tax credits-banging head against a brick wall

[oldinboden]

I really really don't get what's happening.
I renewed my tax credit claim and received a letter soon after saying that my childcare payments would stop and they would be clawing back £10k because my 4 children were being cared for by a childminder who is a relative and doesn't look after any non-realated children
.My mum is a registered childminder and looks after my Dc at her house.I have looked on the tax credit website and at their own 'tax credit compliance manuals' and it is absolutely clear that we do qualify.
I faxed the woman dealing with the case a screenshot of the web page but the dozey bat kept insisting that an approved childcarer is the same as a registered childminder
I immediately filed a complaint and contacted my MP who is 'making enquiries'
i contacted the complaints department who said that my case must be very technically complex as it had been escalated to the 'Chairmans committee'.How can it be complex -their own guidance is crystal clear on the matter.

mumoy you can only fight something that is wrong. It is well known that direct relatives cannot be paid for childcare.

wow that seriously is as clear as mud.

I had always thought i couldn't claim for childcare even if my mum was registered, so didn't.

good luck is all i can say...

Nanny Nick-Thankyou very much for that legislation- i will have a good look through!

My mum is most definitely a fully fledged registered childminder.She is ropen to other children (-to not be so would be discriminatory).But she is most definitely registered

Lougle-Thankyou for your links but I don't think the Childcare act etc are OFSTED legislation aren't relevant

The tax credit manual is a detailed guidance book for Tax credit staff and this page

here

Paragraph 4 says

'If the child care provider is a relative and they are registered as a childminder with Ofsted, the child care is acceptable as qualifying child care unless the child care takes place in the child's home. You should not make enquiries regarding the number of children the relative looks after because for tax credit purposes the fact that they are registered with Ofsted is sufficient.'

It then goes on to talk about

'In England

'... you should check if the relative was approved under the Tax Credits (Approval of Home Child Care Providers) Scheme. If they were and child care took place in the relative's home, child care charges are not allowable unless the relative usually looked after other children to whom they are were not related. If they were registered under this scheme and child care took place in the child?s own home, child care is not allowable for tax credit purposes.'

I think that makes it very clear that the bit about non-related children related to childcarers approved under the Tax Credits (Approval of Home Child Care Providers) Scheme

So I am pretty sure on my ground and the confusion seems to have arisen because the woman dealing with my claim said there was no difference between Approved home childcar providers and OFSTED registered childminders.

It does seem to be a bit unclear. Certainly the tax credit manuals seem to refer to schemes no longer in existence, at least not in existence in England.

Having had a brief glance at the legislation it does not seem to mention care by relatives... does not really deal with the situation of the registered childminder also being a relative of the child.

I'm wondering how Tax Credits have found out that the registered childminder whom is providing the care, is a relative and currently only cares for related children (am I right in presuming that in the past she has cared for non-related children and is looking for 1 or more non-related children to care for now).

They asked her what other children she cared for which seems to be in contradiction to their own guidance.

' You should not make enquiries regarding the number of children the relative looks after because for tax credit purposes the fact that they are registered with Ofsted is sufficient.?

Further down the page it says
'From 18 July 2009 the Tax Credits (Approval of Home Child Care Providers) Scheme, is no longer acceptable as qualifying child care and from that date the relative must be registered by Ofsted'

the good thing about tax credits is that if teh overpayment is their fault I won't have to pay it back.I think they would have a very hard time arguing that putting incorrect info on their website wasn't their fault!

You can only claim tax credits for a relative if they are registered and looking after at least one non related child. That;s the rule.

This is such a silly rule though. If you are going to pay someone to look after your children surely it is better if that person is your mother. So a grandparent should be able to give up work and care for their grandchildren and the parent should be able to claim tax credits to pay the grandparent just as they would pay a nursery or non related childminder.

However, that is not the case. I don't agree with the rules, but you broke them. I think they will and rightfully should, take the money back from you.

Starbuck- Where are you getting that information from?
I think you have to provide some sort of back up to a claim like that.The OP has provided links to the tax credit website that say the opposite!

Actually, I do think the Childcare Act 2006 and the OFSTED guidance are relevant.

The Childcare act specifically states that care provided by a relative is not 'childcare'.

The childcare element of the Tax credits is what is in dispute.

OFSTED specifically state that a childminder is someone who undertakes to care for a child or children who is not related to them for reward.

Your Mum cannot register with OFSTED as a childminder just to look after grandchildren. She can look after grandchildren, but in doing so she is not acting as a childminder, because the care of her grandchildren is exempt from OFSTED registration.

Brassband - relatives are mentioned in WTC2 and WTC5 booklets.
So the tax credits manual and the WTC booklets don't seem to be saying the same thing.

Lougle - I agree, if someone does not meet requirements to register as a childminder, the regulator can take steps to de-register them.

Oddinboden - did your mum make it clear that she was actively looking for a mindee unrelated to them and that she did have a mindee unrelated to them?

All the WTC documentation says that if the childcarer is related then they have to have at least one more child in their care that is not related.

Otherwise everyone could simply get the government to pay their parents!

I cant see the overpayment being overturned unless for 99% of the time she did care for others but it does sound like she didnt and registered purely for her grandchildren alone.

www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/tctmanual/attachments/tctm11000_emr_reg.pdf

at last have found the legislation (as amended July 2009)and that doesn't even mentioned approved childcarers or say anything about other children minded-this would agree with the instructions in the child tax credit manuals.
I think the wtc 2 & 5 leaflets are (perhaps deliberately) worded in an ambiguous way.
Furthermore I have discussed the matter with a word with a neighbour who works for OFSTED.She said that a parent wouldn'thave the right to demand a childminder reveal names or details of all other children minded.So a claimant would therefore not necessarily know, whether any non-related are cared for.

That is good news! I have been doubting my own sanity!

The key here I think is to refer HMRC to the legislation, pointing out what the legislation says - quote the legislation. They can then argue about if the conditions in the legislation were met, or not.

There is still potentially a difficulty in that the Exemptions to the Childcare Act 2006 exempt a relative from needing to register as a childminder. Though I don't think it prohibits them from registering!

marking my place as I want to know the outcome!

UPDATE***

The tax credits office rang today to say they are going to reinstate the childcare.
The tax credits manual states that relatives who are OFSTED registerd qualify as long as the care is not provided in the child's home regardless of whether they mind other children

It has taken 10 weeks though.We were told they would stop our childcare charges and we would have to pay back £10,000.The so-called specialist team said we were wrong , the citizens advice Bureau said we were wrong.Even their own leaflet WTC5 is wrong.

So the moral of the story-never take anyone else's word for what the legal situation is - DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH !!