Expected situation - still not sure how to handle.

[ambientcoast]

Gah... reading all these threads about split families is so sad. I appreciate that sometimes it's in the best interests to split because of abuse/violence etc, but a lot of the time it really isn't necessary - or at least it's surely worth the effort to do everything you can to make things work so your kids keep the family they deserve.

Anyway, my backstory - wife very suddenly and with no good/rational reason (to me anyway) decided to leave a couple of months ago, and she moved out. She actually did this once before about 4 years ago for a period of 4 months or so, and that time she left the kids at home with me.

This time around the kids are aged 8 and 5, however she's decided that she wants them with her half the week. We have an arrangement and it's basically 50/50, with me having them slightly more.

Now, she's never been great with the kids. I know it, the kids know it, my family know it, her family know it, our mutual friends know it, casual bloody observers know it. The only people who don't know it are HER, and all of her new buddies at work who've never met me or our friends or our families, and to who she's now portraying herself as the best mother in the world. Oh, and that she's extremely 'brave' for doing all this. Jeez.

Right, anyway... the problem is that while the kids are with me, they're great - until they remember that their mum is coming to pick them up for 3 or 4 nights. And then they (especially our 8yo, although our 5yo has also said this morning that she doesn't want to go) get really vocal and teary about not wanting to go, and that they'd much rather stay with me. Reasons stretch from the fact that it's boring and they don't do anything, to that 'mum just works on her computer all the time' - I know that she's not actually working... this is what she says to the kids when she's on Facebook, etc.

I've got nothing against them going to stay with their mum (as much as it kills me), but when it's upsetting them like this then I feel that in the not too distant future, I might need to step in somewhere...

...somehow.

Help.

it's not for you to judge whether your wife had a good reason to end the relationship. She certainly doesn't need a rational reason, and the fact that you seem to think she needs one makes me sympathise with her. You are judging her and finding her lacking across the board really, and yet, you are condemning her for ending a relationship with a man who quite clearly doesn't love her or even respect her! and you see no irony there. It was entirely her prerogative to end the relationship.

It is hard to call time on a bad relationship. I know that from first hand experience. You can't bear that other people recognise that it's hard. People don't just walk out the door at the first sign of trouble. They become ground down after years and years of reality and feeling paralysed in a lonely and unfulfilling relationship, so wake up and smell the coffee, yes your wife was brave to be the one to face up to it and end the relationship. You sound as though you regard her desire to end the relationship as something that should be justified. She needs a 'good case' to end the relationship!!! Well, no, she doesn't. She should realise that normal people split up when things are awful.

It is of no concern to you what her friends think. You shouldn't try to control what her friends and family think of your breakup. It is outside of your control, and other people ARE entitled to their own perspective. My controlling x would tell anybody who'd listen that I was dramatic, lazy, selfish, mentally ill blah blah blah. He truly believes it and I expect his entire family do as well. But I will shrug and let them think that. Luckily with every passing day their opinions of me mean less and less and less. Until their opinions of me are on a parr with a total stranger, who might pass you on the street.

You sound like you might benefit from a bit of counselling if you don't mind my saying so. I recognise a lot of my x in you. Do you have anybody around you to offer a little objectivity and perspective?? I know my x didn't. He only had his mother working him UP, not calming him down. After I left she would feed his erroneous beliefs that I'd only left because I was lazy and selfish. It did him no good in the long run to have somebody just agreeing with his bitter interpretation of events.

Good luck. I hope you can let your x go and wish her well. Why would you not? Ask yourself that.

sigh

"My controlling x would tell anybody who'd listen that I was dramatic, lazy, selfish, mentally ill blah blah blah. He truly believes it and I expect his entire family do as well."

Just had another thought: after reading your reply, I kind of believe it too.

Heh.

Life sucks.............and we have a really simillar situation. The whole thing is made doubly hard by the fact that the courts still seem to favour the mum over the dad.

