Puddytats - A summary of the last 18 months of hell (this will be long and i hope will answer akll questions)

[puddytats]

Dear all

I have decided to start a new thread on this and run thro everything from the beginning, if you get to the end then thankyou for reading and well done. If you have any questions please ask, i will answer as fully as I am able considering i do not, and will never know the full facts.

Here goes...

On the 12 May 2005 DD was born. On the 13th June DH returned to work after paternity leave. He got to work as usual at 9.30ish and was met in the lobby by head of HR and immediatly taken into the boardroom. He was told that discrepancies had appearded on a firm he was working on but this was not a disiplinary, simply a meeting to establish facts. DH was shocked and stunned. He was asked variuos questions including whether he knew what was going on. He said he had no idea. He was then suspended on full pay while further investigations took place. He returned home and we tried to piece together what had happened.
Records at work show that a ficticious member was made up on a real client and that DH did work on this client, including the issuing of a cheque. His computer initials were over everything. Work decided that DH was at fault at dismissed his.
As this was taking place the police also knocked on our door. DH was arrested and all paperwork relating to financial records were taken away - including all the work we had done ourselves. It transpired that 3 cheques 'passed' thrioough our bank account - one in joint bank and 2 in dh sole account. DH was adviced to no comment throughout the interview, which he did. Because of this and because one of the cheques was in joint account the police arrested me.
Names on the cheques had been changed after they were signed by the partners at DH work, we know this because there are photocopiers of the cheques before signiture and from the bank after cashing. They had been changed to either our current surname or my maiden name. The police handwriting expert said it was likely to be DH handwriting. A certified copy of our marriage certificate was also provided with the one in my maiden name.
A little of the money was moved round our variuos accounts and the rest was taken out one way or another. It would seem that everything other than the initial paying in and one cheque withdrawel was done over the internet. That money as yet has not been traced.
DH and i were cept on police bail for over a year while they completed their investigations. During this time we were powerless to do anything, I attempted to committ suicide due to the stress and we have reached lows you can not imagine.
After a hellish year i was released without charge. DH was charged on 10 counts. 3 of obtaining property by deception, 3 of fraud (can't remember exact terminology) and 1 of forgery (a letter apparently)
We have already paid over £20,000 in legal fees and if we had decided to fight the case would be looking at at leat £100,000 more including solicitors, Queens counsel, computer experts, forensic accountants, private investigators etc. At the moment DH mother in paying for us to survive - although i have now got a job, and DH father in paying legal fees. We cannot live off others forever.
If we fight it we could lose everything. We have 2 children and a need to keep a roof over their heads, they have been through so much in their very young lives that keeping a familiar home is vitsl to their stability.
We could fight it to the bitter end and have the full support of friends and family who believe us and know we have been set up. Our morals say fight but we have learnt over the past year that justice is not fair, about who is guilty or innocent but who can prove what and who can afford to prove what.
We do not want the children to remember daddy being away, we do not want to be apart at all so are trying to limit damage. We know dh is innocent and now have to ignore justice and look to what affect a lengthy trail could have on the family, the stress, tension cost etc has had to be weighed up against what could be gained or lost. We will win in the end because we have eachother.

If you have got this far then well done and thankyou

They need to prove he did it. It looks like they have a lot of evidence.

I meant to write it costs nothing to plead not guilty. Are you sure he gets a lesser sentence if he admits the guilt than if he doesn't? Surely that's the only relevant reason to plead guilty. Pleading not guilty doesn't have to involve you in any more money being spent on lawyers. You might not then have the best case/defence but they still have to prove the case against him.

If you plead guilty when you're innocent is that perjury and can you go to prison for it?

The theory is that they have prove guilt. The truth is we have to prove innocence. We have to prove that he did not do it.
I have learnt over the last 18 months that justice and truth means nothing.
Yes he is committing perjury. We feel we have no choice.
Pleading guilty does mean more money as we need the expertise to prove he did not do it.

Should read pleading not guilty!!

Hi , I think I've posted on you other thread before , I think you have obviously made up your minds but please if you are taking the time to reply to all these questions which must be taking its toll , why don't you try and give it a go like Xenia says and try and draft some letters and get some support , you may find someone to help with proving your husbands innocence. Surely its worth a try, I strongly belive in him pleading not guilty also , as I may have told you before my daughter's father was faulsly accused of blackmail, threats to kill, and other allegations by another party and he was in the Old Bailey three times and was put on remand in Wormwood Scrubs which was a terrible place for almost a year and the case was dismissed at the 11th hour, he was 100% pleading not guilty although it looked likely he would be found guilty and faced 15 years +, it is very hard on the outside for the relatives and dealing with the stupid systems of visiting which really take its toll. Please, give it a go, what about if he pleads not guilty and then gets a sentence and then goes through the appeal system, try and get the strength together, sorry what do your parents and his parents think??

