Oestrogel: new packaging (yet again)? - Thread 2

[ConfusedEasily]

Carrying on from a previous thread by Cosmetichamster which can be found here:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/menopause/4696464-oestrogel-new-packaging-yet-again

I am new here, but I have read all the posts, including the 40 page thread.

I have had very similar problems with the new cylindrical cannister. I think that something has changed in the formulation or delivery system, that many of us absorb less of the active ingredient.

I have had a bit of a revelation in the last few days, as to why I am suffering so terribly, with difficulty falling asleep, anxiety dreams and waking every hour.

I think I am suffering from nocturnal panic attacks. Many of you have the same symptoms. We are the subset of women that have a very sensitive Amygdela.

For me, this is encouraging, as I can do something about it. Yes the stimulus is there, but my body is making this worse by goldplating my symptoms and releasing massive amounts of adrenaline.

There are a lot of helpful videos on Youtube. I have used :

It is early days, but last night I only woke three times and my dreams were copable with. I think I have turned a corner by stopping catastrophizing and realising that I can influence my sleep myself. Yes I did have a hot flush, but compared to what I used to get pre HRT, it was mild.

It is a tricky cure as you have to teach your mind not to care about the horrible symptoms that assail you, so that your Amygdela stops thinking that you are in existential danger and stops releasing massive amounts of adrenaline that make you suffer so dreadfully, in addition to the declining oestrogen symptoms.

I post this in the hope it might help someone. It has taken me ages to self diagnose myself, but it makes sense. I did not recognise them as panic attacks as I just awake with a racing heart and my pulse beating in my ears. I don't feel particularly annxious, I just feel wide awake and despair that I am going to have a long night of little sleep.

I have just read what I wrote and only waking uo three times a night does not sound that encouraging ! For me it was a massive improvement. Each time I just turned over in bed, aknowleged my symptoms, and fell asleep within ten minutes.

I woke refreshed at 7am. I feel optimistic that my sleep will improve as I know what I am dealing with.

I had the same email a while ago, I have now had a second email from Besins requesting this permission.
I have decided I don't want them to contact my GP. Not sure why they need to do this? Are they inferring other medical conditions/treatment has an influence? They also ask age, weight, height. Are they inferring this has something to do with it also? (my BMI is fine, 23 something).
My GP is calling me for a review later this week, might ask for something different as this no longer works for me and hasn't for many months now.

Hello All

I hope that this post helps. I have been struggling on Estrogel (Besins) for some time, never feeling great, never feeling awful then sometimes great sometimes awful! Then in December I started the new cylindrical bottles and oh boy did it all kick off.
Initially I felt really wired, panicky, fight or flight response activation and really, really low. All over Christmas and new year too so no means of talking to a GP. I managed to speak to a pharmacist who confidently told me to up my dose from 3 pumps to 4 or even 5. This did not help and I eventually saw a specialist who did blood work and prescribed the evorel 75 patch.

Then I got my estradiol results and this is the shocking thing they've gone through the roof on this new packaging - far, far exceeding anything normal.

I am clearly oestrogen dominant and scaling back down to 3 pumps and feeling less anxious but far from ok. I am going to go on to the 50 patch instead when I see my GP soon as I have also learned that oestrogen dominance is as problematic as oestrogen deficiency.

Whatever this new gel is it is clearly not the same as the conical bottle, while I suspect my oestrogen dominance was a factor on that too it was definitely better than now. I have raised a yellow card complaint but nothing after the initial confirmation of receipt.

Switching to 50 evorel asap - I hope this is of some comfort to those struggling. This gel is not the same as it used to be. Two specialists have confirmed that they have had lots of women reporting this.

It's probably because they want to monitor the number of complaints and they need to know that they are genuine. The only way to do that is to have some proof from a Dr that it's been prescribed for you (because anyone could fill in a yellow card and complain.)

I provided the box with the prescribing label as well as providing the bottles.

I'm not sure of the logic behind filling out yellow cards for no good reason?
I have responded to Besins that this an effective strategy for them not to respond further to these complaints!
If others are willing to provide permission for Besins to contact their GP it will be very interesting to hear the outcome.

I provided the box with the prescribing label as well as providing the bottles.

From their point of view, providing a box/bottle and label doesn't prove they belong to you.

Some people put all of those in their rubbish bins/recycling boxes and anyone could find them.

Not for a moment saying that anyone does that, but you can see Besin's point that they want proof that the person making a complaint is genuinely using it.

I see that but I’ve sent mine back via the prescribing pharmacist so it’s an awful lot of trouble for someone to go to if it’s not genuine. I haven’t yet been asked for my GPs details but will update if I am.
My pharmacist mentioned someone else has complained and he has told her to yellow card and contact Besins too.

I have decided I don't want them to contact my GP. Not sure why they need to do this? Are they inferring other medical conditions/treatment has an influence? They also ask age, weight, height. Are they inferring this has something to do with it also? (my BMI is fine, 23 something).

From another poster ^^

I am with you in that it is an awful faff and seems intrusive.
However, from a pharma point of view, it's understandable that they want to collect data on why a drug doesn't appear to be working for some people. Age , weight and BMI are relevant because some women may need more/less of a drug.

Besin's could be accused of not taking it seriously if they didn't collect data , so I'm sure that's why they are asking. They're trying to establish a pattern or correlation.

Can I ask those of you who are using the Oestrogel how many utrogestan pills do you take? I know it’s variable but generally what is the standard dosage?

I am on 3 pumps of gel and 1 tablet of utrogestan 100.

