Sick of bastarding insomnia

[Floofydawg]

Been awake since 4.30am after a few hours of broken sleep. Been on HRT for 5 years - gel & utrogestan. 4 pumps. Age 53. I do everything right in terms of sleep hygiene - exercise, early nights, no caffeine in the afternoon, read to fall asleep. Etc etc - have read all the advice.

I'm just exhausted ALL of the bloody time. And I feel like all the joy has gone out of life. Can't get enthusiastic about things, feels like low level depression & anxiety. Work is also stressful and my boss has no menopause awareness and feel like I can't approach him about it.

Could I be on too high a dose of oestrogen? Do I need to go back to the dr's and ask for bloods?

Need to do something, can't carry on like this.

Cannabis Oil.
Not the ones you can buy in shops, but the proper prescription stuff. You have to pay for it privately though a clinic like Sapphire Medical Clinics, but it really works. You have to go through their doctors but if you can afford it, it fantastic stuff.

You need an oil with THC in it. When I have had problems that even amitriptyline couldn't help, the cannabis oil did.

No advice I’m afraid but just some support to say you’re not on your own. I lowered my HRT (oestrogen gel) in the hope that may help but it’s made matters much worse, I feel like a zombie! I have wasted £100’s on supplements/drugs, the only thing that does work for me is two cocodamol and an antihistamine together but I’m sure that’s not very good for me!
I’ve just ordered Magnesium Glycinate 3in1 from Nutrition Geeks, these were recommended on another thread so fingers crossed!

I wonder if a lot of the sleep problems during menopause is linked to issues with temperature regulation. My best sleep is when I am on holiday with air-conditioning regulating the temperature.

I really want one of those high tech beds that adjusts its temperature according to you body but don't have £1000s to spend on one 😕

I've had the same this year (coil and use 2 pumps of estrogel) and it definitely hasn't that effect on me. I don't normally have trouble falling asleep but always wake in the early hours and can't get back to sleep.

I'm very envious!

I've heard about testosterone gel but as of yet, it isn't licensed for HRT on the NHS.
I know a few women who have seen a private gynaecologist and are now on the gel but you're supposed to have regular testing to maintain testosterone levels which they don't all seem to be doing.

Firstly, massive sympathy, lack of sleep is absolutely the worst thing.
One thing that stood out for me in your op is 'no caffeine after lunchtime'. I can broadly get away with that (regular tea until midday, decaf tea from then on). But I know a number of friends find any caffeine at all trashes their sleep. That would include decaf coffee, which has as much caffeine I believe as regular non decaf tea. Apologies if you've tried this already....

Also if you're in the cycle of waking to pee, bladder training really does work & has helped me a lot

Also - do you drink alcohol? It's a bastard, but giving up for a while whenever my sleep gets rocky definitely helps me. These days I can't drink wine at all, & basically the only thing that is ok is up to a pint of max 4.5% beer (I'm suddenly a big fan of low alcohol beers & ciders as being better than nothing )

I literally have one coffee, at about 7.30am.

And as for giving up drinking....I think I'd rather not sleep!! (I don't drink every night before the one sherry at Christmas brigade have a go..)

I can really see that - my only consolation in my wine-less state is that I've got friends who've grown out the other side of it IYKWIM, so I'm hoping it's the menopause transition not permanent....

My personal 'everything's shit' prescription (I have to be in a bad way to resort to it) is a week of no caffeine, no alcohol, no junk food, outdoors exercise every day & bed by 10pm. It generally works as a reset & gets things back on track for me.

I've ditched alcohol completely, it really doesn't agree with me any more. I have a proper coffee in the morning and then have switched to decaff for the rest of the day.

Vitamin C is important for sleep too. Helps me fall back asleep. Without it, not a chance. Also, at bedtime I take a gel pad out of the freezer and put it at the bedside. When I wake up hot at 4:00 AM or so, it's unfrozen but still cold and safe to put it on my chest to cool me down and hopefully fall back to sleep.

