MLM bot watch - Discussion of the network marketing companies Forever Living, Herbal Life, Juice Plus etc as a pyramid scheme or scam

[CheekySmile]

Continuing the discussion of the various network marketing schemes or multi-level marketing schemes (MLMs) that people we know are involved in.

If you have a bot of your own then join us and share what they are saying!

Or if you are researching a company before signing up to be a network marketer please take a look at the previous bot watch thread and also this thread which delves deeper into the workings of MLMs.

And don't forget our very own MN MLM Timeless Vie!
www.facebook.com/timelessvie
www.twitter.com/timelessvie

Is it a bit like on Dragon's Den when they have sold £100 worth of products and value their business at a million pounds?

Exactly that!

Intangible assets spring to mind again.

"But it's my idea, and my idea is awesome!"

i agree john. and she seems to have no stock or have made no profit. the whole thing smells.

Oooh oooh Oooh I just googled 'forever living pyramid' and on the FIRST PAGE of results is a collection of MN threads including this one

Have a read of this.....
It ticks all the cliche "buzz words" boxes :)
www.facebook.com/successinspired/?fref=ts

I #loveit

I tried not responding to my friend who was inviting me to join the 36 book scam on fb. But crumbled.

I replied with a basic reason for why it just doesn't work, how many people she'd have had to have signed up just for her to get the books, never mind all the friends she has 'promised' it to. And told her that she could end up with some really pissed off friends who signed up not realising and took her promise seriously.

She replied that it was their risk to take.

Then deleted my reply and her reply back to me.

She's a well educated and (I thought) sensible and trustworthy person.
Alas, no.

I would like to draw your attention to the note with the red marker.

Oh, and I quickly put the numbers in an Excel spreadsheet to compare them easily, even if it is not clear exactly which companies are represented by these figures.

If NH's intangible assets exceed her net worth (which they do, by about £60k), surely that means her entire net worth is intangible? Also her liabilities exceed cash in the bank plus tangible assets (I think, if I've done the right sums)

Given that intangible assets can't be realised for cash, doesn't that mean she's effectively insolvent?

Just got back from a sneaky drink with a friend in Covent Garden. My Shrodingers MLM bot has just posted two things, a photo of a Maldives resort with, 'one day you'll be able to ask me how I live like I do and I'll say I tried to show you'. Then the next photo is a flippin training evening - 9.30pm on a Tuesday night and she's been in a hellhole hotel conference centre all weekend. Do I want your life? Er no thanks, you can keep it. I left corporate hell to get away from Alan Partridge style hotels and conference centres and she seems to spend her entire life in them (or driving to them).

I must have got that wrong - need to find someone who understands these things!

Intangible assets. I am starting to get a slight understanding. Bear with me here...

The example is a payment for something which cannot be quantified, over a period of time which can be quantified. E.g.: You patent the stabilisation of Aloe shite for 5 years for £300,000. You paid this money but you have nothing to show for it, other than a piece of paper telling you that you own this patent. It doesn't guarantee an income and thus is an asset, but intangible.

Where something tangible depreciates in value (your car is worth 10k new, but after a year it's only worth 8k, the year after 7k, etc), an intangible asset is amortised (mort: killed). So every year you reduce this asset by an amount until you are back to zero.

In NH's case, she has done something intangible to the value of £300,000, over a period of 5 years I'd love to know what that is. So in her 2014 figures, the intangible asset has in effect depreciated in value, and she can only work out her profit against the remaining value of this asset. As such, the value of this asset is now calculated at 4/5ths of £300k, or £240k. In her 2015 figures this will show as £180k, 2016 will be £120k etc. So effectively her assets are growing smaller, unless she manages to increase her other assets. So she HAS to sell lots of AV shite (or books), reduce her own borrowing, but buy lots of stock as this counts as a tangible asset (even though she'd have to use her cash assets to do so).

Does this help? My brain really hurts now.

'growing smaller'? I am clearly far too tired to think of a word as simple as 'declining'. Must be because someone at work used this 'growing smaller' term in a presentation today and I just sat there and giggled internally at their stupidity. Karma...

Tonight I witnessed 5 mins of MLM hard sell explanation (JP) I think to two poor suckers in a hotel bar. Young lad in a suit jabbering on about how quickly you can become a manager and you're your own boss so no corporate rules to hold you back from your dreams. These two young lads listening had eyes like saucers. I was about to lean over and cough BULLSHIT really loudly but my friend appeared from the lift and I had to jump up so she didn't miss me.