I think you mentioned that your mil would rather sell her house than you lose yours. Wouldn't it not make sense for her to consider that now (or consider remortgaging it) to pay for an expert defence?

does pleading not guilty help in any future appeals should any appeals take place or new evidence come to light?
or does it make no difference

Not sure. A lot of recent miscarriage of justice cases were from "confessions" pressed out of defendents from the police. Not sure if = same as actually pleading guilty in court though

I just cannot imagien any circs that if I had that kind of belief in my ds or dh that I would not give up everything for to prove it
I knwo that sounds judgemental and I know I'm not in that situation, so it's easy for me to say.
Sometimes you wish you had a magic wand huh.

I take my hat off to you and your dh Puddytats, I wouldn't be able let DH plead guilty. I would ahve to know what, where, why and all the other things.

I really have no idea how the courts work but could your dh point out that he's aware he's commitinf perjury but he has no chioce due to costand it's all damage limitation on the family?
Or would that get him in further trouble?

yes Piffle i agree , I continued to gather my own evidence when my partner was accused as I mentioned below and from that a relative of the person or people that made accusations came forward and gave new evidence against their own family member, of course there is also the jury , they too may feel that her husband is telling the truth .
This is just terrible ,because of course for prison you need to be mentally and phisically strong because of all the abuse and crap that goes on in there, they are just awful places , I have horrible memory's of queing in the freezing cold and rain with my daughter to be let in on visits,and treated like crap by the staff, if there is any slim glimmer of hope of not putting yourself through that then please, please take it. Does your husband have any friends that could help, my partners friends were fantastic and visited him every week to keep his spirits up?

Puddytats**I spoke to this lady , I found on this website and briefly explained what you had advised us, she says she may know some colleagues who are sprecialised in the area of fraud and tracing funds through bank accounts, she was very nice she says they work through the Legal Services Commission and may help , she is happy to speak to them on your behalf and she is happy for you to call her next week , she said if this was not many, many transactions it may not prove as costly as you think and sometimes they may fund certain cases. She too said by pleading guilty you can then get a lesser sentence but end of losing in civil proceeding.

I realise you may think I am overstepping into your private life but maybe its work a call to her she was really nice lady and said she would be interested to help if you give her time over the weekend she will make some calls and then you can call her next week,

Jeannette Hume BSc BEng FCA ATII

Jeannette is a fellow of the Institue of Chartered Accountants in England and Wales and a member of the Chartered Institue of Taxation. She has been involved in accounting, audit, taxation, advising family businesses and specialises in forensic accounting, examining and reporting on financial aspects of disputes of various kinds. She has provided joint and single expert witness advice on various litigation cases as mentioned above.

For more details, or to discuss our forensic accounting service, please call 01223 728263 or email [email protected]

Peters Elworthy and Moore, in conjunction with NIFA, send out a quarterly newletter on current forensic accounting topics. If you would like to be placed on the mailing list, please email [email protected]

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I spoke to my DH last night Puddytats (he is an accountant) and when I commented about the police not taking your DH's computer he said that they probably didn't ahve to - if it is a network (most likely) they can check it remotely. He reckons that the IT dept in his company knows when he presses a key on the computer.

Obv they all have passwords so presumably the police feel that everything was done under your DH's password. Did anyone else know it?

I remember following the Sally Clark case (convicted and then acquitted of killing her babies). They didn't have the right evidnce at the first trial then a lot of people came forward and helped her free of charge.
I just can't see why not plead not guilty even if you don't feel you've the evidence, even if the case isn't properly put together to defend it. Surely there's a good chance juries being as emotional and strange as they can be wouldn't just not convict. You never know.

He can change his mind I think right up to the
day.

if he is going to be found guilty is there any advantage if you sell up and move abroad and take the money out of the UK jurisdiction so no one can come after it as another idea?

xenia - if they even thoght about doing that it would make them look as guilty as hell. the prosecution would say thy had done that with original money.

curly - that was really kinds of you getting in touch with that lady. i too have many years contact of british prisons when my brother was convicted of murder when i was 13. my mum drank to cope with visiting her son behind bars and in the end it was that that helped kill her. i think OP IS ASKING FOR HELp IN A WAY (sorry) and maybe posting here for ideas. IMO

That was my alternative suggestion. If they are at totally committed to a guilty plea then they need to organise their life so that after he is in prison a civil damages claim against him and possibly even her which results in their house being taken away is avoided (if legally possible to avoid it). I suppose under the assets they have might be frozen anyway but I was just speculating on what to do if they are committed to the perjury of admitting guilt when you're innocent, as it were.