I’ve read that 3 pumps requires 2 pills I am confused.

My doctor isn’t knowledgeable she said to take 1 but I can take 2 no definitive answer…

Help 😊x

My understanding is that it's one pill daily with up to four pumps. I was on four pumps and one pill. (I am now trying patches as oestrogel was no longer working)
That's if you are taking continuously.

I was swapped to sandrena when oestrogel stopped working .. I use cyclogest pessaries as I’m very sensitive to progesterone .. I use half a 400mg pessary.. as 400 didn’t suit me but she told me 400 is recommended as the pessary isn’t absorbed in the same way as the tablets .
my menopause specialist said that half a pessary still fits the guidelines but recommended I up if periods are heavy .. so far this regime seems to be ok but only time will tell .

The standard dose is 200mgs for 12 days on sequential and 100mgs daily on continuous.

If you are experiencing bleeding on either of these doses, when you shouldn't be, AND you are using 3 or 4 pumps of gel, it's suggested you try 300mgs or 200mgs, but it's not mandatory. It's guidance.

I am taking it continuously as I am post menopausal.

I had some v heavy bleeding for about a week and the doctor said increase the pills to 2 but I didn't do that as I didn't want to risk any side effects (just started a new job when this happened) si I stuck with 1 pill and it stopped after about a week.

I'd been on patches but they didn't stick well for me and I feel lots better on the gel/utrogestan pills combo than I ever did with the patches. The doctor wouldn't refer me to the hospital re the bleeding as she said the rules are if it is within 6 months of changing HRT you are not referred...it used to be any post menopausal bleeding was refereed but they can't cope with the numbers now that more people are on HRT sis what she told me

it might be best to think about a new thread for this as it's a different issue...

however, there are lots of 'ifs' here, such as your age, how long since natural periods, how long on the new regimen, etc.

You can pay for a private scan if you are really worried although you shouldn't have to (but I know women who do, just to check things out.)

Okay thank you @JinglingSpringbells

I just thought I'd ask about dosage on here as the thread is about the oestrogel....don't want to derail though.

I may have to look at private for peace of mind as my doctor won't refer me for it to be checked.

I just finished the cylindrical bottle and am now using a teardrop shape bottle that is from France with an English label stuck on it - I’m wondering if this in part in response to everyone’s yellow cards etc. and if so, thank you all!

I’ve found I’m sensitive to too much gel, two pumps of the original teardrop bottle made me wired, unable to sleep, anxious, etc. (Without any HRT my insomnia and other symptoms were horrid as well, it’s been a balancing act). I’d settled in (10 months) on one pump just fine but when I was switched to the cylindrical bottle in December I found things were all going downhill so I ended up increasing the dose to two pumps. (My GP has always said to use 1 or 2 and I thought it could just be menopause progressing rather than the gel type).

Now back on the teardrop bottle and two pumps put me right back to the overly wired state, and changed my whole body temperature (normally I have cold flashes and sleep in layers of wool blankets, last night I was very warm, but not a hot flash, just warm all night). I’ll be going back to one pump from now on with these French bottles! In an entirely not scientific observational study of one person, it feels like the cylindrical bottle (with label that didn’t overlap) was maybe less than half as strong as the teardrop bottles!

I'll keep an eye out I have always had the cylindrical bottles but this time I got given one of the teardrop shaped ones out of the blue. Not tried it yet or had one before...

The labels on my latest ones are matt before they were always the shiny labels .....has anyone noticed any difference depending on the label?

I've had a headache last couple of days but don't if it is related to this or not...am keeping a record as I was fine with the shiny labelled ones...what a minefield this is🙄

Just wanted to up date you all on my sleep. Another mumsnet user suggested my racing heart might be due to histamine release. I had never heard of oestrogen causing this, but I tried an antihistamine and it has made such a difference to my sleep.

I am now sleeping through the night, and no longer waking up in a panic.

What a strange journey this menopause business is.

I seem to have aclimatized to the new oestrogen cylindrical pump, which is a relief, as I think it is the only oestrogel we are going to get in the UK from now on.

I just finished the cylindrical bottle and am now using a teardrop shape bottle that is from France with an English label stuck on it - I’m wondering if this in part in response to everyone’s yellow cards etc. and if so, thank you all!

Besins say on their website that the two different pump bottles are available in the UK. Obviously, it' s pot luck which a pharmacy has.

The flagon shape has been around for a long time.

I think if there is an issue with the newer bottles, it's the pump mechanism. I started to use mine today and it appears to pump out far less than the older bottles.

I'm going to keep a count of how many pumps I get out of the cylindrical bottle. If it's more than 64, there is an issue.

So far so good on the estro patches instead of rubbish gel. On patch 2 and I've had actual sleep for the first time in weeks. Head is so much clearer.
And no forgetting and having to lark about waiting for it to dry the. Get dressed.
Patch is like a tiny blister plaster. Amazing technology

@KeeeeeepDancing which parches have we you got? I switched to Ssndrena gel after the problem with Oestrogel but don’t seem to like it unfortunately.

Estradot 50 microgrammes
It's like magic

In case it helps anyone else - I gave up oestrogel a few months ago, due to all my symptoms returning after the packaging changed. I had been on 4 pumps for a long while. My doctor suggested I tried lenzetto spray instead. I was a bit sceptical because the dosage appeared lower, but it has been amazing and I feel normal again. It is also much quicker drying.

@Amireallyhere how many sprays do you do? I have been give it to try and was a bit sceptical too. But your post gives me hope! I will start it in next few days.