We hate the situation we are in but we've been in it for 9 years now.Social services recommended we have custody but the courts over ruled it.

All I can say is keep ranting on here so that your kids get the best of you. They will have to deal with their mum in the best way possible. When they are teenagers they will be able to decide not to see her, and no court will over ride their wishes.

Just keep being a great dad.

the kids are spending over half their time with you anyway, so the impact of their mother is going to be seriously diluted.

The first part of your OP is really quite bizarre. Why did your wife leave?

You sounds unrelentingly negative and critical of her. What are her good points? What did you love about her?

If your DC are picking up on your opinions of your wife and her parenting skills, it would be normal for them to be unsettled. The hardest thing about a relationship break up is separating out all our hurt feelings from the need to parent our children as well as we can. I find it very hard, but I make a point of focusing on my DD's Dad's good points, it can't be black and white.

you know what, ambient, you'd have been better off pretending to be a woman.

Mumsnet has been very anti man lately, sorry

Now, don't get me wrong. I want them to see her. And I want her to see them.

What I don't want is my kids getting upset because they 'have to' go and stay with her when they don't particularly enjoy it. That's not doing anyone any good - especially the kids.

Am I wrong in thinking this? As someone who has been the kids' primary carer for a lot of years now, I need to keep an eye on the kids and look out for them. This is a difficult time for everyone.

In the past, I've suggested we both go to parenting classes (I'd go to support her), but she's never even been interested in that.

So, in a few weeks down the line when I 'may' have to approach this subject with her, what's the best way to do it? Suggest that she reduces the amount of time they go to her/

Maggie00 - Ignore my reply above. I appreciate you taking the time to write but you really have grasped the wrong end of the stick here. You also tried answering a question I didn't even ask. That actually speaks volumes about where your head is really at.

For the record, I'd have died for my wife and family and until recently I still would have. She knew that. Only I've since discovered a few things about the marriage and the relationship that have made me rethink a lot of that.

Also for the record, I have her own family contacting me to ask what's going on as they're not getting anything from her. Her mum is telling me that her behaviour is strange. Our mutual friends don't have a clue about what's going on - they thought our relationship was as strong as I thought it was.

Plus, the only mutual friends who aren't shocked and confused by this are - I'm guessing - the people she works with, and I don't know them - and they don't know me. I can hardly control what they think - I've never met them as she's kept that part of her life pretty separate recently.

I'm just disappointed that she's obviously kept her feelings/suffering/whatever locked up inside her own head, instead of talking to me about it and it's gotten so bad (again, inside her pwn head) that she's left herself with only one option - to leave.

To tell you the truth, it's absolutely devastated me.

So what is the problem then Ambien? is the problem that the rest of the World doesn't think as badly of your wife as you think they ought to?

As for mumsnet being anti man, i'm not anti man, but there are several red flags in your post, and anybody with any experience of a controlling relationship would recognise. The vast majority of male posters on mumsnet don't set alarm bells ringing, but this post did.

Ambien, I can live with my x's perception of me. That's the whole point which you have missed. They are entitled to their opinion of me and I will not waste energy trying to reason with them. It would be a waste of time, they will never acknowledge that I had the right to leave their son. I will always be the bad guy in their eyes. But I don't need their blessing or their approval. I just needed to get away from their controlling abusive son/brother.

You should delete each other as friends on facebook. There is no way you should be garnering information about each other through facebook.

Why have you chosen not to reply to my question about what you think your ex's good qualities are?

FWIW I don't care if you are male or female - it's the absolutism of your stance that unsettles me. For example, you'd go to parenting classes to support her; is there really nothing you can learn about being a better parent?

My advice would be to deal with what you can control.

When the children are with you they have a great time so keep it up.

Even if you were still 'with' their mum she would probably do things with the children that you would disagree with.You can't change the fact that she is their mum and they should spend time with her.

But I can appreciate it is really hard, my husband feels his daughter from his first marriage gets a really bad deal from his x.

