Should I feel richer than I do with a family income of nearly 100k?

[longestlurkerever]

Very conscious that this could come across very badly but I'm prepared for frank responses. I realise I'm very fortunate. Dh and I both have good jobs and are able to afford a house and all our bills comfortably. I definitely do not take that for granted.

I am just trying to make some decisions that hasve financial implicationsx and I'm trying to get a feel for what kind of lifestyle is realistic on our salaries. I used to feel quite well off really, but both our pay has been frozen for years now (public sector) and our expenses have gone up.

We earn just under 100k between us, roughly evenly split. Our mortgage is 1500 a month (London) and childcare is about 650 per month, with extra in the holidays (but will go up to about 750 a month soon when I run out of the excess annual leave I am using at the moment). Commuting is about 200 per month. I have no savings as I just spent them on building works but would generally aim to have 5-10k.

My instinct is I can afford to upgrade the car to a slightly newer and greener but not fancy one - like a ford focus 3 years old, but not a brand new one, that i can afford one European plus one UK holiday a year, but not skiing or long haul, that I can afford 2 hours cleaning a week but not a nanny, that I can afford music and swimming lessons but not private school.

Does that sound about right or must I be frittering my money away somewhere not to have more left over? I don't feel I do, except on nice food and wine. I don't buy expensive clothes for me or the DC, for example, and generally favour second hand. Most people I went to uni with seem to afford these things easily and have bigger mortgages than me, but I assume they earn a lot more in the private sector and i know they get significant bonuses every year.

I'm not moaning. I like my job and deliberately turned my back on a more lucrative career path, but I feel like I've been beating myself up a bit that my life seems more chaotic than theirs, and my house and general appearance much scruffier and am trying to work out if I could afford more help, or if actually i am comparing my life with people weith considerably more disposable income than me.

No idea if this makes any sense but all comments welcome.

Don't underestimate the mental impact of living in chaos. Not to be flippant about it, but I bet once your refurb work is done you'll feel much more in control generally and things that currently feel a bit challenging will start to slot into place. It's also easier to have a cheaper day with the kids if you feel content and comfortable in your own home. Playdates, baking, TV, crafty stuff etc = all easier to do if you aren't juggling builders, mess, dust and general upheaval. So hopefully you know the ends in sight there.

WRT money and income - I'd say with your combined income and outgoings you probably could/should feel comfortable. If you don't, particularly after the building work etc is done, then it's worth doing the budgeting tricks that PP have mentioned.

FWIW, we went to see an FA through our bank with a view to setting up a longer term savings plan. I was surprised and delighted that the FA very much took the view that we shouldn't be trying to horde every penny. Money is primarily an enabler. It doesn't make sense to lead an unnecessarily frugal life if you don't need to. But working out your financial goals with your DH is sensible. And having someone objective with us, really helped us through that process. Our joint income is less than yours but our outgoings are less too, just to give you a frame of reference.

Maybe I am getting derailed. I do feel financially comfortable with our current expenditure, hence appearing to dismiss the idea that I'm a reckless budgeter. I do feel life is chaotic and am feeling like more money would equasl a more serene existence. Perhaps it wouldn't and I need to find other ways to achieve this.

YY to the impact of refurb work. We've just had an extension built, so had the chaos and expenditure.

Extension now just about sorted and house hugely tidier and more relaxing.

Financially getting back to normal too. It was paid for with a combination of savings, personal loan and interest free finance kitchen.

We did some bits ourselves and paid as we went along so for a few months there were credit card bills of £3-5k per month (normal spending plus extra for extension bits - we generally pay for everything on credit card and then pay off at the end of every month).

This has settled down a lot now so savings are replenishing slowly, but are currently paying over £500 pm to pay the loan off and kitchen credit.

Once these are sorted in a couple of years time, this money will be available for saving again, so will be able to replenish savings at a much faster rate so it will feel like we are getting somewhere instead of just treading water.

PP who said refurb costs can run away a bit is correct - I hoped the extension would cost £35-40k tops and it ended up being closer to £50k and we had to make some decisions to cut costs such as cheaper worktops and flooring than we would have liked, but we simply didn't have the budget for tiled floors and granite worktops so settled for laminate/standard worktops.

Upside is that if we have spare money in 5-10 years time and things are looking a bit tired, it will be a relatively easy job to have them replaced.

Hello op
We don't live in London but we do have a good income for where we do live

• £70k pre tax

And yet... We seem to lurch from one disaster to the next! We bought a money pit of a house as it turns out and have had spend ££££ to make it safe and water tight If you had told me 10 years ago that we would need to budget and economise when earning £70k+ I would not have believed it. But everything is soooo expensive (and after brexit going to get more so) My car is 11 years old. We don't go out, we shop at aldi, we don't really drink and don't smoke, no lets. Kids go to state schools, they do both do one activity each - we can't afford more U.K. Holidays So...yeah. I get you.

