Advice sought re. school bursaries and property

[AssetRichIncomePoor]

Our children are currently at prep school, which is just about affordable as one has an 80 percent choral scholarship. In due course, they will move on to private secondaries - whereupon the fees go up so much that we can't afford them. We are hoping that DC1 will get another scholarship - but that is likely to be worth only five percent of the fees, which leaves us with a mere 95 percent of around 5k per term to pay.

Our gross income is around 40-50K (most of it from holiday lets), so we would in theory qualify for a bursary on top of any scholarship.

However, we own property: two holiday lets, one rental property (with a mortgage) and our own house (with a mortgage), so fear this will exclude us from bursaries. In total, we probably have 550K of our actual money invested in property. If we did sell all our property, that would enable us to pay some fees (though not for long, as DS is wanting to board). However, it would leave us with no income and no pension.

Does anyone have any idea how we can get round this problem? Any advice would be most gratefully received.

Why can't one of you get a job that pays well and sub-contract the cleaning/secretarial work? Both of those jobs are part-time at most.

You wrote that your ds was on a choral scholarship so I would expect you to be familiar with choristers since obviously your ds is one! The point I was trying to make, and seemingly failing to do, is there are plenty of dcs like your ds seeking senior school scholarships. If he is also a county standard sportsman or academically very bright then you would stand more chance at getting a full scholarship.

Personally I'd be delighted if ds got a senior boarding school school with fees of only £15,000. I could afford that at a push but then I work full-time am a single parent and, being employed, have no way of hiding my income. All the senior schools I've looked at quote fees of £30,000 so ds will really have to sing for his supper if he wants to go there.

Sorry, MollieO: I was talking rot. I was thinking of day schools with the 5K per term that I mentioned (am muddling up children). DS is also extremely clever, so I would be surprised if he didn't get some form of scholarship in due course.

I am not asking for or expecting sympathy. What I was hoping for was someone to come along with some practical advice and knowledge of how bursaries work. Some posters have kindly offered the benefit of their wisdom, for which I am grateful.

In response to the 'get a job' posters: DH and I also work from home in other capacities. We are not very well paid for it, but there are mitigating factors why DH can't work outside the house or look after the children (I don't wish to go into the reasons why, as they are personal to him).

Holiday lets are not a full time job! Not even for 1 person let alone 2!

My parents had a house with 3 studios in it they let out in the holidays as well as another long term rental house. They managed this on top of 2 full time jobs and being parents. You must be very slow and/or disorganised if it takes 2 of you a 40 hour week.

My jaw hit the floor when you said you dont even have mortgages on these. You will categorically NOT get a bursary unless you mortgage/sell these.

Having one SEN child will be taken into account when considering the employment status of one of you, but unless s/he has extreme needs then one of you is going to be expected to pick up some other paid employment (night bar work, early morning cleaning etc).

As for your 'find me a school hours job paying £25k+' comment, well welcome to the world of 90% of Mums. If this Dc is in a private school already then surely there are before/after school clubs which should provide for you to work M-F 9-5, plenty of which pay £25K.

If your DP has a disability then you are going to have to disclose that as a reason for not working. But they are going to ask why he is not getting IB/ESA/DLA.

I hope I answered the 'job' question above, margerykemp. I am to a great extent a single parent (and choir parent to boot) with three jobs at home and three children, one with SN. Night bar work? By the time all the children are in bed, it's 10pm. So someone's really going to pay me 25K pa to work a couple of hours in a nightclub or cleaning floors before the DC go to school at 7.15am?!

Believe me, there are good reasons why DH and I don't have standard jobs.

I am happy to disclose anything on a bursary form - just not on an open internet forum. I have not yet said that we don't get any of those benefits, either.

Here is a sample from one school's bursary policy. AFAIK an identikit policy is used at many schools.

"The ability to improve the financial position or earning power of the family: For example, where there are two partners, both would be expected to be employed unless one is prevented from doing so through incapacity, the need to care for children under school age or other dependents, or the requirements of their partner?s work.
Opportunities to release any capital: Significant capital savings and investments would be expected to be used for the payment of school fees, as would equity values in houses.
Acknowledging that others might have a different view, the School considers that the following would not be consistent with the receipt of assistance with fees:

Frequent or expensive holidays

New or luxury cars

Investment in significant home improvements

A second property/land holdings
Other Factors: It is recognised that, in addition to academic ability and financial constraints, there may be other circumstances which should be considered. These include:

Where a child has siblings at the School

Where the social needs of the child are relevant (eg: may be suffering from bullying at their present school).

Where a parent/guardian is terminally ill or is unable to secure permanent employment due to poor health.

Where a separation has resulted in the child having to be withdrawn from the School adding to the stress of coping with the parents/guardians separating."

I would have a chat with the bursars at the schools you are interested in. You will then have an idea of what is doable and what isn't. Your personal circumstances are personal to you and therefore no-one can give you real advice on bursaries on an internet forum. Fwiw Christ's Hospital has a very generous bursary scheme thanks to its huge endowment. It is a school that people seem to love or hate but it is very open about level of bursaries on offer.

If, for whatever reason, you are only prepared to disclose half a story on here, you cannot be surprised if people are going to give you a hard time over your perceived sense of entitlement.

Thank you, both. Those are two very helpful responses.

annh, I can take a flaming over my apparent sense of entitlement (a favourite word on MN, I note). I have yet to be called a c*, so this is all very mild.

