Should my son see his Mum?

[dad2chchalk]

Hi, newbie Dad here, so bear with me....V long story short..Oct 08, my sons Mum and I separate. Son (then 2.25) goes to live with her. May 09, he reports (physical) abuse to me, which I had suspected. Mum denies it, I chastise him for telling tales. Oct 09, maternal Grandmother reports further abuse (biting etc.) to GP. Soc Services called, I apply for and am granted Prohibitive Steps/Residency Order. Nov 09, Mum admitted to Mental Hosp. Early 2010, she is sadly disagnosed with a terminal illness (Early Onset). I haven't seen her since Nov 09, but we speak on a daily basis, she calls 20+ times most days, mainly nonsensical ramblings. However, my son stays at his maternal Grandmothers 2 or 3 nights a week, to allow me to try and keep my business going. On these nights, he is taken to see his Mum, in the Mental Hospital. I am very worried about the long term effects this may be having on him. By the same token, I don't want him to resent me in future years for not allowing him to see her. Does anyone have any experience of anything similar? I've asked for advice from GP/health Visitor, who both shrugged their shoulders and said "Your Call". Thanks!!!

The setting my not be ideal but i would have thought your ds would be safe from harm. Have you still got a SW involved with you? They might be able to give you some advice on it.

I'm 99.99% sure he is safe from physical harm; the set up is (I'm told), away from the 'wards', with CCTV etc. etc. I just worry so much about the psychological impact this might be happening. I have a friend who used to visit his (then mentally ill) Mum when he was a toddler, and this is his earliest childhood memory. I don't want to deny my DS contact with his Mum, given that she will not live to see 40. I'll try his SW again, she initially referred me back to his GP!

can you ask the hospital what the set up is? is it in a play room?

what does he say about the visits to mum?

he is about three years old right? you could do some role play with dolls to see how he describes the visits?

if you worried you could ask GP to refer to family therapist . i would also speak to child bereavement charities about preparing him eg
www.winstonswish.org.uk/

i think so long as the rest of his life is secure and loving then he should be fine in long term but may need some specialist help someone to talk to.

it sounds like the HV, SW are out of their depths and you need someone with relevant experience/knowledge of these circumstances - but the hospital must have linked social workers who can advise and help. ask the hospital to give you some names - they would ahve family liason/specialist social workers?

ther are two issues here -one - the MH issues and 2 the future bereavement issue. both he is going to need help and support with.... and you.

That must be an extremely tough situation to try to work out. You have my sympathies.

My gut feeling is that your DS should see his mum provided that he's safe and that it does not cause him distress.

Do you talk about his mum to your DS much? Would it be possible for you to take DS to see his mum, at least once or twice? You'd get a chance to see how DS reacts to her as well as possibly giving you a chance to explain to him why she is the way she is.

The most absolute most crucial thing for your DS to realise is that if she behaves badly towards him it is not his fault. This is something that you will have to reassure him about for a long time to come.

Firstly, thank you. The room they meet in at the hospital is described as a 'family' room. No beds, no meds, no staff in uniform. My DS says only that his Mommys smokes too much when he visits. She has an attention span of less than a minute. They have a quick cuddle and I think that's as much as he gets. One of the behaviour patterns leading up to her admission to the hospital and the subsequent diagnosis, was she was very innattentive and dismissive of him. I'm worried that has worsened. What I really want to do is to be a fly on the wall at one of these visits. Her parents tell me it's all OK at the hospital, but when I ask for details they get very, very defensive.

I've looked at the link you sent, and that looks like a really really good place to start the preparation for what is sure to be a difficult few years. I agree with you - the professionals are a bit out of their depth I think. I will call the hospital, but I'm not sure they will speak to me? I'm not directly involved. Will let you know!! Thanks again xx

FWIW I was three when my mum died (no mental issues though but she did get pretty confused towards the end apparently) - I have no memories of her at all and I wish I did. Even if they were not great at least I'd 'know who she was'. And I did visit her in hospital - I just don't remember any of it.

It would be great if you could go with him once or twice so he knows he can talk to you about it.

