Expected situation - still not sure how to handle.

[ambientcoast]

Gah... reading all these threads about split families is so sad. I appreciate that sometimes it's in the best interests to split because of abuse/violence etc, but a lot of the time it really isn't necessary - or at least it's surely worth the effort to do everything you can to make things work so your kids keep the family they deserve.

Anyway, my backstory - wife very suddenly and with no good/rational reason (to me anyway) decided to leave a couple of months ago, and she moved out. She actually did this once before about 4 years ago for a period of 4 months or so, and that time she left the kids at home with me.

This time around the kids are aged 8 and 5, however she's decided that she wants them with her half the week. We have an arrangement and it's basically 50/50, with me having them slightly more.

Now, she's never been great with the kids. I know it, the kids know it, my family know it, her family know it, our mutual friends know it, casual bloody observers know it. The only people who don't know it are HER, and all of her new buddies at work who've never met me or our friends or our families, and to who she's now portraying herself as the best mother in the world. Oh, and that she's extremely 'brave' for doing all this. Jeez.

Right, anyway... the problem is that while the kids are with me, they're great - until they remember that their mum is coming to pick them up for 3 or 4 nights. And then they (especially our 8yo, although our 5yo has also said this morning that she doesn't want to go) get really vocal and teary about not wanting to go, and that they'd much rather stay with me. Reasons stretch from the fact that it's boring and they don't do anything, to that 'mum just works on her computer all the time' - I know that she's not actually working... this is what she says to the kids when she's on Facebook, etc.

I've got nothing against them going to stay with their mum (as much as it kills me), but when it's upsetting them like this then I feel that in the not too distant future, I might need to step in somewhere...

...somehow.

Help.

Ambien, I'd no idea your split was so recent. The way you were talking I thought that after months and months of you having the kids, now your x was 'back' to co-parent. But you only split up about 8 weeks ago. It's no wonder you feel low. For the first while, the questions just go round and round in your head, and you can't even push them out for ten minutes. It'll get better, but it does take a while.

In answer to your question though, yes, I did try for years to talk to my x about the things that I perceived to be unfair. I was accused (by inference) earlier in the thread of being a man-hater, but really that's not true. I think I was just incredibly UNlucky to get involved with my x. Of all the men in all the gin joints. He was a controlling narcissist although I didn't know what he was at the time. I just thought he was the most bad tempered unreasonable person on the planet. He was also emotionally, financially, verbally and eventually, physically abusive too. Also, every single sacrifice of parenthood had to be mine. I constantly tried to 'reason' with him, but it never ever worked. He twisted everything I said and had such a negative paranoid way of looking at things. Sometimes he would say 'we are getting on so well right now' but it would be during times when I hadn't the energy to try and argue 'my case' anymore. We weren't a team at all. He had his great job and lovely car and he owned the house. I gave up my job to look after the children and he put a tiny amoutn of money into my account every month and then criticised the state of the house that was his, and the dinners that weren't up to scratch and just criticised everything really.

Even though I was the one who left, I still felt sorry for him because I saw the split more through his eyes than through my own (that's the state of mind I had then) and I just felt very upset for about 12-18 months. He just couldn't SEE or understand why I had left. I had tried to explain why I was so unhappy with him, but he didn't listen. He'd argue back at me that I was wrong to feel the way I did. He twisted everything I said to give it a sinister interpretation. He told me what I was thinking and feeling and judged me. He told me I was mentally ill and hysterical and dramatic. I feel a normal person. SO normal. Boring really. He was controlling and made me resign from my job. I had no money then. He had me over a barrel. I applied for other jobs and he went crazy. Sometimes he could scream for hours when he was angry. I never knew what would make him lose it. it was no life. Constantly waiting for the next explosion. My dc1 started to wet her knickers. I knew we had to leave then.

He spent about 6-8 months making various efforts to persuade me to come back. Sometimes those efforts were nice, other times they were more like threats. I never ever ever regretting leaving though.

Do you feel like you have a lot of unanswered questions and that you NEED the answers? If that is the case, maybe you could trying writing out your questions a few times, and boiling it down to the most important one. Then when you see her, ask her that ONE question. Don't overwhelm her or you won't get any answers at all.

But really, you (and I mean 'one' here, not YOU) have to try and accept that you don't always get all the answers. I know I didn't. For a while you think those unanswered questions will drive you mad. And then you wake up one day and you realise you still don't know but you just aren't as curious as you used to be. Maybe you will get some answers but it still won't change anything.

You're at the beginning of a split. It's not easy. Do things to distract yourself. Running, working, reading...

Ambient you've got lots of good advice here from people with very different experiences. Your split is very new and the whole contact situation is also very new.

From my experience, children will say what they think the other parent wants to hear. They find it very difficult to say they love both parents.

I'm in a similar situation as you in that I do not believe my children benefit from contact with their dad, but the courts prefer you to do this through them as I have learnt to my cost. Even when you think you have concrete grounds for refusing the other parent, the courts don't see it that way.

