MLM bot watch - Continued discussion of the network marketing companies Forever Living, Herbal Life, Juice Plus etc as a pyramid scheme or scam

[CheekySmile]

Still continuing the discussion of the various network marketing schemes or multi-level marketing schemes (MLMs) that people we know are involved in.

If you have an MLM bot of your own then join us and share their claims and content.

Or if you are researching a company before signing up to be a network marketer please take a look at the previous threads here and here and also this thread which delves deeper into the workings of MLMs.

And don't forget our very own MN MLM Timeless Vie!
www.facebook.com/timelessvie
www.twitter.com/timelessvie
www.timelessvie.wordpress.com

Just had a look at Sally Cassidy's FBI page. On 18th Dec she says she's having a week off in 4* luxury in the Canary Islands. Then proceeds to tell everyone how much work she's doing there. The picture she has posted of this amazing 'holiday' is her computer and sunglasses. Her back garden maybe?

Was FBI a deliberate type or an autocorrect?

Either way it made me chuckle.

I didn't mean FBI!

At the risk of again being accused of posting too much information.

Might I say that all the optimism and energy MN members display on this thread, reminds me of myself when I first began to challenge 'Amway', albeit before the Internet and social media.

Initially, my main motivation was to try to get my own relatives to see reality, but I also wanted to tackle the wider problem.

All alone, I contacted everyone I could think of, to try to get the UK mainstream media interested, but without much success. At that time, I had videos of two excellent hidden camera 'MLM' documentaries made by national televison channels in France. In these, journalists posed as naive recruits and ultimately infiltrated disturbing trips to the USA where French 'MLM' adherents were filmed being subjected to full-immersion Baptism in a 'Petacostalist' Church in Arizona. These two programmes almost alone wrecked the 'Amway' spin-off known as 'GEPM,' because the boss of 'GEPM' was also filmed absolutely denying that there was any religious/cultic aspect to his company. This world class liar had actually been fimed at the Baptisms in Arizona (his brother was the pastor), and he secretly controlled a Belgian travel agency which sold 'GEPM' core-adherents the US travel packages (at grossly inflated prices)

I met with reseachers for BBCs Panorama, who had been briefly looking at 'MLM' and I gave them copies of the French videos. However, Panorama producers decided the subject wasn't for them.

Only HTV West made a somewhat limp documentary about 'Amway' in the mid 1990s which featured interviews with UK victims (some had lost up to £40 000) and with the jargon-spouting boss of 'Amway UK Ltd.' This HTV programme also told the story of Sir James Dyson's frightening brush with 'Amway' which very nearly destroyed him, but ultimately brought him millions of $ from a protracted lawsuit. Classically, HTV was quickly frightened away by threats of lawsuits and complaints of bias to broacasting standards.

MN members will find that one aspect of MLM that does immediately capture the attention of UK journalists, is the involvment of Lord Alan Sugar.

mlmtheamericandreammadenightmare.blogspot.fr/2015/11/alan-sugars-tropic-skin-care-very.html

Bettyberry, I had a look around that website too. I saw the logo of the aloe science council at the bottom and looked I to it. It says you can be assured of the highest quality aloe and it all sounds lovely and scientific and credible. Until you look at the council itself. Its board are made up of owners of aloe companies, including a certain Rex From Forever Living! There are articles you can read, not sciencey ones, but all to do with marketing. They have a bookshop where you can buy books and other materials on how to sell the crap and how to say things without getting into trouble with the law.

I'm trying to work out what the 'Islamic seal of approval' means. I understand the Halal bit and there is a logo for that but what is this seal of approval? Googling it just brings up Forever living. I can't believe that an Islamic institution has examined the products and ethics of the company and decided that it is ethical and in accordance with Islam. Because that is what is being implied.

Eyes, are some of the people at the 'top' of these organisations actually on a salary?

Toobusytowee - 'MLM' is actually the subject of various rulings by Muslim scholars and clerics. It has even been banned in some Muslim States.

www.google.fr/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=mlm%20islamic%20perspective

Even then, some Muslim Scholars still imagine that not all 'MLM' companies are frauds.