Same here QueenofWhatever, I don't care whether the poster is male or female.

Even reading between the palpable bitterness lines of the poster's OP, the children's mother is now co-parenting their children and they split up some time ago. That's good right???

In his first post he is clearly rankled that she is 'portraying herself as a good mother'. How does one do that? By being a good mother perhaps?

He has now reined in his obvious contempt, exasperation and lack of respect for his x and her decision to end the relationship. But I think the original post is the true barometre of his feelings.

People will try to help the OP but he'll dismiss them as man-haters who are in a bad place, or read too many magazines, or ...... whatever.

Reasons for her leaving include (her words) that she 'cant do the family thing', that she 'cant do the mum thing', and that she needs to 'get her life back'.

Yes, I'm aware that my negativity and criticism are coming through. I understand that relationships break down and that marriages don't work. I'd just have expected (hoped?) there to be some period of talking things through first - rather than a sudden decision to leave, literally the day after we were booking a family holiday.

I honestly loved her with everything I had. We had the same dreams, tastes, outlook, sense of humour, future plans, etc, etc. Only I'm now slowly discovering that she probably wasn't really being truthful about much of this all along.

At the end of the day, I think she's found herself in this family situation and genuinely can't cope with the amount of giving and sacrificing that it takes to make this work.

I think she's tried her hardest, I really do, but she just can't do it. My opinion, in lieu of anything else to go on.

However, I've also discovered that she's kept some shady financial stuff from me amongst other things, and that the way she's handled this breakup (threatening to disappear with the kids, trying to blackmail me for money, when she wasn't getting what she wanted) hasn't done her any favours. She knows how to push my buttons - and it almost always involves the kids.

Maggie00 - You're still answering the wrong question. I want to know what the best way of approaching my wife would be if I didn't think it was in the kids' best interests to spend as much time there.

I'll answer you though. She deleted me on Facebook when she left - along with the majority of her mutual friends who have all come to me to ask what happened. I've had very little contact with her for well over a month now and our friends are now making their own minds up as to their opinions of her - and some are even telling me (unprompted) that they've been suspicious of her for a while now. This wasn't mentioned before because to anyone on the outside, we really did have a strong relationship. So, all I've really shared with people - when asked - are facts. Nothing more, nothing less.

Plus, I've since had other mutual friends telling me that she's been posting on Facebook that she's 'losing her voice because she's shouting at the kids so much'. Of course, I'm not seeing this because we've blocked each other, but as someone who's done most of the childcare until now, and as someone who knows their kids 100% inside out, how do you think that makes me feel?

And here's something else... last time she left, her own mother actually told me that I would be better off without her. Blinded by love and desperate to get my family back together, I completely ignored that advice and did everything I could to win her back. So yes, I'm probably partly to blame.

But after doing a LOT of reflection this time round, I can now see how - and where - we were very, very mismatched. Me: a giver/fixer/enabler. Her: just the opposite, really.

To be honest, I actually think I've been controlled in this relationship and I'm only now seeing the effects of that. And yes, it hurts, and it also sometimes comes out in the way I speak about her, as I slowly rediscover myself and who I am. I'm sure that this will lessen over time as I move on, but maybe that's where you're seeing those red flags?

I do wish her well. I would eventually like to become friends as I now think she would have made a much better friend (to me at least) than a wife.

However, right now, my ultimate focus is now on my children. Hence my original question.

I'm not answering the wrong question. I think you're still too close to the middle of the fall-out to realise that though. Your children's situation has already reached a better resolution than many other children from divorced families. You are co-parenting. So, well done. But you post a question about them being bored at her house. You believe she is a terrible mother and I'm sure it is a circular self-feeding notion. I wonder if your children are telling you they'e bored at her house, when really it's not as bad as they make it sound.

Give them permission to love their mother and to welcome her back in to their lives. They shouldn't feel that by slagging off their mother they are inadvertently secretly pleasing you.

good luck with the co-parenting. The situation has actually turned out WELL and I think you will be able to see that in time.