The burden of proof in a criminal case is "beyond reasonable doubt", which means that if the defence can throw up any doubt as to his guilt, then the chances are the jury will find him not guilty.

The burden of proof in the civil court is far less - on the balance of probabilities. Pleading guilty in court will mean that the burden of proof for recovery has been provided by the defence already, so they will have no problem in recovering funds - which may involve having to sell the family home to recover his share.

Pleading guilty will have a profound affect on their lives far beyond the initial period of imprisonment, etc. He may find it difficult or even impossible to obtain another job - prospective employers will not listen to protestations that he only pled guilty to minimise the affect on his family. They will only see the guilty plea and the conviction (which will have to be declared for many years to come). Pleading guilty also means that you cannot appeal the verdict.

If your husband is training to be a driving instructor will he be able to be one with a criminal record as nowadays I think they are CRB checked. I sympathise so much for you but I do think you need to look at the implications of the future for both of you.

I think many of us have tried to tell Puddytat a lot of this stuff in the past and haven't been taken up.

She is mistaken in her assertion that legal aid does not cover the cost of expert witnesses - it does.

Why she needs a QC is beyond me - a regular barrister is perfectly fine for a case such as this - certain preferable to pleading guilty for something he didn't do. And of course, legal aid would cover the cost of that.

I am fast coming to the conclusion that a) Puddytats DH is guilty - and is using the I am innocent line to protect his nearest and dearest and to avoid having to explain where £40k is stashed, or b) this is a work of fiction.

Most banks will write to you to inform you if a payment is made into your account of more than £10k. This is to cover them under the money laundering regs which mean that they must determine the source of funds for large irregular payments into your bank accounts. That money was moved several times into, between and out of the Puddytats accounts without any of this being triggered is almost impossible, in my view. Secondly, all of the movements around accounts and out of the account is supposed to have been done over the internet. To move money around there must be a transferree sort code and account number which is retained on the account history for quite some time. Heck, I can look at my own account history for the past 5 years! It is beyond comprehension, that there are no transferree details on the internet account for the final movement out of the Puddytats account. The bank has these details and I cannot imagine that the police or SFO would not obtain these details. This is hardly a complex fraud - pure bread and butter stuff!

Either there is a lot that Puddytats is not sharing with us or... well I will leave it to you to decide for yourselves!

I think Soapbox you may be right, and I know you certainly seem to know what you are talking about, of course no one knows for sure apart from her husband but unfortunalty many men do lie about all sorts of things to their wife's after many many years of being together ,I would want to know every last detail and fact for myself especially if mine and my children's home was at risk. I did wonder Puddytats does you husband know you post on here and does he read the responses?

I have no legal knowledge either but really think you shouldn't plead guilty it has horrendous consequences.Someone I knew years ago had a carpet/rug business and the warehouse where he stored stuff burned down All fingers etc pointed to him and he def didn't do it.He was advised similarly to your husband initially but his dad insisted they take it to the bitter end and he pleaded not guilty and won.Not sure of the ins and outs was so long ago but just don't think they can imprison someone unless 100% sure?

Soapbox I agree re the banks I had a largish sum into my account once when we sold a flat and they didn't let me draw against it and I had to go in and see them as they weren't use to big sums going into my account.Someone must know where this money went Please don't implicate yourself in a guilty plea as it will affect you for years to come

I would also take issue with the statement that legal aid doesn't run to forensic experts, etc. The whole point about legal aid is that it is supposed to put the recipient in the same position as someone who can afford to pay for their own defence. If a forensic expert is required in order for someone to present a viable defence, then it will be allowed for on legal aid (your solicitor may have to get specific permission for it, but it is absolutely feasible).

If you are being advised that, because you are on legal aid, you cannot have the same means to prove your innocence as someone with pots of money, then I would seriously consider changing my adviser.

i havenot done legal aid work for a long time but recall that it was possible to instruct experts with the prior permission of the LSC . i can't imagine that something as fundamental as this has changed as it is clearly necessary to the case. it is all rather odd...

I agree with Soapbox - It just doesn't stack up. - None of it does really. I bank on line and have worked in banks I know they keep records electonically and paper if used. - Admittedly an odd document can become mislaid but not a series of them, and if these tranacations were online they absolutely can be traced. I've also worked in accounts for over ten and often had to make audit trails. I think everyones elses good advice and good wishes here are just being wasted.

In a few legal aid cases I've done we've instructed experts but I think there'd be more limitations on those you might use, not that I know about this kind of case.
soapb's post seems wise.
I can't really see what's the risk of pleading not guilty even if you haven't the money to prove various things, unless you're 100% sure the sentence would be much much less than not pleading guilty.
If you're 100% sure of a husband then there should be no problems with him submitting to a lie detector test. I think I'd want that just to be sure, although I know we don't use them I think in UK cases, they are available in this country.