If you could separate your feelings towards your wife and the way you feel about the way she left you, and those unhelpful comments from friends and relatives, do you really believe she is a bad mother? Does she beat them? Does she frighten them? Are they fed and loved? Are they left on their own?

Try to ask yourself the type of questions a court would ask you and see if that makes a difference - as this is the only thing that's going to count in the long run.

ambient, this is difficult for me as I expect my ex could post something very similar but I thought I'd try to give you a different pov as it may help you understand.

I left 10 months ago as I could no longer live in the way we were going. I did try to tell my ex how I felt. I couldn't talk to him by then, all emotional connection was gone, but I did write him a letter saying how much I needed some sign of affection from him. he's a really good dad and would sacrifice his life for his family, but in doing that he forgot the foundation, which was us. outwardly our friends thought we were rock solid but at night i used to cry myself to sleep every night, I just wanted him to hold me and make me feel I was important too. but I'm a reasonable person, I'd look at what he was doing for our kids and feel so guilty for not being happy with that I was convinced I was just a terrible person. I also started a new job a few years ago, and this made me see there was another way to live. he took on the majority of the childcare, but underlying that was always the implication that he was doing better than I had. I also withdrew from the family. what was the point when your efforts were always subtly denigrated and he could do better himself. it got to the stage where I seriously considered the family would be better off without me, either walking away or something else. I've spent more than 12 months working through this, trying to see why we ended up this way. I now realise that he didn't mean to make me feel like that, he thought he was making my life easier by taking control of everything. past experiences have made me more sensitive than most and made him more controlling than most. it's not bad people, just two people that had stuff to work out who couldn't do it within the marriage. I bitterly regret the fact we have to split, because of the impact on the chldren, but know that this really is the best way. I did wait until the children were older but with hindsight I'm not sure there's ever a good time. you may find your ex is still desperately trying to rationalise why she did this and this is why she is still focussing internally at the moment. and I'll echo what has been said before, your children will focus on the 'bad' bits of each parent when with the other. my ex is tons better at the cooking/cleaning/day to day stuff than I am. I'm better at the ad-hoc, talking and sorting out problems stuff. it's not being a better or worse parent, just a different one. maybe the stuff you're good at is more important now, but you're ex will be better as they get older. the important thing to remember is that you both bring different things to your kids lives and they will need both.
I feel for you, you're hurting but you sound like a good person who can make this work for your children. like my ex is. like I am

I am hurting. Really, really hurting. And thanks for the replies - I understand your pov's, and yes it does give me some insight into what might possibly have been going through my wife's head the last few months.

But surprisingly, a lot of it is almost exactly what's been going through my own head the last few months, too.

Like you, I remember being this close to crying as I lay in bed next to her on a lot of nights after she'd turned over and gone to sleep. Most nights, in fact. All I wanted from her was consistent affection, and signs that she loved me, and a belief that I was important to her. I said a few posts ago that she did just enough to keep me hanging in there ('I love you's, kisses, etc) but she just couldn't give me much of the real, intimate stuff that people need. That I needed.

For example, it was my birthday while we were away on holiday last year and I didn't even get a birthday card - from her or from the kids. In fact, the kids wouldn't have even known it was my birthday. I know we were abroad, but if it had been her birthday while we were away, I'd have bought cards/little presents/etc for her in advance and hidden it all in our luggage. I'd have made it a special day as much as I was able to given that we were away - for the kids as much as for her. It wouldn't have taken a great deal of effort.

She felt guilty, and I didn't say anything much about it, apart from something like 'don't worry about it', but I kinda remember that she ended up deflecting her guilt onto me and she made me feel bad that she hadn't been able to take 5 minutes before we left to buy a couple of birthday cards. It's not that she didn't have 5 minutes - she actually goes shopping a lot of nights after work.

It was my birthday, I didn't even get a birthday card from my wife and kids - YET I WAS THE ONE WHO FELT GUILTY ABOUT IT. Huh?

I know birthday cards aren't really a dealbreaker, but that kind of thing has always been important to me - it's not just my day, it's a family thing - and I want that kind of thing to be important to my kids.

I just never seemed to take any kind of real priority in her mind. Yet, I was always doing 110% for her - to make her feel loved and wanted and appreciated. Most weekends, I'd make her breakfast in bed. I'd take the kids out so she could get some 'peace'. I'd cook for her every night. I made sure she knew how much she meant to me and how much I loved and adored her, and yet very little of that was ever reciprocated.

You can imagine that after a few years of this, I constantly felt pretty damned low. Worthless. Ashamed, even. Like I must have been doing something very very wrong, or that there actually WAS something wrong or abnormal with me as a person. My self-esteem took a real battering, and it sometimes became difficult to even speak to people in the street without wondering if they, too, could see that there was something wrong with me. But like I said, I got just the right amount of crumbs of a relationship from her to keep me plodding on. In fact, something just as simple as her putting her laptop down and sitting next to me on the sofa to watch a film made me feel pretty fucking special. In my mind, by doing that one tiny thing, she was really showing me that she loved me.