No wonderful advice here as I don't have experience of your situation, but just wanted to say that you have my total sympathy. There's nothing worse than the thought that your dcs don't get the level care and attention that they deserve, and I can imagine that makes you feel terrible.

What I would say is that for as long as you keep giving them all of your whole-hearted love, you are making sure that they always feel secure and attached, and if that is for more than 50% of the week, that can counteract a lot of what they might feel for the rest of the time. Many children grow up in homes where the parents are together but one is a more negative influence on them, all of the time. Better that they have excellent quality time with you and no dilution or distraction from that for such a good proportion of their week.

Also, last point is that (and of course I have no idea how the reality is in your ex's home), children can sometimes dramatise things at times when they're about to leave, e.g. I used to say that I hated being at the childminder's house, and please don't leave me, etc., and actually it wasn't that bad, I just preferred being with mum and dad instead. I hope that doesn't sound like I'm trivialising, iyswim. I hope the situation improves for you.

Ambient
Your situation you're describing is quite similar to another poster on here, are you aware of that and have you read it?

QueenOfWhatever - really sorry, I didn't see your post. My wife's good qualities? She's tall, sexy, funny, smart, confident, outgoing, great sense of humour, amazing hair, we could finish each others' sentences, I love her crooked little smile... now I could go on for a while here, but what would be the point?

She also used to call me almost every day from work and at the end of the call she'd tell me she loved me. She'd give me a kiss and hug before she left for work, and when she came in, too.

We were affectionate with each other in public - we'd hold hands, kiss, etc, etc. And this went on right up to the Monday evening she decided to end it. Really. That's what I'm dealing with.

The flip side of that is that at home, she was completely different - sitting on her laptop ALL the time, constantly complaining about the laundry, the dishes, the housework, the kids' toys, the kids' behaviour, even though I did 99% of all this, whilst also doing all of the childcare, and whilst also working from home. I also cooked for us virtually every night.

So there were two very different sides to our relationship which in all honesty has really screwed me up. There was enough affection and good times to make me think things were OK, but the lack of other important stuff - like her inability to talk about how she was feeling - threw lots of red flags for me. It's been tough. Really tough.

Lots of people have also said that if we hadn't had kids, then we'd probably still be pretty solid as a couple. It's just that whole home/family life thing she seems to have trouble with. Again, mutual friends have told me since our break up that it always seemed like she wanted to be able to tell people she has a family and to be able to show the kids off (they are good looking kids!) but when it comes to dealing with the tougher stuff, she doesn't have what it takes.

Stupidly though, I'd probably still take her back in a second and I still spend a good chunk of my day hoping for that phone call or knock on the door. She likely knows I feel like this. I've told people I feel like this, rather than knocking her. Her family knows I feel like this. I don't really want to feel like this though, as I understand that these are pretty normal feelings from someone who has been subjected to some degree of emotional abuse. I also understand that I do deserve better in my life.

And by the way, we only split up about 2 months ago, so yep, this is all still so raw. (

Thanks for some of the later comments there - yes, I had a tough time watching the kids leave this morning and I know they probably still need time to settle down. At the minute, yes, I agree that it is a good situation, relatively speaking. I just have niggling doubts in the back of my mind about exactly what is happening in her flat when the kids are there.

Also, I never talk down about their mum, or dissuade them to go. I actively encourage them to go and tell them that she really wants to see them, etc, and I try to make it seem exciting for them. But then I feel like I'm somehow not being truthful with them because all they appear to end up doing is amusing themselves while they're there.

Still, I think above everything else, regardless of who's been at fault, I just miss having my family intact - even if it wasn't perfect. The sense and pain of the loss is f**king acute. More than that, I feel terrible that the kids will miss out on that, too. Passing them between houses just feels wrong on every possible level, but as my friends and family keep telling me, I'll get used to it as just another way of life.

