tax credits-banging head against a brick wall

[oldinboden]

I really really don't get what's happening.
I renewed my tax credit claim and received a letter soon after saying that my childcare payments would stop and they would be clawing back £10k because my 4 children were being cared for by a childminder who is a relative and doesn't look after any non-realated children
.My mum is a registered childminder and looks after my Dc at her house.I have looked on the tax credit website and at their own 'tax credit compliance manuals' and it is absolutely clear that we do qualify.
I faxed the woman dealing with the case a screenshot of the web page but the dozey bat kept insisting that an approved childcarer is the same as a registered childminder
I immediately filed a complaint and contacted my MP who is 'making enquiries'
i contacted the complaints department who said that my case must be very technically complex as it had been escalated to the 'Chairmans committee'.How can it be complex -their own guidance is crystal clear on the matter.

Has any one else had experiences like this?

I can't help, but share your frustrations about the tax credits. It's so confusing and every diffedrent person I speak to when i phone says somethubg different!!

does your mum look after other non-related children aswell?

I lifted this from the HMRC handbook

Childcare will not be eligible care for the help within the Working Tax Credit childcare element if it is provided by

?A relative of a child looking after that child in the child's home. Even if the relative is registered or approved
?In England by a child carer approved under the Child Care Approval Scheme, who is caring for a child away from the child home, and who is only caring for a child to whom they are related

The link is www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/ntcmanual/eligibility_childcare/ntc0260100.htm always thought no family member at all could be claimed for. I really really hope this is wrong though!

www.hmrc.gov.uk/leaflets/wtc5.pdf
"You can?t usually claim help with childcare provided by relatives, even if they are
registered or approved. You can claim if the relative is:
? a registered childminder or
? in Wales or Northern Ireland, approved under a Home Child Care Providers Scheme
but they must also:
? care for your child outside of your child?s own home and
? care for at least one other child who is not related to them."

Basically, as long as your Mum childminds for at least one other, non-related child on a regular basis, then you are in the clear. Otherwise, you have been claiming childcare costs that are not 'relevant'.

sometimes,but not at the moment.But 5that

Their manual section CCM 6265 says

'if the childcare provider is a relative and they are regsiterd as a childminder with OFSTED the childcare is acceptable as qualifying childcare unless the childcare takes place in the child'd own home'

Apparently though if they are not a Registerd cm but approved under the Tax Credits(Approval of Home child care providers )scheme they have to have non-related children (although this scheme it says has been phased out since July 09

Treedelivery-
Childcare will not be eligible care for the help within the Working Tax Credit childcare element if it is provided by

?A relative of a child looking after that child in the child's home. Even if the relative is registered or approved

?In England by a child carer approved under the Child Care Approval Scheme, who is caring for a child away from the child home, and who is only caring for a child to whom they are related

But neither of the points apply!

point one (they are not doing it in the child
a home)

point 2 (they are not approved under the child care approval scheme)

Lougle
That advice is what is confusing because it woul either seem to be at odds with guidance else where on the site
as quoted in my above post
and also
here

or it is badly worded and the last 2 bullet points only apply to the 2 nd

I don't know whether the tax credit manuals or the information leaflets take precedence??

I would be interested in knowing the outcome to this.

From how I understand the rules, your mum would need to be caring for unrelated children in addition to grandchildren.

So if HMRC or Ofsted (assuming you are in England) has done some investigation and concluded that your mum is only caring for your children... no others... then it would meet the conditions for tax credits, or for Ofsted registration.

In the 2009 version of WTC2, it says that childcare is NOT eligible if "caring for a child, away from the child?s home and the care is solely for a child to whom the provider is related."

2010 version of WTC5 says that a relative whom is a registered childminder is eligible IF:

• care for your child outside of your child?s own home and
• care for at least one other child who is not related to them

So if your mum does not care for any other children other than those who are related to her, then it does not qualify for tax credits purposes. She has to be caring for another child to whom is she not related.

Oh God who knows. Probably not even them.

