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MLM bot watch - Continued discussion of the network marketing companies Forever Living, Herbal Life, Juice Plus etc as a pyramid scheme or scam

999 replies

CheekySmile · 22/12/2015 19:58

Still continuing the discussion of the various network marketing schemes or multi-level marketing schemes (MLMs) that people we know are involved in.

If you have an MLM bot of your own then join us and share their claims and content.

Or if you are researching a company before signing up to be a network marketer please take a look at the previous threads here and here and also this thread which delves deeper into the workings of MLMs.

And don't forget our very own MN MLM Timeless Vie!
www.facebook.com/timelessvie
www.twitter.com/timelessvie
www.timelessvie.wordpress.com

OP posts:
Thread gallery
78
acatcalledjohn · 05/01/2016 12:33

I have just emailed Watchdog and Panorama, linking to our threads.

acatcalledjohn · 05/01/2016 12:35

eye, as much as I agree with you, I think resource (or lack thereof) is why these MLMs keep going. The return for HMRC would be negligible, sadly.

CheekySmile · 05/01/2016 12:47

I've just had the weekly FB report for the TV FB page and wow! Last week we had 955 page visits (up from 78 the week before) and our total reach was 5.18K (586 the previous week). I know the week before was Christmas but last week's reach is impressive!

Keep up the comments and likes, as it means that our reach gets further and further. We've had over 100 new likers in the last week, huge!

OP posts:
sminkypink · 05/01/2016 12:54

There are many, many, dead FLP ltd company reports if you search online, showing a whole load of nothing in their filed company reports. Its not easy to find them as they often have similar names. ''Aloe this'' or ''Forever that''. Most of them haven't turned over even one single pound.

Woodhill · 05/01/2016 13:02

is there a FB page. Interested in this thread.

Woodhill · 05/01/2016 13:03

got it:)

fastdaytears · 05/01/2016 13:08

This reply has been deleted

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Frisk · 05/01/2016 13:11

A cat,
How about Women's Hour, You and Yours, More or Less?
Someone suggested Ben Goldacre.

There must be journalists on mn. Nancy66 worked for the mail but haven't seen her around for ages.

Would it be worth starting a thread shouting out for a journalist to advise if not to write?

Frisk · 05/01/2016 13:12

Martyn's Lewis?
Is he on Twitter?

I'd love to know his reaction to these threads.

Eyespying · 05/01/2016 13:31

sminkypink - Back in the 1990s, I witnessed my own brother (a deeply dissatisfied thirty-something teacher) pretending to be making piles of money out of 'Amway.' In reality, he'd rented out his own one-up one-down, back street, terrace house and moved into my mother's large home which was stuffed full of paintings and antiques. This property was actually bought by my late father (an architect and art collector) in the late 1950s, using £2000 that he'd earned from the sale of a rare book which he'd bought for peanuts in a junk shop in Leeds.

The same book today is worth in excess of half a million pounds, but the property, only about £400 000. Eventually, my brother sold this property, but I have no idea how much cash he lost to the 'Amway' racketeers.

Prior to this, my brother also acquired, and sold, another even larger house which my mother had inherited from my father's aunt. In this way, my brother's total 'Amway' losses were easily hidden.

I was excluded from my own family and systematically branded a 'jealous anti-capatalist who refused to work, and who was trying to steal the dreams of millions of Amway business owners, ' by the group's paranoid controlling fairy story, simply for refusing to join 'Amway' and for filing complaints with the UK authorities.

Even with all these stolen advantages, my brother was so unconvincing in the role of big-hitting 'MLM' shill, that he never rose above the rank of 'Gold Producer' in the 'Amway' hierarchy. This required him to recruit, and maintain for six months, his own group of about 50 obedient adherents (all handing over the required ammount of cash each month in exchange for the unsaleable wampum). However, all these constantly-churning recruits were also counted in the personal groups of my brother's 'Upline,' and in those of his 'Upline's' 'Upline,' etc.

Had my brother maintained the same number of obedient adherents for 12 months, he would have risen to the key-rank of 'Direct Distributor,' but each year on average more than 50% of 'Amway' adherents always fail to renew their contracts.