@Sortmylifeout52 I'm on 50patches for oestrogen and take 100 of progesterone at night (I used to take it in the morning but got rather dizzy). I'm on 100 progesterone as I was having bleeds and scans showed a thick womb lining which is not ideal. Apparently with the progesterone squishy tablets you can insert vaginally as well.

I also take testosterone gel and my libido is back (utterly delightful that is!!).

It took a few weeks for it all to take effect but the sleep is so much better. I got to the stage that I was waking up suddenly at 3am. Once I started sleeping properly I restarted dreaming as well. It has been so long that I had forgotten that I hadn't been dreaming. It's a bloody revelation. I feel like a new person. My brain actually works.

When I had my recent scare and scan I was seriously contemplating having a full hysterectomy if it meant I could stay on HRT. It's that marked a change for me,

I know it's not like that for everyone though. What issues are you having?

I have had the most horrendous menopausal insomnia. After spending a fortune on sleep aids and tweaking my HRT , I think I've finally got it.
Estrodot 100mg
Mirena coil.
Trostan (1 pump every 3 days) prescribed by my GP (following a letter from the (so called) specialist.
Magnesium glycinate AND
Mirtazapine 7mg (rubbish for anxiety and depression but great for sleep).
I am 58 btw.

I've worked out that if only I didn't have to work I'd sleep much better. Had a few days off last week and there were no 5am racing thoughts and anxiety. Back at work this week and they're back with a vengeance.

I bought MagEnhance but it states it might give you headaches to begin with. I took two last night before bed then had shocking headache all night! I'm post surgery and really struggling with sleep. I'm not sure I want to risk another headache so I might try a bloody pointless hops and valerian tab later. Ffs.

As a lifelong insomniac whose problems are now compounded by perimenopause, I second a pp’s suggestion of a CBT for sleep course, like Sleepio (which, if you’re in the UK - I’m not - I believe you can get free on NHS prescription). I recently dabbled with a couple of similar free apps called Insomnia Coach and CBT-i which were designed for US veterans to use but are available to all. I didn’t do the whole programme but it was a good reminder of several basics I’d learnt with Sleepio years ago but which I was no longer respecting, so I’ve gone back to using my bedroom only for sleeping and sex, for example. It’s hard because I love reading in bed, but I make myself read downstairs and I only go to my bedroom when I feel sleepy (not just tired, actually sleepy) and try to sleep right away. I try to stay up until 11.30 whereas I used to head upstairs at 10.30, and when I wake up properly I get up (no lounging in bed snoozing at the weekend). It’s not perfect but it helps.

Another thing that isn’t perfect but helps is magnesium - I take one huge tablet of magnesium malate in the morning and 2 huge tablets of magnesium biglycinate at bedtime. (I had been taking magnesium for years because it helps my mood but learned from MN threads like this that I wasn’t taking enough to have an effect on my insomnia). Magnesium doesn’t guarantee me unbroken sleep but it does seem to make me feel less alert when I wake up in the middle of the night, increasing my chances of getting back to sleep without my brain starting to whir. Epsom salts in an evening bath help too. (I was interested to note that a pp says magnesium only works for her if taken with L-tryptophan and I’m going to give that a try).

I’m on HRT and have done the same as others here, upped the number of pumps of gel only for it to make things worse so I’m back at 2. I take my progesterone in the evening because it’s supposed to help with sleep but I honestly don’t find it does.

One last thing, just because it might help someone. I recently started following Dr Saira Hameed’s Full Diet (the aim is to keep blood sugar levels low and steady, so low carb, no sugar, no processed foods). She says that many of her patients who thought they had long-term sleeping problems sleep much better once they start to eat like this. I’ve certainly been sleeping better recently but it’s too soon for me to attribute that to how I’m eating with any degree of confidence. In any case, if anyone is interested there’s a book, The Full Diet.