Good luck, its a very tough situtation but great that he has you and his maternal GPs to support him.

i think as his dad you ARE directly ionvolved because you will need to pick up the pieces...i think also as river said, creating photos, memory boxes etc would be good way forward - so later he will know who his mother was (even if some memories will be hazy/negative "she smokes too much".) he will need to know - that he had a mother who loved him but was very sick.... later he will have to answer questions in school, etc eg when they do family trees, are asked to draw family picture, make cards for mothers day, etc and so on.

so you and the GPs will be very important in this. there is now - when she is alive and visits are controlled and different to "normal2 situaiton - and there will be later on when she is dead.... let us not beat about the bush!

maybe asking GP to refer you to a family therapist might be helpful, so you and son could go and talk? perhaps jsut one an individual session for yourself with trained child psychologist - to talk about strategies for you to talk to him about everything - and later if he needs play therapy etc...but maybe also winstons wish could advise on that too.

first GPs meaning grand parents...second GP meaning gp as in family doctor...may depend where you are in UK as to what family therapy services available

What a sad situation.

What does your gut tell you?

If it were me, I'd ask myself what my son is getting out of this time. Thankfully he's very young so chances are he will either not rememeber at all or if he does they will be very vague memories.

If his mum only has an attention span of a minute, she's not going to be able to spend any quality time with her. In which case what is the point of the visit?

Is it better therefore to not visit and save your son from the stress of the visit and let him just live with the thoughts that his mum died from being ill?

At the end of the day, the buck stops with you now. I honestly don't think there is a right or wrong answer. Only shades of grey. You are the one who the buck stops with, no-one else. I've had to make those sorts of calls a couple of times in my life. In those situations, what I do is choose the option which will let me sleep at night the best.

@niceguy2 - most of me wants to say this isn't benefitting anybody, least of all my son, who is obviously my price concern. But his (maternal) Grandmother insists that these visits do them both good. I guess I have to force the issue and be bloody minded about wanting to be PRESENT at a visit.

@cestlavielife - the thought of him sitting in a classroom full of excited 4 and 5 year olds, making Mothers Day cards made my heart sink. I can see his little face now. It makes me realise I have to do something NOW.

@riverofsleep - thank you, you're telling me what I wanted to hear, that I HAVE to accompany him at least once....

Thank you all xx

You know, you sound like a great guy, and all you can do is make the decision you believe to be right for now.
It is impossible to predict how your ds will be effected by this situation in the future. All you can do is go with your gut on this, I fear.

You absolutely must go on a visit. It sounds like the maternal grandparents may be more concerned with the benefits for their daughter rather than your ds.

Good luck

Thank you, thank you, for echoing what is bouncing around in my head. They are (understandably?) wanting to do whatever they can for their daughter, whatever the cost. I will have this very difficult conversation ASAP x

I think it's really important that he does get to see his mum, as in the future, she won't be there to see at all, and the only memories he will have will be these. They might not be the greatest memories, but you'd be suprised how resilient children are about these things.

I suppose the way I think about it is if she had a severe physical impairment that stopped her being able to interact with your son, you'd still want him to be able to go and see her ?

FWIW, my grandmother was severely mentally ill from the time my dad was born, and spent the rest of her life in and out of hospital, the longest stretch being when my aunt was born. Dad used to visit her in hospital (and this wasn't a nice family room either), and I asked him about how he felt about seeing her when she was so ill, and in such a rubbish place. He says that it was his mum, and though she wasn't herself, he loved to see her, and know that she was OK.

I think going with him occasionally so that you can talk about it as a normal part of your lives, and see for yourself how things are would be really important

Your right mate. You need to go, see what its like there, see what she's like and make a decision once you have all the facts.

If grandma is reluctant to have you there then I'd say that is a big red flag. Why does she not want you there? What is it she doesn't want you to see?

Seems everyone agrees I need to go myself!

She (Grandma) claims her daughter doesn't want anyone to see her - she's gained weight and got some facial "fur" - she was always very very proud of her looks etc...

I don't buy this, personally. There has to be more to it. I watched her give birth. I cleaned up after her when she was sick, many times. And the way she is mentally means she probably couldn't give a toss what she looks like

Let's see what Grandma says when I ask her on Sunday....

