In court - with alcy ex and his insane mum

[notsohotchic]

Just need some support or experienced info from anyone able to offer it!
In the midst of a court case (contact) started by my ex, who is an alcoholic. His Mum and step dad had supported my side of the dispute all the way. Until March time when they seemed to have a sudden change of heart. Now they have decided that my partner (whom they had previously voiced their approval of) is a controlling person and bad for the 3 children.
I have been worried about my ex -mother in laws mental health for some time (part due to her anguish at her sons problem/s) and in March she began to launch a full scale attack on me voicing disapprovals in long emails and texts about my child-rearing and just about every area of my life. This came as a complete shock as previously her and her husbands support had been very important in my life. They were having weekly contact with the children, but since this behaviour I have also had the children report disrespectful things being said to them about me and also interrogations. It was hard to decide but I said if exs Mum didn't agree to mediation they should no longer see the children. She said that mediation was 'bollocks'(shocking from a social worker). Now she and her husband (who loves and depends on her so much he goes along with anything) are joining in with the court case (have made themselves party). So I am in court with all 3 and solicitors next week. My legal aid was revoked so I have only a friend who can't speak! Worryingly, the grandparents suddenly seem to be hugely supportive of my ex, who is still drinking but allegedly trying to sort himself out. The ex is thrilled to have them on his side and is now suddenly voicing identical disapproval about my boyfriend and me. Apparently I do not care for my children and it is all the boyfriends fault. Very very sad about all this, not what I wanted for my children ever.

Why was your legal aid revoked? Is it because you earn too much or is it because of a negative CAFCASS report?

If the latter, I think you need to think carefully. Generally (there are always exceptions of course) they are pretty sensible and usually get a good handle on things.

It does seem odd that people who have previously supported you suddenly take another tack.

And how come his mother has been made a party?? What is going on? Is she seeking residence?

What exactly are the criticisms of your partner?

get a solicitor now! how old are kids? if they are young which i suspect they are i think that they want to go for a custody battle if they are trying to dicredit you otherwise they wouldnt be going down this route, be prepared for malious lies from them unfortunately courts dont seem to do whats right or just or in the best interests of the kids it seems to be about who can throw enough muck so it sticks do not think you will be listend to by the judge you wont they seem to think if you aint got a solicitor then you must be guilty do whatever you have to to protect your children even if it means taking out loans etc.

I could disagree more with kittycat.

Judges are not thick. They deal with these cases day in day out. They know if someone is an alcoholic and if someone is trying to throw mud. Because er, there is usually quite compelling evidence to show someone is/is not an alcoholic.

They don't just swallow hook line and sinker outrageous lies from biased relatives. That is why CAFCASS get involved because they are independent and will speak to the schools, get criminal record checks etc, etc.

If you don't specify the kind of allegations being made and the kind of proof they are relying on, it is difficult to know how to advise you.

I wouldn't necessarily go rushing to a solicitor however, especially if you won't get funding. It is very expensive. If they really are insane alcoholics, the Judge will understand that without you paying £200 per hour for the pleasure.

Hi spero, I am a f/t student and not entitled to I.s. during term time. We have cafcass interview on Monday. The worker I spoke to on the phone sounded helpful and supportive.
The grandmother wants a contact order of her own. This is being served to me AND her son, he tried to stop contact with her in the past due to abusive letters she sent him. At the time I thought he was being just as bad as her, I didn't see them. I supported and enabled their contact! A tangled web I know. The ex and his mother have always had an unhealthy relationship.
They say that my partner is a 'typical' controlling step Dad. He is outspoken, yes, but I make all decisions about house and children. So it is an insult to me if anything. They have no evidence to support it, its just neurotic obsession. They have barely spent any time with us all together. I don't think they will mention it in court but I will.

i couldnt disagree more with SPERO, having been involved with CAFCASS myself they do speak with the schools then often dismiss what they say and a CRC will only show convictions at court! i would also like to say that judges will let ep say there case with as much muck thrown as possible and usually after four court dates will they go for a fact finding hearing when only then you have to disprove your ep lies which is not always possible when they made it up in the first place. and i bet Op ex will turn up at court completely sober playing the doting father.
then its often a different judge than the time before and they dont read the case file like you would expoect either, they just read the last page on the file. Cafcass also dont check medical files with the gp or hopsital etc, co SO....![angry}

It sounds like everyone is getting very upset and emotional, which is understandable, but won't achieve anything but get you all stressed out.

Basically, unless adults with a close biological connection can be proved to be dangerous to children or pose a serious risk of danger, they and the children have a right to a relationship with each other, which the court will protect with contact orders.

If they are not seeking residence, the argument is about contact only. What are your objections to their father/his family having contact? If you say it isn't safe because he drinks, it can start off in contact centres (he won't be allowed in if drunk) and only move out when you can be reassured it is safe.

It sounds to me like his mum is panicking because she feels she is going to be pushed away from her grandchildren.

Is there any way you can try mediation? Court battles seem to do nothing but push people further into polarised and adversarial positions. Very rarely are people monsters, there are often two sides to every story and the only people getting seriously hurt are the children.

Gulp. At least the judge asked that my ex allow access to medical records last time. You are right though, he comes across as sober doting dad when it suits him.

kittycat, you sound as if you have had a horrible experience and I am sorry to hear that.

But I have worked in the family courts for 12 years, and that is not representative of my experience of what happens. Of 100s of CAFCASS officers I have dealt with, only 2 or 3 I felt were unprofessional and didn't have the right approach.