Ironically, the coordinated devious techniques used in 'MLM' cults to keep the victims buying the wampum, can be compared to those used in traditional religions to govern food consumption. Essentially, the same techniques can also be found in aversion therapy

In cults, everything in life becomes either 'negative' or 'positive', but particularly, the wampum products. The most gung-ho 'MLM' fanatics would no more buy and consume 'negative' products, than a devout Jew or Muslim would buy and consume a bacon sandwich. 'MLM' fanatics are programmed to believe that buying, and consuming, 'negative' products will threaten their 'dream and goals of financial freedom,' in the same way that devout religious believers feel obliged to buy, and consume, only authorised foods to achieve 'paradise.'

'MLM' adherents also risk being ridiculed, and/or excluded, by their group, if they are caught with 'negative' products.

This aspect of 'MLM' is far more obvious in groups like 'Organo Gold.' These have used grossly-overpriced coffee, and coffee products, as the 'positive' wampum.

In other words, even though you can buy coffee anywhere for a fraction of the price, 'MLM' adherents will illogically continue to pay fortunes for it, because they see this as a means of achieving their 'goal of financial freedom' (salvation in a future Utopia).

darceybussell The CEO of 'Herbalife,' Michael Johnson, was once the highest paid executive in the USA. He was on $80 millions per annum.

Ironically, Johnson was head-hunted from the Disney Corp. In other words, he started off selling innocent fairy stories tailored for kids, and then moved on to peddle a pernicious fairy story tailored for adults.

Johnson is now in an impossible situation, because his massive ego will never allow him to face the truth.

Sorry I meant distributors at the top claiming they are making money from 'the business', are some of them salaried?

I think the lowest point for me in forever was when I attended my last business presentation.
A couple in forever brought along a blind girl as a potential recruit.
I just thought in the real world you wouldn't recommend a blind person into a business that requires going to meetings, trainings, success days etc.
She would have needed a lot of extra support and I don't think she would have got it.
I knew when recruiting it was for my gain only. Not because I wanted to help someone become successful.
The same applied to them.
It was purely for the minimum one a month recruit.
I was happy to recruit someone who I thought wouldn't be very successful but would also be capable of just moving on from it.
I was simply following the path of greed.
I may be completely wrong, she may have done well.
It just didn't seem right.
I had become a bit of a c* in forever but even then I knew it seemed wrong.

darceybussell - Shills who occupy the highest levels in the 'MLM' hierarchies do receive payments from the 'MLM' front-companies depending on how many recruits they can find and maintain in their own groups. These payments, however, don't represent a net profit, because the shills have to pay all their operational expenses and also keep up the appearance that they are fabulously wealthy. Most shills usually are just about breaking even in the first part of the fraud, but eventually they can make money from participating in the allied advance fee frauds.

This is a parallel 'business' which only an insignificant percentage of 'MLM' bosses, and under-bosses, understand and control. When challenged 'MLM' bosses steadfastly pretend that no profits are made from the sale of publications, recordings, tickets to meetings, leads, etc; and that, anyway, the purchase of such materials is entirely optional.

darceybussell- Even though 'MLM' adherents have been arbitrarily defined in their take-it-or-leave-it annual contracts as 'Independent Business Owners,' and 'Distributors,' in the eyes of the law, they are considered to be non-salaried commission agents. However, even this is technical description is false and misleading

Thus, whatever money any 'MLM' adherent has received from their 'MLM' front company, it has appeared to be 'commission payments.'

In reality, since the overwhelming majority of all money flowing into 'MLM' rackets has only ever come from the constantly-churning adherents themselves (based on their false expectation of future reward), so-called 'commission payments' are merely dissimulated net-loss returns paid to ill-informed persons who have been duped into buying 'infinite shares' of their own finite money.

I've namechanged for this but I'm a long time user and can provide proof if you need!

I've been fascinated by MLMs and how my new mum friends tried to recruit me so I've been following these threads almost daily. I'm also a journalist (hence the name change).

I'm happy to offer advise either here or by PM. I've had over 10 years on women's magazines and national newspapers.

Like Cosmo, almost all publications will ask for an identified case study who has been victim of a MLM and will talk openly about their experiences. They have the right to talk about their experiences and feelings (to a certain degree). They will need to be photographed or provide a photo. They will also need to match the demographic of the magazine -a so a twenty-something woman for Cosmo.

