out (presumably), then got another one, maxed that out (presumably) and then got a third one. I just can't understand why he thought that was the best option of all the options.

I wish you the best of luck singingstones - life is truly shit sometimes. Please accept my apologies - I thought some people on the thread were being judgemental and then I ended up guilty of the same thing. I hope that somehow there is a positive outcome for you, whichever way this thing takes you.

HerOtherHalf
The question is, do you trust him to stick to a plan and do you care enough to forgive him for getting you both into this mess in the first place?
No, but I could probably make it so he didn't have a choice.
And I don't know. I might care enough about the children to give it a good go. If not for them I would be off.

Want2be thanks that's very helpful - £300 a month is actually very possible I'm sure and that is quite reassuring. More hopeful it might 'just' be frittering. Not great but definitely better than some huge secret. If it's really that and all spent on the family I will be more forgiving. He would have to agree to having no control over finances though, or sling his hook. Joint account is a good idea. Or I was thinking I could have the app for his bank on my phone and check his account every day that way. Take all cards off him and give him cash for the week. Jeez, even my children don't need that kind of supervision.

That's a lot of money, if it's genuinely gone on living expenses alone then he must have been building it up over years, I don't think I could get past that, and it's the third time he's done it?

If it's living expenses then I guess the first step is working out all the outgoings and cutting down to so that they are within your salaries.

What has prompted him to come clean btw? Is there any chance recovery proceedings have been started against him? It's almost likes he runs these debts up them makes it your problem to solve, telling you because it get rids of his stress and plants it all on you? If he was taking responsibilty he'd have at least booked his own appointments with financial advisers, he'd have an idea of what needs cutting in order to pay the minimum, he should have at least put some of the work in so that it's not a case of 'here fix this for me, sorry, won't do it again'

I'd lose so much respect if the only way I could be sure it wouldn't happen a fourth, fifth etc time is to take total control of his money like child, and there's no guarentees that would stop him doing it again, you'd have to monitor his emails, his post etc sounds miserable and you'll end up resenting and probably him too. He will probably think your control of his money should stop once you are back on your feet and then there's the stress of him doing it again.

it's going to have an affect on the DC regardless, if you can't afford the lifestyle you have then there's a chance that trips abroad with school etc won't be able to happen.

Will adding his debt to the mortgage put your home at more risk? I'm just thinking you're struggling as a family to meet outgoings without credit card help, then it wint reduce current outgoings and would just give him a clean slate to start running debts up again?

I can't see any way that this will can be resolved without a lot of stress, worry and resentment on you.

CC debts are his alone

Yet on another currently running thread, where the CC are in the DW name, posters are saying they are a joint responsibility.

Thank you Lobelia I really appreciate it. And no problem, it is good to have to really think about these things from all perspectives. If it turns out that he has frittered stuff away on family things rather than ask for money from me, I will have to think hard about whether that is all his fault. Hope we can afford the counselling!

I am so glad I posted - I haven't been on for ages, since someone did one of those fake posts about a sick child. Really glad I did and grateful for everyone's responses and support.

Piglet I looked this up and Citizen's Advice say that CC debt can only ever be the card holder's responsibility. Sometimes there may be a second card, but the account holder is responsible for debt on both cards, it's not joint.

ANameToHide he came clean because I am / was considering taking voluntary redundancy and retraining and wanted to go through our budget to make sure we could afford it. When it all came out I asked him when he would have told me and he said he didn't know. I guess that makes me lucky...
You are quite right about loss of respect. My instinct is to tell him to fuck off but I will have to weigh up everything and make sure I get the best outcome for the children as well as me.
DS13 is going skiing with school at Easter - we could easily have said no to that, DS even asked whether we could afford it. DH said it would be good for him and we should encourage him to go.
I think I will be choosing between option 1: putting it on the mortgage, accepting liability and reducing our outgoings so that we can afford a similar lifestyle and maybe even carrying on with my career change plan (WHICH HE HAS ENCOURAGED, THE GIT). And option 2: not putting it on the mortgage, making him pay it all back himself and therefore having less joint income, no career change, live more frugally.
Stress, worry, resentment, yes yes yes.

Which bank is he with? Dh is with Halifax and just a few days ago wanted his banking app on my phone, the laptop recently had issues and he needed to check his balance, he works away and is paranoid about losing his phone so won't have any apps linked to money on his phone.

When we tried to set it up it it wouldn't get past the verifying it was him part of the security, as its wasn't coming the number registered with his bank account. I don't know if all banks are like that I guess it would be easily solved by changing his registered telephone number with bank.

I looked this up and Citizen's Advice say that CC debt can only ever be the card holder's responsibility.

To be chased yes.

It can however and is taken into account when souting out finances on seperation/divorce if it has been used for the family/household.

*sorting

I'd leave.

I've been through this. Much shorter relationship but I trundled on for three years despite the trust being blown apart. I was (with his consent) opening his credit card bills to check them, he had to consult me before using his credit card.. I ended up feeling like his mother. Things were never the same again.

The deceit grew like a malignancy in the remainder of our relationship, it destroyed any respect I had for him.

It wasn't the money, it was the trust.

I hope you have a happier ending.

A practical tip if you do decide to stay together - you can access your credit rating online by subscribing to a credit rating agency. They are updated when you apply for credit. This way if your dh tried to open another secret credit card you would see it when you next checked his rating. If you do decide to stay together I recommend insisting that he subscribes to this and lets you monitor it, so you can step in before his borrowing escalates.

www.moneysavingexpert.com/loans/check-free-credit-report

Although the thought of having to 'baby' him sounds tiring and frustrating. And if he is truly determined he could still borrow money unofficially eg from a loan shark. Sounds far fetched but an ex boyfriend of mine did (using his car as collateral). I never did find out where he was spending all his money.

X post

Please don't put it on the mortgage.
Although that might seem sensible financially, it means that he doesn't have to accept responsibility for his actions. The mortgage being larger doesn't feel like "real" money. It is too abstract. He will think "no harm done". Although cutting back may disadvantage the kids short term, him seeing that his overspending and credit card debt has repercussions for the whole family is the only path to him changing.

Although - can you not retrain if he pays his debt back from his salary with lifestyle cutbacks? Will your retraining make you more financially independent? That is a horrible predicament. Is there any way you can still retrain whilst he pays off the debt himself?

So if you hadn't asked to look at rebudgeting for career change you could be looking at more than 30k? Are credit cards unsecured?

I won't say LTB cos I know isn't that easy, I will say though, that staying together for the children rarely works and often just prolongs things. My mum stayed with my dad for my db and I, I was only three when they split and I have memories of how awful the atmosphere was in that house, if how tense and sad my mum was, I was talking to her a few years ago and said I remember her being "pretendy happy" when Dad was around. I can't explain it but something I cant articulate changed in her when he came come from work. She cried when I told her as she thought she had masked her unhappiness and didn't know I could remember anything from when we lived with Dad.

She left and yes we had a lot lot less, couldn't afford most of the things my friends had but honestly, life was better. If you do choose to leave him it doesn't mean you're not doing what's best if that makes sense.

I do hope he's losing as much sleep as you are. It sounds like he won't though and if anything is probably relieved and feels that you are the one who's problem it is now.

Good Luck for whatever you decide.