How do you respond to the claim that menopause is natural and therefore you shouldn't use HRT?

[Neulip]

I was reading though an "anti hrt" account on instagram and first let me say I am totally in support of any woman making the choice that is right for her to take or not take HRT but one of the common threads of this woman's rejection of HRT was that menopause was a natural transition and therefore we shouldn't interfere with it. Yes menopause is natural but for most women it isn't a transition to a new optimal state of being but actually a rather brutal biological and evolutionary economy that isn't carefully planned to benefit women in anyway, frankly mother nature doesn't care what happens to us when we are past the point of reproduction, she isn't even that focused on our comfort when we are fertile. If it is unnatural and therefore inherently harmful to treat menopause as a disease then what about any other medical intervention? Is anyone arguing that type one diabetics just do more yoga or give up drinking rather than rely on insulin?

I just don't get this argument against HRT at all?

I take HRT absolutely couldn’t live without it.
Fine if you manage without it.
Think working women are not comparable with women who do not work outside the home though.
Having to be on the ball, smartly dressed, presenting to others, all whilst meeting deadlines makes a difference.

I think it’s her opinion and she’s absolutely entitled to it. Menopause is a natural process.
women who choose or need to take HRT are absolutely entitled to their choices as well.

My go to comment for most of the advertorial/lifestyle shit I see on Instagram. I quite enjoy a good Oh Fuck Off scroll.

I think it’s her opinion and she’s absolutely entitled to it. Menopause is a natural process.

She is entitled to it but also, it does make her a huge hypocrite if she takes painkillers or uses other medical interventions to help her. That alone weakens her stance considerably and makes her look like a bit of a twat

I have two reactions to numpties like this. The first is the "fuck off" reaction that the previous poster mentioned. The second is the judginess of it all - I am better than you, I am stronger, more in tune with things, just all round superior because I have not suffered with menopause symptoms as much as you have.

So bloody what. It's well known that menopause is not a universal experience. Some women will float through it with little to no symptoms, others will have hot flushes or joint aches they can cope with, others will want to kill themselves or others around them.

I would not be here without HRT.

I take thyroxine because my thyroid doesn't work properly, that is HRT. Should I stop?

We wrongly assume that joint pain is due to hormone deficiency. We forget that our joints are aging. Men suffer the same joint deterioration and muscle loss. It’s just our bodies normal regeneration process slowing down. They are moving parts and continuous use over a period of time eventually causes natural wear and tear.

our cells have predetermined number of times that they can divide to maintain an organ or tissue. So it follows that by the time we reach our 50s some of these processes are slowing down or that cells are no longer dividing.

The endocrine system is complex and relies on complicated feedback systems. Our estrogen and progesterone levels remain pretty constant until we actually go through menopause. Our monthly cycle would fail if they are not at the level that controls the cycle but the ovaries need increasingly higher levels of the hormones that stimulate the production of estrogen and progesterone. A gradual rise in FSH is needed to stimulate production. But there is a lack of research into the mechanism and the focus has always been to supplement rather than investigate the underlying cause of symptoms. If HRT works why look for other solutions.

Since many endocrine glands actually reduce output when the end hormone is replaced, corticosteroids are one such mechanism, then HRT may well be interfering with normal production in perimenopausal women. There may be more effective ways to increase natural hormone production by coming at it from a different direction. Certainly the evidence is emerging that women starting HRT in perimenopause seem to need to increase the dosage to maintain the effect, suggesting the body is no longer maintaining the levels naturally.

I started HRT probably just as I was going into post meno so the low dose was fine And I ticked over.

Going back to the feedback mechanisms, when people take prednisone at high doses their body shuts down corticosteroid production because it recognises that the levels are high. Unfortunately under stress the body then fails to respond and they go into adrenal crisis. I have always wondered whether taking estrogen and progesterone, particularly the biocompatible versions has a similar effect shutting down natural production when the feedback mechanism suggests that levels are ok.

