Oestrogel: new packaging (yet again)? - Thread 2

[ConfusedEasily]

Carrying on from a previous thread by Cosmetichamster which can be found here:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/menopause/4696464-oestrogel-new-packaging-yet-again

I was given my oestrogel post-surgery and instructed one pump twice per day. I usually do two pumps once per day, am not religious about it, occasionally forget. It's great british winter time and I'm not hanging around with bare arms and in recovery I'm not going to lie I don't undress to have a shower every day! I've been rolling up my sleeves and putting it on the insides of my lower arms on days of no shower.

I'm also taking sage leaf extract a couple of times per week, recommended by a friend. It also turns out I consume a huge number of foods that are considered 'phyto-estrogenic' as I've been vegan for over 30 years. I hope i'm not overdoing it!

I haven't had any menopause symptoms at all (yet, hope never). I realise PMT and chronic gynae issues were causing such awful pain, horrific symptoms, terrible mental health, anxiety, and distress. It's going to take some time before it sinks it that it's all over I think. I can't see how any meno symptoms could be worse than all I've been through for 40 years of menstruation!

I only got one canister issued by hospital - it's lasted four weeks already and shows no sign of running out.

As GP has not reordered and is switching me to Oestrodot then I don't know how many months supply at a time I'll get.

I am totally convinced it's different so this thread has been interesting reading! I'm going to up to 4 pumps a day and see how I go, I've been totally fine on 2 for ages...right up until the bottle change!

Where do you all put it on? I'm having problems finding a skin surface I don't accidentally rub on something! I'm one of those people who usually gets up very quickly in the morning.

I've not had the benefit of the old bottle but the new bottle is doing nothing for me yet!

@GlamMa I rub 1 pump on each thigh every morning and evening so a total of 4 pumps each day. I do it as soon as I get out of the shower each morning and by the time I've brushed my teeth, put on my skincare and dried my hair it's dry. I've just switched to patches though and it's great not having to faff about with gel.

I put mine on the inside of my forearms, from wrist to elbow, I use one inner forearm to rub it in the other so effectively it's on both, as it goes a long way.

This way I can roll my sleeves up and put it on if I'm having a day in my PJs. I let it dry for a good 10 mins at least and then roll my sleeves back down.

This is not a method I have seen recommended and isn't the suggested place but it's working for me!

Thanks - those are good ideas! I've been trying my thighs but the dog is fascinated by the smell and keeps trying to get near me. Then I move around and touch other things. Might try my arms tomorrow!

I’ve started getting symptoms again after 2 years without any. 😢
I’ve doubled my dose on the new packaged product.

Doubled is a big increase. Will you let us know how you get on?

Thanks for the tips @LittleMissSunshiner and @pharmachameleon

I tried legs and arms today and it dries about twice as fast on my arms than my legs! Not sure why - maybe I wave them around more!

@LittleMissSunshiner Re. your where to put gel.

I am sure that some time ago I read a medical report on gel which said it ought to be applied to fatty areas of the body as it's better absorbed there.
That's why they suggest inner thighs and out, upper arms (not the inside of your upper arms in case it gets onto your breasts.
It's also why women apply a patch to their bum cheeks, or hip area.

The older packaging of gel used to suggest covering an area (with 1 pump) the size of the patient information leaflet. This was roughly the size of an A4 sheet.
So you need to spread it quite thinly. I use half a pump on each arm or thigh in the morning, then the same at night.

I’ve now been on sandrena for a few weeks after my symptoms came back with a vengeance on the new oestrogel packaging.. and I’m slowly feeling human again

Hello, I'm so glad I found this thread. I thought I was going mad with all my perimenopause symptoms flooding back. I've been on 4 pumps of oestrogel and since using the new style cylindrical bottles I've felt awful.
I found a lady on Instagram who had been weighing the dose and they were about 20% less, but I'm sure the gel feel different too after spreading.

I have reported my concern with bassin healthcare and the yellow card today.

I have book a gp appointment to review this. Has anyone gone from gel to patches?

@Chrisg79 yes I've just switched to the patches as I found a deterioration in my menopausal symptoms after starting the new Oestrogel packaging. I feel fine so far and it's great not having to rub cold gel into my legs and wait for it to dry twice daily!

@pharmachameleon thanks for your reply. Which patch have you moved onto?

I've changed to Evorel 100 patches which is equivalent to Oestrogel 4 pumps daily. I was on Utrogestan 100mg every night while I was on gel but my GP changed this to 200mg every night now I'm on the patches as she says the absorption is more stable on patches than gel.

I am very late to the party but thought I would share an anecdote. In 2016 I saw Prof John Studd who prescribed me Estrogel (my GP had briefly prescribed me Oestrodose which had done nothing). When I collected my prescription from the private pharmacy near his consulting rooms, I asked the pharmacist why I'd been given Estrogel Rather than Oestrodose? They replied that they didn't stock Oestrodose because none of the private menopause consultants would prescribe it. It was considered an inferior product, apparently.

Sorry, I posted too soon. I think my anecdote demonstrates that whilst estrogen gels might contain the same active ingredient, the many other ingredients e.g. filler, colouring, carrier agent, might be very different. Also they might not be transported or stored under ideal conditions.