One point above does sit well with me though - that if I can make my place a grounded, happy, peaceful, loving place to be, then the time they spend here will cancel out any of the negativity they see at her place. I could probably live with that idea, given time.

It's not ideal, but it's life I guess.

Oh, I forgot to mention... there's actually a bit of 'role reversal' going on here, too. Not sure whether I'm ashamed to admit this or not. I know I shouldn't be.

When we met, I was actually pretty successful at what I do and was earning very good money. She left her (also good) job to move away from where she lived and in with me, and got another excellent job straight away.

Then, by the time we'd had our second kiddo, I'd switched to a self-employed role doing the same job, but working from home so I could spend more time with my family. She'd already given up her work by then. However, it ended up that I focused less and less on my work mainly because I had to focus more and more of the childcare - partly because I think she struggled being at home and away from the social aspect of work.

So she took another pretty good job and I continued to do the childcare and worked part time. Fast forward to a few weeks ago and one of the things that also came out was that I wasn't earning enough money, even though we were actually pretty comfortable.

However, if I had a busy period with work and fell behind with the housework, I'd get it in the neck because not all the housework had been done. Yet, if I'd had a quiet spot with work and had stayed on top of the housework, I'd get flak because I hadn't worked and made money.

Oh, and her stance throughout all this was 'why should I have to do the housework when I've been out at work all week'.

So in that respect, if you switch the situation around, imagine a man suddenly leaving his wife because - even though she does most of the housework and cooking and all of the childcare, whist also working part time - he's decided that he's not happy, partly because she doesn't make enough money. Then imagine that man taking the kids away for half of the week when he's not really had anything to do with childcare, etc, for years.

Also, imagine during all this that man telling you that he shouldn't have to do any housework because he's been at work all week. How would that make you feel?

I know some of you are possibly already in this position, but put yourself there if you're not. Would the wife have the right to be a bit miffed about all of this, and would it probably come out in the way she speaks about her ex husband? I think so.

The roles have been switched, and there are a few other complicating factors that I haven't yet mentioned, but that's where I am. I'm struggling financially to maintain a household because of her actions (while she appears to be comfortable) - and I'm still not entirely sure what part I played in all of this.

It's like I've just had my whole world suddenly pulled out from under my feet.

Gah. Sorry, I'm just venting. And reflecting.

Unfortunately, parenting separately means just that - and I say the same thing to female and male posters, unlike some.

You don't get to interfere in what happens when the kids are with your ex (unless they are actually at risk of harm, obviously)Kids aren't the most reliable of messengers, anyway - my DSS routinely tells his Mum he's done 'nothing' whilst with his Dad.

Lots of kids get unsettled and teary at handover and if they sense that you are ambivalent they will play up even more. They need a relationship with their Mum, so you have to make the best of it. Why not suggest mediation based round a parenting plan?

"Unfortunately, parenting separately means just that - and I say the same thing to female and male posters, unlike some."

I do realise that.

Shit... the only thing this thread has done is set me back weeks in terms of getting through this. I'm missing my kids desperately today, I'm missing my wife just as much (at least the good parts of her), I'm missing us all being inside together on a rainy day like today watching DVDs, I'm missing our dreams and plans, I'm missing having someone to sleep next to, and because of all that I've spent most of today in an absolute state.

I'm stopping posting here. Actually, I'm stopping posting everywhere. I can't keep putting myself through this. It's stupid. I'm in a mess. Jeez.

How recent is all of this Ambien? The split I mean.

After I split up with my x, although I did get 'some' support on line, because I found it very difficult to articulate what the problems were and why I'd left and how I felt, I ended up getting in to some extremely pointless arguments with some fathers for justice types. WEll, one father for justice type. He actually set back my progress by months. When I was at my most vulnerable and trying to get over all the stuff that had happened in real life, I was simultaneously defending what I'd had to do (ie, leave) to some random internet sprite. It was a bad idea. I should have logged off.

If things you're reading on line upset you more than they help you, and you're thinking of things your read that annoy you when you're doing something else, it's a good idea to log off. You'll get through it though. I think it takes longer than people expect though.