Cheers all

hi dad2chchalk

i am a sw. tbh this case would see me a bit out of my depth as it is quite unusual but ok here goes...ime and backed up by plenty of research, when children are separated from a parent going through drug/alcohol rehab, it is better for the child to witness some/all of this process. its more difficult to rebuild trust if the healing/recovery is done behind closed doors iyswim. i know from your op that there is no recovery in the horizen though.

imo defintely go along and see what goes on and consider going again from time to time. ds should have space to talk about this experience and maybe it would help if you were familiar with what the visits are like.

if you feel uncomfortable about what you have seen then dont be scared to renegotiate with the grandparents. reducing the visits (am assuming its a few times a week??) woudln't be unreasonable as long as you maintain a routine for ds and for mum/gparents. if/when mum deteriorates and or ds is unhappy to go then negotiate again.

gosh, what a horrid situation. you have my sympathies.

my immediate thought is you have to do what is right for your DS, but need to be careful not to upset GPs seeing as they are clearly such an important part of your support network now and will be when DS's mum dies. Perhaps going every night he is with them is a bit much, but you'd be happy with once a week, and perhaps you also need to revise the visiting schedule if things change as her health deteriorates.

I think you do need to go to a visit - you need to see whether your DS and his mum both get something out of these visits, because it may be that his GPs say that they do when actually maybe it is really them that benefit from these visits - seeing their DD and DGS together. So you need to see it with your own eyes to see if you can separate what really happens from the GPs view of it IYSWIM.

And I do think you need specialist help with this, rather than struggling to manage such a difficult situation yourself.

You might want to make sure your DS has lots of physical memories of his mum around all the time so even if you cut down on the visits then it is clear to him and his GPs that you are not cutting down on how central she is to his life - perhaps a lovely picture of her in his room of when she was healthier, perhaps with him when he was a baby. Make it clear to GPs that you still want them to talk to him about her, even if you cut visits, so he gets a sense of her as she was not just as she is now etc. That might then help them too if they are given the chance to remember her as she was and focus on more than just this very sad ending.

Best wishes to you and your DS

am wondering if they can arrange for a visit to be done in a room with a two way mirror? so you dont need to be in the room with them?

or if a SW or psychologist could arrange a video of a visit and watch it with you?

So, so sad for your little boy (and for you), but you sound like you're willing to face up to the hard stuff for his sake and that makes me think he will be OK.

You've had good advice here that I can't really add to, just wanted to say good luck.

What an awful double whammy you and your son have to deal with. Life throws us horrible horrible illnesses. Mental Illness is double hard due to taboos in society.

My brother suffers with Paranoid Schizophrenia. I was a teenage visiting him in the wards. My younger brother just a tot.

What helped us, as children, was that my mother refused to feel any stigma. She read loads and explained that my brother has an illness, he is not choosing to be difficult.

But that said, sometimes we had to protected from my brothers illness, especially when we were young, or he was very ill.

I do feel you need to go and witness the contact yourself and assess it. Grandmother needs to understand this. You have to witness what your son is experiencing when they meet, so you can work out what support he needs. And also, sometimes his mother might be sicker than on other days - and contact might be pointless. Who is judging the quality of contact?

What a sad situation.
Pippinjo's post was really good. I think your son does need to see his mother for as long as he can. Don't worry about what kind of memories he will have of her, because I think a child's main concern is whether his mother wanted to see him or not. And if she does, and he is in no danger, I don't really think you should stop it (unless you start to see some bad repercussions from the visits).
At least your son has you and that will stand him in good stead.

dad2chchalk - if there is any chance that your sons Mum might get upset if you visit, maybe it would be best for you to go on your own first to see how she is.

I think for your sons sake it would be good for him to see you and her being friendly, if this is at all possible - even if it's all coming from you, so that when he's older if he remembers her, he remembers you all being there and a sense of family.

If you visit her and it all goes pear shaped - would it be possible for you to watch a couple of sessions on the CCTV that's in operation?

How much longer do you expect her to be around for?

I really feel for you, it sounds like an awful situation.

I agree with Pippinjo about getting some photos of your little son and his mum, and letting him continue to visit her (and also that you should visit with him). Children can handle reality as long as there's no threat to them and they can talk about it or express their feelings about it, whether directly or obliquely. It's mysteries and absences and silences that cause the most distress.

(The grandparents do sound as if they are trying to do the right thing with your DS, if they reported the abuse and are involved in his life.)

Thank you all so much for your help and advice, I am genuinely overwhelmed by it all. My friends and family are really struggling to know what to do/say, so this is all so helpful for me.

The good news, is that mom and grandparents have agreed that we can all go on a joint visit this evening. When I told my son this his face lit up and it was as much as I could do to to hold it together. So, lets hope this a step in the right direction.

Again, thank you all so much - I will update this post when I've made the visit!