There's a reason why other companies want to parallel import medicines. It's because they can make money by buying a licence from Besins And. Doing. It. Cheaper.

How are they doing cheaper? What corners are they cutting? I know for a fact that the Oestrodose gel was thinner and runnier than Estrogel gel. I compared them side by side and got DH to confirm it too.

I strongly suspect that Besins have sussed they can make more money by cutting the same corners in production, manufacture, packaging and shipping.

I’ve just switched to Sandrena after my symptoms came back on 2 pumps of Oestrogel/Oestrodose. I increased to 3 pumps which helped a bit but have moved to 1mg of Sandrena (equivalent to 2 pumps) - hope things will stabilise.

I’d be interested to hear how you get on with Sandrena as after just 48hrs using 1mg sachet I had awful night sleep full hot flushes felt awful with anxious feelings. Went back to 3 squirts of oestrogel instead of 2 that I’d been stable on and felt better within 48hrs again but then a week later awful 3days of migraines so I’m assuming 3 squirts is too much. As previously too much oestrogen triggered migraines. I’m going to try alt 2 one day and 3 pumps the next to see if i can average it out as getting 1/2 dose isn’t easy.

Help! My GP agreed to switch me out to Estrodot as I'm sick of faffing around with alcohol reeking gel (I'm a recovered alcoholic) and other people say the dot is great and easy to use.

But today, Boots pharmacy told me they cannot order from their supplier as their supplier stopped ordering from the manufacturer due to a global shortage. Said that I could try some independent places maybe but no pharmacy can give me more than 8 patches because of 'rationing'.

They've been sitting on my prescription for a whole week and this is the fourth story I've had from them (previous ludicrous story being that they had already filled it and given it me). They printed off my prescription and gave it me back, ie rejected it.

Anyway, I'm not going to lose my mind trying to chase around town finding 'dots' when I'm in recovery from major surgery. Is this a thing? Is Estrodot not possible to achieve? Jeez I'll stay on the vodka jellies if this is the case but now I need to ring my GP urgently tomo. So if anyone can advise me on what gives, I'll be truly grateful.

This is all so confusing. So I’ve currently got 3 different ‘types’ of estradiol in my cupboard. One in a box that says Oestrodose, that has the old funnel shaped bottle but with a printed label saying ‘Oestrogel’ stuck onto it. Then another in a box that says Oestrogel and is in the funnel bottle but with no sticker. Then the new, smaller box that says Oestrogel and has the cylindrical bottle everyone seems to hate.

Can anyone explain the difference between the 3? I think I’ve mainly used the middle one listed above that has the printed label saying Oestrogel on the funnel bottle and I’ve been ok on it. I don’t think I’ve tried the Holy Grail - if this is the one in the large box that says Oestrogel and has the funnel bottle with no sticker, as I’ve only ever received that from the pharmacy once. But after finishing my last one of the Oestrodose/funnel/Oestrogel label, switched to the cylinder one not realising it was getting so many bad reviews. Only been on it a few days but I did think the gel seemed slightly different and there was less of it in one pump.

I had read something saying to avoid the one with the stuck on label but given the issues with the cylindrical bottle is this perhaps better?

And I thought my sleep was being helped mainly by the Utrogestan, because I was given a generic progesterone recently and that was when I noticed my insomnia/anxiety returning with a vengeance. Also got a breakthrough bleed after two weeks on the generic progesterone. A brand called Gepretix.

Is it mainly the oestrogen that helps with sleep, then?

@OtterInDisgrace

I can only help to a limit. The new most recent version Oestrogel is the one in a cylinder with a cap on it and also a wee white plastic security tag -or- nozzle cover, depending on how you see it. To me, it's a seal x nozzle cover which I use faithfully as I believe it's to stop the product evaporating or drying.

This is the one being manufactured now and all other previous versions will be rare and collectable and quickly diminishing as everyone seems to prefer it!

IMO it's the progesterone makes you sleepy. I was on high dose progesterone prior my radical hysterectomy (ovaries removed) and took it at night as it helped me feel quite chilled out and also sleep. Now I'm on oestrogen only and struggle with sleep and my anxiety is back.

Maybe your generic progesterone isn't working? This can be for a variety of reasons including quality control and huge variation between levels of active ingredients in different manufacturers -or- because your body isn't absorbing / digesting it the same due to other reasons. That would explain the breakthrough bleeding and the anxiety.

@LittleMissSunshiner Inthink I am going to have the same issue with the estradot as my pharmacy ( which is a private pharmacy as I was forced to go private ) who can usually get anything , has said the same thing. My doctor has suggested I try the Evoral patches . I’m nervous about trying another new product but I’m hopeful that if it’s a patch like estradot then it should be ok?

To me, it's a seal x nozzle cover which I use faithfully as I believe it's to stop the product evaporating or drying.

@LittleMissSunshiner It's a security tag. It's very hard to replace as it's a tiny bit short, which shows its purpose is to be used once, as a security tag.

The gel can't evaporate because it's vacuum packed in the plastic pouch.
It can only come out once the nozzle is pressed.