It's recent. She decided on the split in the middle of January, but couldn't move out until the end of Feb so we lived in separate rooms for 6 weeks. That was awful.

I totally understand that relationships don't always work, and I'm sure she had her reasons, but the way in which this was done stinks. She didn't try to talk to me once about anything - I had no idea at all that she was feeling like this.

It also came just as I was letting my guard down and trusting her again, after she did exactly the same last time - and after she promised that it was a mistake and that it wouldn't ever happen again. Sigh.

In addition to reflecting on the last 10 years, I'm also doing a lot of reading about emotional abuse such as this and she ticks almost every single item on that list.

As well as her anger towards me and the kids, she also has a compulsive spending problem, which was a major factor in me having to go personally bankrupt 3 years ago. I've also learned of quite a few lies she's told during the last 4 years, mostly with regards to finances, some of which could have implicated me fairly seriously, legally speaking.

Basically, since she did this the first time, I've gone from being a confident, outgoing, successful professional to a wreck with rock bottom self-esteem, a shadow of a career, and not much more than the shirt I'm wearing now.

I do have my kids, though, and I do know that I can give them the best.

Still, all I can see that I'm guilty of in the relationship is doing whatever it takes to TRY to make her happy. I know I'm probably responsible for more in terms of contributing to the split, but I just can't pinpoint it and she's not told me. Having said that, nothing I did ever made her happy. Nothing was ever enough.

My parents (and friends) have seen a change in me (and not for the best) over the years, but I kept reassuring them that I was happy and they didn't take it further. At the time, I genuinely believed I was happy. Sometimes I still believe it.

And like I said, I'd probably take her back in a second although I know that's just the lack of self-esteem talking.

I waver between feeling super low like that... to being gung-ho about taking control of things and moving forward, which I guess is where my OP came from.

I've had good advice and bad advice online - but it's difficult communicating accurately online. My family and friends have been great, and are doing a good job of keeping me grounded. Her family have again offered me support - as they did last time this happened. I've always been close to her family and they treat me like I'm part of it, but I'm trying to keep my distance from them, for obvious reasons.

However, emotionally, I'm still super fragile, especially once I see her driving off with the kids. Right now, that still gets me every single time - more so when the kids are telling me they really don't want to go.

Sorry Maggie00 - just a quick question for you this time.

From what I've read, I'm assuming that it was your decision to split from your ex. Before you made that decision, did you try talking to him about what the problems in your relationship were with a view to doing something about it as a couple?

Or did you bottle everything up, make him believe things were fine, not say a word for years, then announce without warning that you were leaving the relationship?

See what I mean?

OK, I'll answer from my experience. If you ask my ex, he would probably say that I just left one day. Maybe that is genuinely how he sees it.

But I had been trying to get away for years, I had tried to leave several times. In the last few weeks, yes I did say I loved him (he constantly asked me) and told him that we were fine. But it's because I was terrified of him, I experienced lots of types of abuse - emotional, verbal, sexual, financial. It was the police, Women's Aid and my GP who also advised me to make him believe things were fine and then leave while he was out and take our daughter.

This is just what happened to me. Maybe you would benefit from joining us on some of the other threads in the relationships section, such as NPD part II.

Thanks - your situation seems like a pretty extreme one, and it also seems like you had good reasons to leave.

I can't find any good reasons in my situation, and my wife hasn't - or can't - give me any... I know, I know... not that she's obliged to.

I've been reading the other thread and I see a lot of my wife in there. I can remember twice in 10 years when she said 'sorry' to me. The first was after she left and come back 4 years ago, and the second was after we'd sat down and explained to the kids that we were separating just a few weeks ago.

Incidentally, she'd decided she wanted to do that on Valentines Day. When I questioned this and suggested we did it the next day, she flipped and said "what the f**k does that matter, you twat"... in front of the kids.

Nice touch, eh?