You can't just go into court and lie and get away with it. Allegations have to be supported by evidence. If you allege someone takes drugs, the court will ask for hair strand tests, if you allege violence there will be fact finding hearings etc.

Yes, directions hearings can be quick and disappointing, you might get a judge who doesn't know the case etc, but a final decision on contact and residence will not be made without proper consideration of the evidence.

A drunk cannot just turn up at court and claim sobriety. Get his medical records in, get a liver function test etc, etc. You cannot hide alcholism, if that is what it really is.

Yes, as I said, Spero I have suggested mediation several times and they refuse!

all im saying is op needs to get a solicitor now, maybe it is just a case that grandmother is procting her interests with the grandchildren but filling at court rather than negoting with the PWC indicates a more sinister and controlling move.

judges do not like it when you come to court without a solictor and often think you are guilty of the applicants statemnets otherwise you would have produced a barrister to disclaim these points.

Ok, that makes them the twats then.

You have just got to stay calm and reasonable and not get sucked in.

Don't agree to contact if you have serious concerns it is not safe. If he won't disclose his medical records or agree to tests, the court will draw its own conclusions.

Judges don't give a damn if you have a lawyer or not! it only matters if a)you have sacked your legal team because they have given you advice you don't want to hear or b) you have lost public funding because CAFCASS have recommended an order which you want to fight

Litigants in person are more and more common as legal aid is cut back. Judges are almost always courteous and understanding. It is certainly not their assumption that no lawyer=no case.

spero you have just emphasised my point op needs a solicitor1 how is she expected to with all this on her own. she could potentially lose cutody of her children, espicaaly if they wont go for mediation alarm bells are ringing here and op needs to be aware of this.

I am worried that the exs mother is undermining my childrens trust in me as a Mother, at a time when I am the only stable constant person in their lives. I also know that her husband and her other son and daughter cannot confront her honestly and have been worried about her health mental and physical for some time. In her daughters word she's 'crackers' and wouldn't have as much contact with their sons. (this was an unpleasant recent revelation to me, I had no idea exs sister felt this way!) Don't feel too happy about going for the jugular about my exs mums health but I may have no choice. As I was very fond of her and her husband this is awful.

kittycat, I know you have had a horrible experience, but you will panick the op.

The courts WILL NOT give residence of children to a grandmother on a load of half baked allegations and lies.

The op is their primary carer, I assume they have lived with her all their life. She seems to have strong views that her ex is an alcholic which I assume is a view with some substance and not just a malicious allegation.

I don't think alarm bells are ringing at all, unless you serously believe and want the op to believe that the courts are simply utterly corrupt, which is not the case, whatever John Hemmings and the Daily Mail want you to think.

People get very emotional about these issues, as well they might. They say and do outrageous things. But for a court to make a finding there has to be evidence. If the worst they can say is that step father is 'controlling' this will go absolutely no where.

Op - you need a friend with you to take notes of what is said. Thus, if any decision is made which you do feel is wrong, you can go to a lawyer urgently or get advice from a CAB.

But I honestly don't think you have any thing to worry about. Just try and stay calm, state your case. Say you have offered mediation and (presumably) would be willing to try again.

Saying goodnight for now, will check back in tomorrow!

Judges are always courteous and understanding! some are some are not! my experience has been different from yours no doubt by all this but judges are not always fair and they take little notice of litigants in person are always refer to the barristers present. cafcass vsist you and ep and talk with the children then make a report on THIER findings BUT sometimes judges CHOOSE not to go along with the report !

Nor do you have to 'go for the jugular' with his mum! you just say, you have been concerned about her behaviour around your children, you feel she is undermining you, this is obviously not in their interests, so could she please stop or you won't support direct contact.

Just FYI - if a judge does not follow a CAFCASS report he/she has to explain very clearly and fully why not. A failure to do this will give you almost automatic grounds of appeal. So most judges are very careful to explain themselves.

AHH HARD EVIDENCE! YOUR WORD AGAINT THIERS same old thing beacuse no one listens to the children when they say something has happened no one listens to the mother when she says something has happned no you have to PROOVE that something has happened by an independant witness. other wise its yor word against thiers so with no proof you are made out to be lying about it.
Op needs a solicitor!

Yes i know that they have to explain themselves or risk grounds for appeal but the point is they CAN and lets be honest the judge dont interview or see the children or ask them himself now does he? i am not trying to panic the op just to infrom her that just because she thinks his mother is (as Above)its unlikely the court/judge will take any notice of her views without hard proof its not enough just to think ill be ok at court cos i havent done anything wrong.

of course people listen to children. But listening and taking seriously is not the same as automatically believing.

Children can and do say things because they have been influenced to say things.

You don't need independent witnesses to prove something happened, but the more serious the allegation, the more likely it is that the court will need something other than just your word for it.

For eg, if you say a child has been physically abused there is often physical evidence, bruises, trips to hospital etc.

I can't comment on what happened to you as I don't know your case.

But I hope the OP will be reassured by my experiences as a family lawyer, acting for mothers, fathers, grandparents and local authorities.

I don't think she needs a solicitor. Anyway, if the system is as crap and corrupt as you allege, what earthly good would a solicitor do her??

Also, FYI, recent guidelines have been published on judges seeing the children. The move is to encourage judges to speak directly to children if they are old enough and if they want to. Any child over 12 for eg who asks to speak to the judge ought to be able to.

As you claim to be a faimily laywer, but are you a barrister that attends court reguarly or a solicitor that sits in her office all day giving out usless information.

FYI in the Uk its a solictor not a lawyer!