Publications' lawyers will definitely worry about printing an article that is totally against MLMs. After all, as the MLMs themselves say, they are cash rich, which means they can sue. That means you might not be able to name the MLMs at all. You might get away with hinting at them - 'a company that sells health and wellness products, with a particular emphasis on aloe'. But that would depend on how risk averse or otherwise the lawyer felt.

You might be able to get away with naming them if you get what's known as a 'right of reply', which means approaching the MLM's PR department and getting them to comment on the allegations made by your case study. In extreme cases, after alerting them by asking for a right of reply, they can go to court and ask for an injunction so the article is never published.

You might also want to get an expert - perhaps a financial expert who can explain why the numbers don't stack up. (That if everyone recruits two people a month, as the plan suggests, in 24 months or so you'll run out of people in the UK).

I'm sure I'll think of more things and if you have any questions then do ask.

Views on this which is a company associated with Sally Cassidy - are these the kind of offshoot companies that spring up to add motivation to the bots?

Toobusytowee yes, I pointed the aloe council logo out on a previous thread and that it wasn't an independent body because the CEO of FL was on the board. Also, a lot of highstreet aloe products also carry that logo too so buying based on the logo is pretty daft because so many products pay to carry it.

I'm trying to put together a pic (much like FL do) a compare and contrast but with better quality alternatives that are entirely cruelty free (to appeal to my friends who are being sucked into this thing because they are being lied to and I know its a huge issue for them) are cheaper, with clear vegan/veggie labelling and nutritional info so people can make a much more informed choice around them.

It's worth remembering that all the logos. The company usually has to pay and submit products to be tested before they can get the stamp. The fact the FL CEO is on the board is just another way of making the products look legit amongst the countless aloe products on the market.

I think the 'islamic seal of approval' means its free of pork/pork products, alcohol and other substances not permitted under islamic law.

islam.about.com/od/dietarylaw/a/halal_cert.htm - this has a few links at the bottom about halal monitoring groups.

www.ifanca.org/Pages/Certified-Products.aspx forever living isn't listed on here but I don't know how many halal/islamic approval councils there are in the USA or here. again, its not something I've really need to know but I'm curious now.

thanks exposethetruth I had a rough idea that would be the case. That the threat of a lawsuit often means articles never make it out :( (partner is a journo too) We are seeing a lot that forever living in particular really pushes out the positive stuff to hide the negative reviews via google ranking etc. Thankfully changes to google ranking seem to be shifting this meaning more of the exposure stuff is making it to the top of the list. An article would be amazing to get out because it would break through some of that.

eye I am having a lot of luck amongst my group of friends warning of the dangers of FL. Maybe I am just lucky or have a knack for explaining it. who knows but several people have rejected the contracts a mutual friend keeps pushing.

There is one lady I'm still concerned about stereotypical recruit being a new mum but on Statutory maternity pay :(

exposethetruth Thank-you for your professional advice.

In my experience, 'MLM' cultic racketeers threaten to sue mainstream publications, but seldom do. In fact, they keep well away from all persons who really know how they operate and who are prepared to speak out without fear of intimidation.

In 20 years, I've only been threatened with a non-specific lawsuit once by lawyers acting for 'MLM' racketeers, and the absurd letter I received, wasn't even signed. A few weeks later, the impressive-sounding international law firm which issued the threatening letter, had been closed.

Lawyers acting for 'Amway UK Ltd.' issued all sorts of threats to 'Time Out' in the 1990s, but News Editor, Tony Thompson, simply ignored them.

Please feel free to contact me via [email protected]

Mark your e-mail 'for the attention of David Brear.'

Yes its much harder to fool Google than it used to be. Partner is a web designer.
My website for my business is front page and all I've ever had done, is to continue to write compelling, original content and tie it in with social media which is the same, memes don't work. it has to be original to get the hits.
As the keyword rich bot stuff put up to spoof Google rankings is all so samey and deceptive, with the same stock phrases, none of it original, then it won't rank as high as the interesting stuff. Like Davids blog which always ranks highly, because it's relevant to its subject and highly compelling. Google dislikes con men. Thankfully.