We are in a similar situation financially to you and this makes interesting reading. We are currently paying off various debts of around £1100 pcm (car loan, bank loan and parents) which will all be paid off within the next 3 years. Our mortgage is £1000, all other bills are around £1200 including childcare. We have a cleaner, and gym membership. Food and fuel cost around £800 per month. We both pay into work place pensions and I am still paying off my student loan. So yes we take home £5,500 a month. Which is LOADS, but £4,300 is already accounted for. We feel comfortable, but not rich. we certainly couldn't afford a nanny if that makes you feel any better! Difference is that we are probably slightly better off than most of our friends, so we don't have the anxiety of 'keeping up with the Jones'. In fact quite a few of my good friends are competitively frugal (a mindset I definitely don't share) so there are less points for comparison.
Sounds like you are going through a stressful time, I can't imagine living through major DIY, would drive me crackers! Hope it all gets finished soon

people generally spend in line with what they earn. It's quite hard not to. My Dh earns around 100k and we feel comfortable but definitely not rich... His boss earns 250k and doesn't like to shop at waitrose because he feels it's too pricey, again he feels comfortable but not rich.

My husbands parents are working class and think we are extravagant (think cleaner and dog walker once a week). Whereas we think we live fairly frugally.

Basically it's all relative and depends on what you want to spend your money on.

I totally understand how you're feeling and I wondered if an au pair would work, if you had the space. They would help with child care and often work out to be cheaper, but they'll help with basic household tasks. Plus it would give you a chance to get the house is order. And if your late from work you won't need to worry. My friend loves having an au pair and they earn less than you, but are in Oxfordshire so still a pricey area.

I have been wondering that actually. Dh would need persuading but certainly once dd2 is of school nursery age it could work. Bit of a gamble though I guess? Dh thinks it's exploitation but I really don't see why. I think its 20 hours work a week in return for 100 quid and all your bills paid? Not a bad deal really whern a room in our area is probably 200 a week these days. The idea of yet ore potential food permutations does worry me though

I'd say go for it as it might lights the load, plus that person can help with the food requirement in your house, rather than add to the burden.

We have a much lower income and around £1900 left after housing costs. I think part of the problem is that our finances are all jumbled up, like yours. We are about to pay for a kitchen remodel which I have saved for out of standard household spends, also getting bits and bobs here and there e.g. the wallpaper and tiles on credit card which is paid off in full every month. Add that to a July £500 wedge on paying upfront for car insurance and we are feeling pretty skint (relatively!!) at the moment.

The things which help me are:

1. Thinking of these pre school days as temporary - I am a SAHM so no child care but we obviously will be better off when I work! These are supposed to be lean(er) years!
2. Realising some things are"a luxury - e.g. only having ice cream at the local farm park and having normal lunch when we get back - make the times we do have lunch there seem more special
3. Stop comparing! We had a large inheritance when DH lost his mum and dad so have no mortgage. You don't know people's circumstances and how much debt they might have, either
4. Try and establish what your "money goals" are. For us, we spend a high percentage of our income on insurance policies in case of poor health and death . Given DH's family situation (orphaned in his late teens) that is essential to our wellbeing. We also buy better quality meat than the standard. What is non-negotiable for you? Never mind what others think.

We earn half what you do, and have all the things you have listed. Our mortgage is 1k less and no childcare, so that's a difference of approx 20k. So our equivalent salary is 70k. Where is the other 30k going?

With tax it there isn't going to be another £30k.

hmmm I suspect your issue is as much lack of time/energy as lack of money. (Though I do agree that £100k combined with 2 dc in London will not feel "rich").

you have two working parents, commuting, two very young dc, one not sleeping, and a building project. That is going to be pretty chaotic and messy no matter how much help you buy in.

Like you we have 2 working parents and two small dc (non sleeping). However we have a higher income, no building project, a nanny and more cleaner hours, and we still feel like we live in chaos! Ok our house is generally tidy but we still have ants, broken this and that, tatty paintwork, toys and shoes everywhere and an endless to do list. No time to do exercise or buy new clothes etc so DH and I both look tatty too. So I am not convinced that more money would fix all your dissatisfactions. Who are these people you are comparing yourselves to who have got it all sorted?! Are their kids older? perfect sleepers?

One thing I didn't mention as I have shared a lot of personal info already but fuck it really, I am probably identifiable to anyone who knows me, is that our childcare bill would be higher but DM and mil cover some of it between them. This costs the equivalent of nursery in train tickets, but means they have a relationship they might not otherwise have. They don't tend to accept money directly for the train but we try and make it up in kind.

I think I agree with minipie though - it is more a lack of time and energy that I'm feeling and perhaps it is natural for this stage in my life. DD2 is at a tricky age and a pretty perfect day out 1:1 with dd1 yesterday gave me a glimpse if easier times to come.

I did notice today an advert for the exact job i left ten years ago and the salary is now 85k. It is quite stark proof that my salary has not even kept pace with inflation, so it's clear that my friends who stayed on that path will be very high earners now - I knew I was turning my back on future pay rises but not necessarily inflationary ones. I still don't regret my choice, just need to adjust my expectations a bit.