At this time, I calculated that in order for any 'Amway' adherent to rise to the first 'total financial freedom' level of 'Diamond Distributor,' a group comprising approximately 10 000 obedient, but constantly-churning, adherents had to be recruited and maintained for 12 months. Thus, for each one of these 10 000 would-be millionaires to achieve 'Diamond Distributor' each one would also have to recruit and maintain 10 000 further constantly-churning, obedient adherents, etc. ad infinitum.

The same crackpot calculations apply to all 'MLM' cults.

When 'Amway' was finally investigated by the UK government, the organisation had dwindled to around 20 thousands constantly-churning adherents, and there was only couple occupying a higher level of 'Diamond Distributorship' in the UK.

However, since 'Amway' came to the UK in 1973, at least one millions indviduals had been churned through it.

Eyespying · 05/01/2016 14:01

acatcalledjohn

'as much as I agree with you, I think resource (or lack thereof) is why these MLMs keep going. The return for HMRC would be negligible, sadly.'

Unfortunately, you couldn't be more wrong in this analysis; for between 1973 and 2006, it has been estimated that around one billion dollars was unlawfully removed from the UK (without any payment of tax) via the related advance fee frauds universally operating in all the 'Amway Networks.' This mountain of money derived largely in cash from the sale of endless publications, recordings, tickets to meetings, etc., on the pretext that 'these optional materials contained the secrets of success.'

The initial recipients of the 'Amway UK ' advance fee frauds were UK 'Diamond Distributors,' like Jerry Scriven and Pat Gregory, but they, and their criminal associates, shipped the lion's share of the cash to 'Amway Diamonds' in the USA, like Dexter Yager.

When the UK investigation was launched, Gregory and Scriven naturally were excommunicated from 'Amway,' and their own UK front companies voluntarily closed, to isolate the big 'Amway bosses in the USA from liability.

During the same period (1973-2006) 'Amway UK Ltd.,' never once declared a trading profit or paid corporation tax. In fact, the company declared net trading losses of approximately $20 millions in the 8 years immediately prior to the UK government investigation. It was kept afloat with mysterious cash injections from a labyrinth of companies registered in Europe and Asia.

To make the truth even more unacceptable to the UK authorities, VAT was voluntarily paid by 'Amway UK Ltd.' to the UK government on all internal transactions between itself and it's constantly churning contractees, making it appear that these losing investment payments were were 'retail sales.'

In other words, the UK government not only failed to detect the 'Amway' fraud, but was actually paid a significant share of it.

This is a putrid can of worms that no one wants to open.

Eyespying · 05/01/2016 14:22

acatcalledjohn - Wealthy criminogenic cultic groups like 'Amway' have survived by maintaining their monopolies of information and, thus, preventing the vast majority of their victims from facing reality and complaining.

At one tme, I almost succeeded in convincing my elderly mother that 'Amway' is a cult and a fraud, but my brother and his 'Amway' handlers were then able to produce two apparently 'independent cult experts' to shut down her critical faculties again. In the end, my mother preferred to believe that 'I was crazy,' rather than face the reality that my brother was a deluded cult adherent, and I never saw her for the last 7 years of her life.

I actually posted this comment earlier today on another MN thread. It partly explains exactly how the 'Amway' bosses kept control over my mother's mind and cash, despite my best efforts.

----------------

There has only ever been one acceptable series of articles published about 'MLM' in a UK mainstream magazine, and that was more than 20 years ago.

skepdic.com/timeout.html

The author of these articles, 'Time Out' News Editor, 'Tony Thompson,' had had a painful personal experience with a loved-one who fell for the 'Amway' fairy story.

One unintended effect that these articles had, was to give the bosses of 'Amway' the opportunity to co-opt the self-styled British 'cult specialist,' Graham Baldwin as an 'adviser.' Unfortunately, Tony Thompson's article warned them that potential victims were approaching Mr. Baldwin.

Mr. Baldwin (whom I've met) is a absurd (unqualified) charlatan who has preyed on vulnerable cult victims whom he refers to as 'clients .' He tells everyone (particularly journalists) that he was once a 'University Chaplain' (a meaningless title) as well as a 'member of British Army (or sometimes, Military) Intelligence.' This latter claim, is a puerile, narcissistic lie.