I was considering testosterone supplements to try a deal with the muscle pain and had discussed it with my GP who was happy to prescribe, but COVID hit then I was diagnosed with breast cancer.

The joint pain I have now is different to the problems I had during peri menopause. The muscle pain has eased. The hormone blockers I take cause fluid retention within the joint. It moves around and is worse with some manufacturers version than others. It also affects the joints bilaterally. Currently it’s both knees. The first joints affected were my elbows. Sometimes my wrists cause problems but it’s not consistent. I’ve change manufacturers again ( not by choice it’s usually whichever is available) and my knees are improving.

During perimenopause it was more muscular but I did notice a massive improvement when I started magnesium supplements. I take them until the symptoms improve then stop restarting them when symptoms appear. I’m now retired so have a much healthier diet. No eating on the run or convenience foods, so my dietary magnesium is better. I drink l ess caffeine and more water. My 40s and 50s were hectic and stressful.

Thyroxine is necessary. Generations of women before us have lived post menopausally without HRT, and we all did without them until we hit puberty. They are at reproductive levels for about 40yrs. Pre and post fertile years they are approximately the same low level. Obviously their decline has some effects but you don’t die as soon as your ovaries pack up.

Thyroxine is a life long hormone.

Estrogen and progesterone are only necessary during reproductive years. Our bodies produce smaller amounts when not supporting the reproductive organs.

I consider your comment far more judgy. For a significant number of women HRT is not advised. I had to stop it due to breast cancer. I started taking it with intention of carrying on for as long as I could. I did the research, the risk assessment but was hit by a wide ball.
Breast cancer affects 1 in 7 women, so not a rare disease.
It’s a massive shock when you become one of those statistics and to be honest having taken HRT and had the benefits it’s a bit of a kick in the teeth. You do feel like you are missing out. I was keen to rep the benefits, but had to make the decision between those benefits and the risk of dying early.
Looking for a more natural approach should always be applauded because not everyone has your confidence in HRT. It’s not about being stronger or better but giving support to those who are not able to join the bandwagon. It’s a normal part of life however unpleasant and it should not be treated as something to fear. HRT got me through the last few years of peri when it wasn’t pleasant but you shouldn’t be rude about women who chose an alternative approach.

My late mother lived to 90, but was bent double with osteoporosis. I'll be hanging onto my HRT.

Thank goodness, someone who understands the situation others are in who can't use HRT for whatever reason (see my reply upthread). Thank you for your understanding and kind reply.

I sometimes feel like some others are quite dismissive or harsh towards those who don't use HRT, as though it is some type of heinous crime. They are so evangelical about it that they are almost scornful of those who can't use any, which often makes me feel even more "broken"

It's good to see someone with a more balanced view.

What a brilliant, educated and thoughtful reply. You sound very well informed and intelligent ❤️

I can see both sides of this one. I don’t agree with Botox and the like, just because we can, I’m not sure it’s good for us individually or collectively, to mask the natural process of ageing and act as if ageing bodies aren’t beautiful. So I understand those who feel, it’s a difficult process that womens bodies have to go through, but it’s part of life and I want to accept it. I have a friend who holds this view and she sees HRT as ‘another way of silencing women’. I do sympathise with this to an extent, our society exerts a strong pressure on women to be perky, attractive and youthful, and huge amounts of money is to be made from this approach. I think we can do a lot better at accepting and embracing what is, rather than all the time spent on wishing our bodies were different.

BUT, imo HRT is not just about beauty and about degenerative conditions and illness. So to have the ‘do what the body naturally wants’ position - we’d also not treat cancer or other naturally occurring illnesses. I understand people who want minimal medical interventions because of the real possibility of horrible side effects, but in many cases, prolonging life is preferable. I’m debating HRT at the moment and will try it, when the time seems right.