I do feel life is chaotic

Life is chaotic. London is chaotic. Small children are chaotic.

Throw in two jobs and a building project and you have chaos all over the shop. Not all two-parent-two-child families do this sort of thing: building projects and small children and two careers and so on. You do come across as if you are berating yourself for all your decisions - the salary comparison really comes across as this.

If an au pair is not the solution for your family, can you find someone who will give you an extra pair of hands for a few hours per week who is not live-in, such as a student studying childcare (or catering if you would like someone to deal with cooking and meals for you) or a child of a family friend? Or can your MIL or DM do a bit of household stuff as well as dealing with the children? They may baulk at this but if this is the thing that will help you and your DP the most, you may be able to talk with them about it all. It really does take a village.

Either of these may be enough to take a bit of the pressure off you and your DH, with less risk that you end up with an extra child to parent in the form of an au pair who is away from home for the first time and who turns out to need parenting themself. Various friends of mine had regular gigs doing after-school care or second-pair-of-hands or whatever when I was growing up and it seemed to work well all round. Maybe it is not the done thing, but I don't think it was then either tbh.

Thanks erinaceus - you talk a lot of sense. MIL is pretty helpful, actually, though does come laden with all the junk I mentioned - I will have a word with her about a stuff moratorium. DM means well but tbh adds to the chaos in some ways - I had to go on a major shoe hunt yesterday because she'd dropped one somewhere, which is typical tbh. Perhaps we lack a poise gene!

"But hardly anyone has said "I earn the same as you with similar or higher outgoings and feel loaded" which rather suggests I'm not too far wrong in my instincts that actually we have a comfortable salary but it is not high enough to live an upper middle class lifestyle in london."

I think this comes down to people never being satisfied, and always looking to those earning more than they do, really! I've felt loaded for years. Many of our friends have bigger houses, holidays abroad etc, but every day I'm grateful that we're healthy and have a lovely happy home.

Our children are teenagers now, but when they were young, I just accepted I'd buy the cheapest of everything, and we paid off our mortgage early. We still live way below our means, as it's a habit now, although I did go with the music and riding lessons for the children. But we've had many camping holidays and stacations over the years, which have been every bit as fun as expensive holidays.

When you work - your expenses increase you can't bargain hunt for gifts etc you need. Clothes and fares etc and it adds up!

I think you are making your life really hard - for example shopping if different shops for food - etc

The junk at home won't help the calm neither will the building works

I would suggest you make a budget this week - let's say £100 cash in your purse and see how far it gets you.

By doing X who here and Y shop there you end up adding extras - forgetting what you need and getting what you want

Drop the odd restaurant out - £40 a week is £160 a month !

I think you need a step back before you can go forward - start beating the stuff - do one cupboard a week -

Throw out anything not needed

Yes we all have rubbish furniture when the kids are young - just accept it - you can have better things when they're older - id rather be welcomed than sit in a show room!

Longest is one answer tyo get back on the salary track so you earn the £85k you would have been on if you had not worked less though? I always found that worked best as no one thanks you for being home but the extra money from working full time and not stopping a career is always appreciated!

I actually feel embarrassed writing this but until I went on maternity leave last year I had no idea what our joint income was. My DH works within the family business so as I was filling out the child benefit form I text my MIL to find out if my DH earns over 50k (it's made up of basic pay, bonus etc) she thought it was hilarious when she text back that the last tax year his pay was 90K so with my salary too took it to well over 100K. Like you I thought a household income of this much would be a much different life to what we have. I'm returning to work part time so now I have looked at our incomes and expenditure I'm still shocked with how much is left over (we live in the north). You always strive to do better we are 29 and 30 so still feel relatively young but extreamly lucky to have what we have but like you I keep think should I get a cleaner, should I send my ironing out, should I put my DD name down at private school would this make life easier....I don't think it would because you live to your means with money and time.

skibeauty My DH and I do not know how much each other earns, although I think I would be able to give you some sort of ballpark figure. We have no plans to change that until we have DC, which does, I think, change the situation quite dramatically.

I plan to change my job situation soon and there is some risk to this transition. A number of people said "but your DH will support you" and I was like, well, yes, if it came to it he could sell some of his business' assets to pay the mortgage, or he and I could sell our home and move back into rented accommodation, but I would hope that it would not come to that.

I guess I am trying to say that there is no need to feel embarrassed? I agree with you that one does what one can in the time that one has and with the money that one has. I am perhaps more mindful than my DH of the extend to which our situation may change when we have DC but beyond that I do not think that our separate finances are something to be ashamed of.

We got our mortgage in the year after we got married. I lost my shit with a colleague who commented that our joint mortgage was evidence that we were "properly married now". I am quite precious about our marriage though and he is no longer married to his first wife. Who knows what goes on for other people.

How could you arrange a joint mortgage without knowing what you both earn erinaceus?

He owns his own business. The accounts went to the mortgage broker. I never looked at them.