I loathe Sleepio. I could write 10000 words on why it's horrible & wrong (for me, anyway). Basically it's a programme to make you hate your bedroom since you're punished constantly for daring to get in bed.

However other things that are free & easy enough I would consider.

That's why I'm not trying Mg or pills or whatever. Screw it. I'm tired of wasting my money.

The Full Diet:

Plus parts says Google: "no foods are off limits", That sounds good. Thank fig. the reason I hate Sleepio is the Zero Tolerance attitude towards people who fail to sleep on schedule.

Except Amazon review has these quotes which completely contradict that statement :

"... I cannot get past page 20, where bacon, sausages and hams are listed on the eat list and sweet potatoes and parsnips are not."

"The plan is structured around an "eating window" usually about eight hours each day during which one is allowed to eat freely to satisfy hunger.

This is basically a rehash of the book written and TV programme of Michael Moseley from a few years ago, the principles are the same inasmuch as carbs are verboten with an emphasis on fruit and veg with quality protein. "

"As one other reviewer said, this book is VERY similar to the one written by Michael Mosley a few years ago. It follows many of the basic principles of weight loss management like reducing/eliminating carbs and 'making choices' (willpower, in other words)."

"nothing new in the book. Low carb, high fat."

"It is intermittant fasting alongside cutting out carbs."

"basically a mixture of "window eating" and the Keto diet. "

Is all of that correct?

I could do window eating but am not crazy about low carb & high protein diet. I just don't like meat that much. I wouldnt' want to lose more than 4kg and am fine if I never lost it.

OP: yeah, I had the feeling that work is the issue for you, and no amount of magnesium or Vit D will fix that.

I just need to win the lottery and retire, then I'll be grand.

that's rubbish - I guess at least identifying that actually work is the real problem is maybe a bit helpful?

I do often wonder how many of the symptoms we all have are caused by work / family stress / caring responsibilities / general life shit which tends to fall hardest on middle aged women.

I'm 20 years past a surgical menopause and suffering the same. Just done a 12 hr day including 7 hrs driving on 4 hrs 😩😩
Totally feel your pain OP 😞

Me too OP, it is just exhausting, I know. I am so fed up of it. I started HRT helped some symptoms, but not others. Insomnia is bad. I can fall asleep quiet easily, but I can’t stay asleep. So I end up getting up, for a few hours in the middle of the night.

I sincerely believe that work and life stress have such a big impact on our health and sleep. Our minds just cannot switch off. Menopause probably makes everything worse but it is amazing for me when I go on holiday and completely switch off my sleep and energy levels are so much better.

I've been on HRT for 10 years, and early waking after 4-6 hours sleep (having previously slept 8 hours+) has been a big, unpleasant feature of menopause. I am mainly OK these days, mostly manage 7 hours and sometimes more, so there is light at the end of the tunnel.

It has always been much worse during work stress, waking with a panicky feeling. I think our ability to cope with stress goes down a lot during menopause.

I've tried countless supplements etc but here is what works for me. The Sleepio app sounds like hell, there is no way staying up later etc would have worked for me, it would have just led to even less hours sleep.

No drinking liquids for 1.5 before bed.
In bed by 9pm to read, lights out at 10pm.
Window open for breeze.
Gel filled 'pillows', Chillows, so if I wake up too hot I lie on one and cool down quickly.
An OTC Nytol now and again just to be able to get some rest and break the cycle.
Magnesium.
Low carb diet - this had a really big impact.
No alcohol (I'm particularly affected by it though)
No caffeine after midday.
Not much red meat, always seems to make me hot at night.
Breathing exercises if I wake up 3-5-8- breathing I think it's called.
Sometimes have half a teaspoon of cream of tartar in yoghurt before bed. It has potassium in it, I read somewhere that you need to balance your electrolytes a bit if you are taking magnesium, lack of potassium can give heart palpitations and give you a panicky feeling. This was one of my homemade cobbled together solutions though when desperate, but it seems to work OK.