Thank you David.

I think in the last few months IPSO, which replaced the PCC has certainly made our lawyers more nervous.

There are definitely ways magazines can cover the issue but mainstream titles, particular women's titles, which I'm most familiar with, aren't able to do as much campaigning as they used to.

That's why you need a case study to talk about their experiences in a compelling way, which makes readers aware of the issues.

If you had someone who met the magazine's demographic, was willing to be identified and went bankrupt after joining an MLM after a friend recruited them online then you could do the story 'I lost my house because of a Facebook post…' With a right of reply from the company and an expert explaining the figures you'd have a good basis.

Penny that is so awful! Evil bloody con artists!!

Exposethetruth - do they never accept those blurred out photos with the names changed to protect the person's identity? Do they always need to come forward with a photo?

Darceybussell, personally I probably only do five or so stories a year that are anonymous and usually that's for a legal reason like they are a victim of a sexual assault. In these cases the attacker is still identified.

Anonymous stories are hard for readers to believe so, everywhere I've worked the preference is always for stories where the case study is identified. It also helps the reader relate to the story and therefore has more impact (She looks like me and yet she fell victim to a MLM so it could happen to me too).

bettyberry Talking new recruits out of 'MLMs' generally just requires common-sense and good humour, because in the end, what they offer is so obviously too good to be true. That said, I was once approached by some medical students in the USA who claimed that they'd succeeded in rescuing one of their friends from 'ACN ' by beating him up. At first, I thought they were just having a joke, but they were quite serious. Not that I'm suggesting that anyone should try this violent approach.

Sometimes the conversion to an 'MLM' cult can be very rapid and almost impossible to reverse. Sadly there are some vulnerable people who will continue to justify their previous behaviour in defence of their ego, no matter what evidence, or rational argument, they are presented with.

Thanks for the information Exposethetruth. I was thinking a magazine might be fearful of legal issues. I was hoping if the story was completely factual and true and backed up with solid figures and comments from experts, the MLMs wouldn't be able to complain. I was thinking that FL or whichever company is mentioned should have a right of reply. Could the article then reply to that too or do they have to have the last word?

I was wondering if Private Eye might investigate and write about it? They aren't afraid of lawyers. Might that then open up the way for other publications to follow?

exposethetruth - There are one or two recovering ex-'MLM' adherents participating in these MN forums, but I'm sure there are lots more who are following the discussion without comment.

Currently, I'm in contact with a (potentially major) 'FLP' whistleblower from the UK, but he doesn't exactly fit the demographic for a women's magazine. I'm hoping to post his full story and identity very soon.

One woman whom I know in the UK, is an indirect victim who has been trying to expose 'FLP.' She has witnessed her (university educated) ex-husband waste 20 years of his life and £ hundreds of thousands, pursuing the 'dream.' I have previously given her contact details to several UK journalists, but they never got in touch with her. I don't know if she has ever posted any comments on MN.

After many disappointments, I almost given up trying to put journalists in contact with 'MLM' victims.

In general, few ex-'MLM' adherents are capable of explaining what they were involved in (using accurate terms)? Whilst journalists don't ask 'MLM' victims the right questions, because they too haven't fully-understood how blame-the-victim 'MLM' cultic racketeering functions.

Despite the detailed published-warnings of experienced observers like myself and Robert FitzPatrick, few journalists who have met with 'MLM' adherents, and ex-adherents, have realized that they are engaging with persons who have been infected with a form of highly-contageous virus designed to infect vulnerable minds and destroy all capacity to think critically.

The full, and frank, explanation of cultism, is a threat to how almost everyone sees him/herself.

There lies the problem, I would tell my side of things, but I'm not willing for people to know who I am or what I look like. (I am even wary about what I say on here just in case someone can work out who I am)

I'm educated and wouldn't say I'm stupid but got in a small amount of debt on my credit card due to buying products as I wasn't always recruiting so couldn't always get my 4cc's but I'm just thankful, I came to my senses before it got a lot worse and also very thankful I have a very understanding partner. I know of others who have a lot more on their credit card and it's upsetting.