Once on the payroll, Baldwin then co-opted another self-styled British 'cult specialist,' Ian Howarth as another adviser to 'Amway UK Ltd.'.

For more than 10 years, all British victims and relatives who contacted Messrs. Baldwin and Howarth about 'Amway,' were actually speaking to paid agents of the cult. It's difficult to know how many potential 'Amway' whistleblowers were silenced by this subversive tactic.

Mr. Baldwin is now apparently gravely ill and no longer active, but Mr Howarth still runs his own legally-registered charity, 'The Cult Information Centre.' I don't think he remains on the 'Amway' payroll, but he does remain subject to his 'Amway' employment contract. In other words, he will never tell the truth.

bunchedpantiesagain · 05/01/2016 15:19

I know this isn't a lighthearted topic but I'm missing the lighthearted tone of this thread. I think the bot watch humour highlighting the commonality of these lies across all bots is why we've attracted a lot more people here and to the Timelessvie pages.

Sorry Eye as don't want to sound like that's a dig. You do have a lot of useful info to impart, maybe just a bit too much info per post Thanks

stopfaffing · 05/01/2016 15:54

I remember why it was decided to split the original thread and I subscribe to both because I can see why it was necessary.

Eye has shown us the bigger picture about the insidious nature of MLMs introducing the alarming concept that they are (a) linked to religious cults and (b) organised crime and has shown us excellent links to other evidence of MLMs throughout the world. I find it very interesting but also love reading the day to day goings-on with fl-bots. Long may both threads continue!

Quinoa20 · 05/01/2016 15:54

My bots are quiet today :( so I flipped through some old posts - this made me laugh---zero likes!!

MLM bot watch - Continued discussion of the network marketing companies Forever Living, Herbal Life, Juice Plus etc as a pyramid scheme or scam
Quinoa20 · 05/01/2016 15:59

Haha!!! A juice plus bot has resurrected an old thread in AIBU

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/2411192-This-isnt-OK-is-it-Forever-Living-on-FB?pg=5

Claregeorgina1 · 05/01/2016 16:19

My friend has been brainwashed by N.Shingles . I've tried to get her to read some links but she shut me down straight away ....no negativity allowed apparently !

Eyespying · 05/01/2016 16:32

stopfaffing - Thanks - shades of deja vu here - although I had been attempting to leave this 'Bot Watch' thread alone until my name was suddenly mentioned.

Although I can see why certain MN members want to maintain the more lighthearted tone, they should always bear in mind that the apparent aburdity of cults has often been one of their best protections.

Some very talented observers have been taking the piss out of the uniformity 'MLM' robots for years in the USA, but their hilarious efforts have had no significant effect (other than perhaps trivialising the danger).

I've extended this invitation before to MN members, but anyone wishing to contact me directly, can do do via [email protected]

sminkypink · 05/01/2016 16:49

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sminkypink · 05/01/2016 16:51

Claregeorgina1 send your friend this photo, its the rental ad for Shingles barn.

MLM bot watch - Continued discussion of the network marketing companies Forever Living, Herbal Life, Juice Plus etc as a pyramid scheme or scam
clarinsgirl · 05/01/2016 16:53

My NuYouBot might be better investing in some English tuition.

MLM bot watch - Continued discussion of the network marketing companies Forever Living, Herbal Life, Juice Plus etc as a pyramid scheme or scam
clarinsgirl · 05/01/2016 16:54

16 # and no likes

lazycoo · 05/01/2016 17:04

If you think about it, peer pressure is often deployed to ensnare people in MLMs. If we can start to turn the tide on social media and mumsnet, which are some of the new peer groups, then maybe peer pressure will put people off... it's fighting them on their own patch.

Your approach is undoubtedly useful, but if people don't read your posts because they're too lengthy, then, as far as they're concerned, you might as well have not bothered. stopfaffing has the right of it, there's room for both approaches.

sminkypink · 05/01/2016 17:08

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sminkypink · 05/01/2016 17:10

I also think that the right place to fight the battle and expose it is the same place that the lies are spread. Facebook. And in a language that people understand. I appreciate the analysis, I really do but we must reach people where the lies are.

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