I wish you good luck. How stressful for you!

Let us know how you get on, as my mum is desperate to leave work and care for my children, and if we could pay her with some tax credits it might even be a good idea!

But that's besides the point, I hope you get sorted.

www.hmrc.gov.uk/taxcredits/start/who-qualifies/children/approved-childcare.htm

Well, if as you say, your Mum is registered as a childminder and is caring for your DS exclusively in her home, then she meets the condition on is link:

"A registered childminder who cares for your child outside of your child's own home."

But nannynick looking at what I have quoted from CCM6265 and redirectingat.com/?id=470X756&xs=1&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hmrc.gov.uk%2Ftaxcredits%2Fstart%2Fwho-qualifies%2Fchildren%2Fapproved-childcare.htm%236&sref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mumsnet.com%2FTalk%2Flegal_money_matters%2F1034120%3FpagingOff%3D1%2321153738 here under childcare by a relative]]

that is not what it says

That sounds more encouraging! I really hope they agree. It's maddness, why did they give you the money in the frst place if they feel you are not entitled. These are their rules. Such a frustrating system.

madness

Oh I really need to use preview!

So if HMRC or Ofsted (assuming you are in England) has done some investigation and concluded that your mum is only caring for your children... no others... then it would NOT meet the conditions for tax credits, or for Ofsted registration.

I have no idea if the Tax Credits Manual available online or the information booklets (such as WTC2, WTC5) take precedence. I expect possibly neither... as there is Legislation around including SIs - such as Working Tax Credit (Entitlement and Maximum Rate) Regulations 2002 plus all the amendments to that.

I think it's a misprint in that leaflet. The 'but they need to care for...' relates to both points and should be on the next line as it were.

But it is madness that you can't claim for paying your mum in your house, but then could claim for paying her in her house, isn't it?

Tell me, when she cares for your children, does she complete observations, and do whatever else it is that childminders do, or is she being their Nanny?

To be honest, I think you know that it is dodgy ground for you to be claiming the cost of paying your own mother for looking after your children while you work, and as Nannynick says, if she isn't also caring for other children who are not related, then she isn't meeting the grounds for OFSTED registration in the first place.

I see what you mean... that webpage does imply it's ok... though I suspect the BUT bit should have been separate, rather than at the end of just the second entry.

However, that's just a website... it isn't legislation. So the legislation would take precedence in my view. So the key is finding the relevant legislation and all the amendments over the years, so that it can be correctly interpreted at the time you made the initial claim (and the subsequent renewals).

In fact OFSTED seal it for me, by their own definition:

"Childminder

This is a person who is registered to look after one or more children, to whom they are not related, for reward. Childminders work with no more than two other childminders or assistants."

Your Mum is not a childminder if she is looking after her grandchildren, which means that you cannot claim the costs of paying her for that care as relevant childcare costs. You owe the HMRC whatever they have paid you for it.

agree with nannynick - trawling though the legislation won't be much fun, but neither will paying back £10k. this might help.

I'm assuming she DOESN'T care for other, non-related, children?

Link to some legislation and amendments which I think may be appropriate... though it might not be. Legislation is a bit like that... it will refer to other legislation for definitions.

Childcare Act 2006

(4)?Childcare? does not include care provided for a child by?

(a)a parent or step-parent of the child;

(b)a person with parental responsibility for the child;

(c)a relative of the child;

(d)a person who is a local authority foster parent in relation to the child;

(e)a person who is a foster parent with whom the child has been placed by a voluntary organisation;

(f)a person who fosters the child privately.

They aren't going to award childcare costs for something that isn't childcare.

oldinboden
keep fighting whatever you do and make sure you keep ALL correspondence. I had a similar issue with them over a childcare mistake they were advised of but failed to correct, then they threatened to claw back 6k even though I did not owe it. They even threatened to take me to court. It took two years and countless letters before they finally admitted they were wrong, many times they ended their letters with the words that I had no leave to appeal their decision. The tax credit office is an utter shambles !