So to answer your question, in a real conversation with a real human being, I’d say ‘tell me more about how you decided not to take HRT’ and listen with interest, because I find people fascinating. I think the tendency in our society to sneer at people with different views or call them stupid, is a shame. We don’t need to all do life the same way.

Oh no criticism of anyone who cannot have HRT because of medical reasons. That is an entirely different thing. I am talking about the people who promote "natural" and pour scorn on those of us who are on HRT not because they can't be, because they don;t have bad symptoms and cant get their head around why everyone isn't the same.

How do you respond to the claim that menopause is natural and therefore you shouldn't use HRT?

So's erectile dysfunction

Years ago I was told by a midwife that breastfeeding is the most natural thing in the world. Is it fuck, my poor baby was getting nothing, I had no milk and they insisted I keep trying. I’d had a traumatic birth and my milk didn’t come in, nothing, nada.

I’m now menopausal and take HRT along with testosterone, without it mine and my husband’s life would be a bloody nightmare. I hate people like this, just like the bloody midwife. We are all different and it’s up to each individual what they do with their bodies.

i think that her opinion is right that it is a completely natural thing but when we live a completely unnatural life with mortgages, work and bills we need all the help we can get if we want it .
The ideal life would be to fanny around all day , nap when we want , pick berries and mushrooms for sustenance and bathe in moonlit pools with fireflies and stars lighting up the sky but until that happens , give me the drugs lol 😂

HRT is great in helping women manage the symptoms of menopause, so I disagree with the account. I use HRT myself.

OTOH I also think that some menopause influencers are now pushing the idea that all women need HRT, which is not correct. I also think that it links to a societal norm which suggests that women have a duty to stay as young-seeming as they can for as long as possible and that HRT is an essential part of this- that the ideal is to have the same looks, libido and approach to life at 60 as you had at 30. And nothing wrong with wanting that, but when women start feeling that they ought to want it I think that’s just more evidence of the lack of value we place on older women and internalised misogynistic ideas about our primary value being as sex object.

Cancer is also ‘natural’. As is depression.

If a condition causes suffering and reduces a person’s quality of life, surely a person has the right to choose between treating it medically, through alternative remedies or not treating it at all?

It was in response to the question posed by the OP, in the OP of the thread 🤔.

I do think diet, exercise and well being plays a huge part in aging well and for me personally, that includes not filling the body with man made hormones. I worry a lot about cancer (having had treatment for early cancer cells of the cervix in my 30s) and I do my utmost to negate any risk factors. I have a lot of respect for nature and the processes our bodies go through. People don't regulate hormones as routine during puberty and I guess I view menopause in the same way.

However if people do choose to take HRT, that's their perogative. There's no right or wrong way to do any process in life if it's an informed choice.

Yup - it’s a case of ‘choose your poison’ - how would you prefer to live and what would you least like to die of?!. Risk assessment is hard. We’re all different.

The hormones in HRT now are body identical, meaning they are exactly the same (molecular structure) as our own. They are nothing like the Pill or other forms of hormones used for contraception. They are replacing falling levels of our own.

Puberty and menopause can't be compared.

Puberty is the change from childhood to being an adult capable of reproduction. It last for a few years. Menopause is a state that lasts for 30+ years in most women and comes with the risks of loss of estrogen which can be reduced to an extent but not completely.

Many women end up having to use far more drugs with nasty side effects (for osteoporosis or heart disease) which HRT can help prevent.
So yes, it is a choice but has to be an informed choice.

Agree with "fuck off".

Its just such a stupid argument - as PP have pointed out, unless this person has never ingested any pharmaceutical drugs themselves (including painkillers, anti biotics, vaccines etc) which frankly, I dont believe, then they are a massive hypocritical twat arent they?

Also, chronic agonising pain is "natural" - it's the body reacting to an injury of some kind. Should we be telling anyone in massive pain to suck it up and be more "natural"?

Yeah- good luck with that!

There are no more deaths because of using HRT .
The biggest causes of female deaths are dementia, CVD and osteoporosis.