I feel bad now. I could have saved them.

No corporate rules? It's worse than a corporation, far, far, worse. At least when you worked for a corporation, you had a decent wage!

My bot had an online "party" tonight. I don't think she managed to sell much, only 19 out of 450 people invited said they were going.

I bet that the intangible assets mentioned above are the people below her in the pyramid which she has somehow quantified.

givemecheese what's interesting about the fb link to Clarie's "success inspried" page is she stopped mentioning fl back in June and only promotes her new mentoring business.

There is a post going back to 2oth May where she congratulates someone called Sally (with pic) for already creating her own downline "thriving team" after only four weeks. I can see no mention of Sally since then, she has not even liked that post or any others. Interesting. When I have a moment, I will have another search (getting ready for work now .

Forgot to mention, I think Claire has realised that any success with this fl business means concentrating on the mentoring of her downlines (hence her setting up her Success Inspired company) and making money from training events and training products rather than directly selling fl stuff.

The fact that many of her downlines will not succeed long term is irrelevant because she is attracting interest from people desperate to succeed all the time.

Hello!

So I caved and bought some aloe deodorant off a friend/bot. I ducked the hard sell recruitment shit and retreated with my six and half quid deodorant.

My armpits smell like a hamsters cage and my bras like the newspaper that lines it.

Ugh.

I smell less wearing nothing.

A lovely friend has recently started with Usborne Books. She's doing quite well and is managing not to spam constantly or recruit anyone within a 5 mile radius. She's got a fb page and has done one online sale but didn't invite everyone on her list. I've even ordered some books.

I, on the other hand, keep getting automatically added to groups where fl bots show off their shite kn cellophane and a ribbon and call it a Christmas gift.

I've bought from usborne books before. They had an advent calendar offer where you got 24 wrapped books and I opened one with my child each night.

Was thinking about NH. She bought a Ferrari earlier on in the year could that cost £300k?

I'm still feeling confused about the 'smoke and mirrors' that seem to go on. I honestly believed these people were earning 6 figure salaries. I really was sucked into it all and thought that could be me if I worked hard. I'm just glad there was always that tiny doubt at the back of my head or I could be far worse off now.

A Ferrari would be a tangible asset as it actual exists as a real thing, if that makes sense.

And to be fair she probably leased it, or at most bought a used one (you can pick one up for £40k if you shop around) I doubt she bought a brand new one...

Lol at growing smaller, that sounds like marketing speak

have got as far as the accounts, so haven't read any messages since then. The intangible assets will probably be goodwill transferred over from being a sole trader (so I value my sole trader business at say £500k, and "sell" that to my new limited company, no checks as to whether that is a realistic value or not, depends on my accountant, some will be more accepting than others. Or I may be doing my accounts myself). Bigger tax bill for me personally, but then my limited company has more assets.

Similarly, if i pay my suppliers at the very last minute (or indeed wait till the final demand rolls in then switch suppliers, it'll take the previous ones a while to move to court action, at which point I pay them off), my cash balance is bigger (which looks better to the masses). I'm then making bigger profits, and although there's more tax to pay, if I'm in the business of faking it till I make it, appearances are all. The benefits I get from looking successful will outweigh the tax due.

Another v interesting thing is that there is no stock on hand at the year end. Why not, surely FL is in the business of selling aloe shite? Why no aloe shite in stock .

Oh, also, the trade debtors figure, no way of knowing if any/all of that money will actually appear. I could issue an invoice on the last day of my financial year to Mumsnet for £1k for consultancy fees. I might never actually send that to Mumsnet (or if I did, expect it to be paid), but so long as I was happy to take the tax hit in the short term, I might have totally made up how much money I was owed in invoices. HMRC don't care (as they get the tax), only people to be interested would be my shareholders and anyone I actually owed money to.

stopfaffing "I think Claire has realised that any success with this fl business means concentrating on the mentoring of her downlines (hence her setting up her Success Inspired company) and making money from training events and training products rather than directly selling fl stuff."

Indeed. All MLMs from Amway on stress that "The System" (Amway, books, tapes and functions) is essential. That's where the upline make their real money. It often ends in lawsuits as the various highpins argue over these spoils with each other and with the company itself. (I'd still like to see the breakdown of the O2 success events!)