MollieO Christ's Hospital bursary scheme whilst generous on one hand does see you living in poverty to afford your contribution. In all fairness though it's one way of ensuring you value the education your dc is getting though.

Well, on a practical note, if your DS went to the yehudi menuhin school, then you'd have to pay £3309 per year if your income was £40k, and £5010 if it were £50k.

Chethams would charge £3298-£4295 pa.

Given that you currently pay £5k per term, you should be around 66% better off if he gets in through the MDS for senior school.

Lougle, those are definitely interesting to us. We actually pay very little for DS at the moment thanks to his very hefty scholarship (I was thinking of the other DC - fees are due later this week, and I am getting agitated and muddling my numbers up as I always do at the start of term). But the music schools are massively cheaper than even the secondary day schools that we know of, so that would be a huge bonus for us - and DS would get to pursue his obsession.

With realisable assets of £550k and income of say £45k a year, you don't stand a chance of a means-based bursary. You might find the very occasional school offer an exceptional choral student a higher % bursary, but they are few and far between, and the subject of intense competition.

Is there a middle ground where you can release say £150k of assets by selling one rental property? Assuming you need roughly £20k x 6 years = £120k, this should allow for extras and inflation. Your income will drop, and your potential pension, but you are just going to have to suck that up I'm afraid. That is literally the price you have to pay for private school. You cannot expect to sit on £550k assets and not pay the majority of any fees.

If you are adamant about not seling any of your properties could you remortgage one of them? It would mean you have a relatively small monthly repayment to make, far less than if you were simply trying to pay from term to term, although obviously you would have to pay interest back on it.

A specialist music school is what you need. Chetham's, St Mary's Music School or similar. Cheaper than an independent boarding school but with even more one-to-one.

You are well off and frankly don't deserve a bursery. They are there to reach out to others less fortunate than your DCs. I sympathise over the jobs thing though. Not like you don't work with 3 DCs, one SN etc, etc. People can be bitter.

Hi again,
I went to Chethams and from what you've said about your son, he'd love it there. I have to honest (and I mean this in the politest way possible) that there will be other children of his age who may 'more' talented as they (used to anyway) prefer a child to excel on one instrument rather than be quite good on three. You've more chance bursary wise however. Depends if he's a string player for the menuhin school. Or... If he plays a more obscure instrument like the bassoon, double bass, tuba etc he could get a more substantial scholarship at a main stream school - as the school orchestra never has enough viola players!
Also, I'm relatively new to mumsnet and I'm astounded and some of the fairly rude comments you've received!
Anyway, hope all goes well for him.

I actually thought that, apart from my own opinion of the MDS against say keeping police on the streets or providing adequate occupational therapy or speech and language therapy, I was very helpful given that I linked to the MDS schools where you would have seen the fee information that Lougle kindly posted for you .

This is still living beyond your means - you need to realise an asset rather than take from a fund that is for children who genuinely cannot afford to attend otherwise - you can afford it you just will not prioritise it. You will not get a bursary when you have half a million in assets - morally; where is your compass on this? I find it extraordinary that you really think you should even be able to apply for it at all.

You may have a million reasons (which are probably all very good) why you both don't have proper full time jobs but an awful lot of people are in your situation with SN children and living hand to mouth and without the security of a trust fund and a property portfolio and the luxury (and it is that) of part time employment.

Your mitigating circumstance make no odds in this situation - my two elder DC's both have special needs - both with substantial learning problems and one with major health problems added to that. There is a perfect school for my dd2 - it is 30k a year and it is not going to happen - I think we may end up Home Edding because we have no other choices - YOU DO HAVE A CHOICE AND YOU ARE PUTTING YOUR PENSION ABOVE YOUR CHILD'S EDUCATION. Now that is fine, that is your choice, but you cannot have it both ways and expect a bursary to pay for an education you cannot afford.

Pinky, I am not expecting anything at all. I was hoping for helpful advice, and have had plenty of it. The rest I can take on the chin!

Ben10, your post was very helpful, and I am grateful. I am sorry I didn't acknowledge this.

RockChick: sadly, we can't get a mortgage at all on a holiday let. But thank you!

Mumminggnome, thank you so much for your insight into Chethams. That is fantastic. DS does also play an obscure instrument (not a string player at all). I also think it would be fantastic for him to be among children who are (even) more talented than he is. It is just what he needs.

PatriciaHolm, I'm afraid we need much more than that as we have three DCs. But as you say, we will just have to suck that up. There's no chance of the others getting any kind of scholarship, so I am not even thinking of busaries for them!

Sell the lets and go back to conventional work. The equity will pay the fees and your dh can claim benefits if he is disabled. You can bring in teh money for food and bills. The lifestyle you aspire to is one you can't afford and the holiday lets are an indulgence not a career if they don't pay their way. Maybe you can do something like that further down the line

'Go back to conventional work' is rather difficult, given that I have never had a conventional job. A DPhil in mediaevel history qualifies me for very little. And who will deal with SN child if I'm at work? He is the main reason that I have never had conventional work. Sigh. I think we're getting off the point, really; the holiday lets do provide us with as good an income as I would get from working conventionally. Our income from property would probably mean we would qualify for a bursary; the fact that we own the property would probably disqualify us. That's what I'm trying to work out.

If your letting business is run as a trade and is your genuine source of income , I.e your effective employment then you may not be disqualified on that basis .We would also take the fact that you have caring responsibilities into account .You need to talk to the bursars involved

Thank you, mrswoodentop. That is very helpful.