(Seriously, that's all it took to make me feel special/loved/whatever. Jesus, what does that say about my state of mind, or opinion of myself?)

Still, most of the times she did put her computer down and come and sit next to me, she'd always find some excuse after 10 minutes to say 'let me just check something on the internet' and she'd be back behind that screen for 2 hours leaving me to watch the DVD by myself again.

I have a hundred more examples of this in my head, but you get the picture?

What also compounds this situation is that I see the same kind of behaviour from her towards our kids. Like she does with me, she can do little things that make them feel very loved and it's heartbreaking to see the kids begging for scraps of affection and attention from her. But within hours or minutes, she can change so that she's extremely vitriolic towards them, and some of the things she's said to their faces have turned my stomach.

That's the kind of behaviour (emotional abuse?) that has had me in turmoil for years - I can't imagine what it's doing to my kids' little heads.

So because of all this, there has been a ton of times when I've actually thought about leaving. But I always reigned those thoughts back in because I didn't want to hurt (or lose) her and the kids. I was in love with the dreams I had for my family, and I always, always had hope that things would get better.

There was one time just a few months ago, when she pushed and pushed me to say that I would leave her - only for her to come to me a few minutes later and tell me that that wasn't what she wanted at all.

I've literally been all over the place here. For years. I'm starting to realise that the split is for the best - but accepting that this is now finished (when it's been such a big, turbulent, powerful, and affecting part of my life) is proving to be the hardest thing I've ever done.

I also now have to face all our friends and parents at school, etc, etc who all know that my wife has left me again. In my mind, they're all thinking "there must be something really wrong with him for his wife to just get up and leave him again", which reinforces my fears that I'm not normal in some way. However, in reality they're all very sympathetic and empathetic towards me, and have been pretty insightful about my wife, and are actually telling me that it's her who's at fault and that there's a better life out there for me.

Only my mind still doesn't believe any of that yet.

Ultimately, I'm just looking forward to having some mental and emotional peace and stability in my life that I can really take the time to enjoy with my kids. They deserve it, and I deserve it.

I don't know where I'm going with this, but writing it is very cathartic. It helps a lot.

You sound like you are going through a tough time, a similar experience for most of us who have recently(ish) split from our partners.

I just wanted to say that actually what you are feeling although it doesn't feel that way is very normal right now just 2 months after a split. The only way to get through it is to have a strict routine and focus on day to day chores and somehow this helps to keep the bigger emotions (resentment, anxiety, anger, loneliness etc) at bay.

It is a real rollercoaster ride. One day you'll wake up feeling happy, then the next you'll wake up in tears. But slowly it gets better. And then you realise your anger you feel for what seems like a callous end to the relationship will subside. And that's when you can make better decisions on what to do with the kids.

Your 8 year old might well be feeling anxious over the split and this might be the cause of the crying before they go to mums. Be careful not to take everything they say literally at a time like this because it is still important that they spend time with mum. But it might be that as time goes on she may want to reduce her level of contact as she might be finding it hard to cope with them 24/7 when they are with her. Remember she is going through some tough emotions too even if she instigated the split. And if this suits you better then go with it.

At the moment being a distant mum on the computer etc. is not the worst she could be as a parent so I would not bring this up with her and when the kids talk about it try to encourage them to find ways of keeping themselves active. I.e. pack their colouring books and nintendos or whatever they can do to keep themselves busy whilst she is 'distant'.

But overall remember that you are going through a rough emotional time and that things will improve for all of you over time. You will feel less and less resentment for the break up and frankly realise that perhaps you deserve to be in a more happy place with someone else in the future.

Good luck and don't forget things will get better for you and your kids.

Wow ambient, you must have felt so lonely in that relationship. I know that the loneliest I ever felt was IN a relationship. WHen you start to feel a bit better about the split you won't even feel a hundreth as lonely as one feels lying beside somebody in bed who shows no affection.

For whatever reason, you and she didn't work as a couple. It sounds like she fell out of love with you. I'm sure that hurts, but it is hard to 'fake' affection and interest and love, basically. That is what I thought reading your last post. That period where she was not sure what she felt must have been a dreadful limbo. But at least it's over now.

on facing people. Just be honest. Try to avoid telling a 'side' of the story if you have mutual friends. But just tell the truth 'Unfortunately it's definitely over this time. I'm not feeling great about it" I was really embarrassed when I had to crawl back to my parents house with two kids and no money and bruises on my face and a blood shot eye!!! I never felt so ashamed. But I just told the truth because I hadn't the energy to maintain any facade (i'd been doing that for years anyway). So I told the truth. And people were really kind. I thought people would judge me and look down on me, and so far, I don't think that has happened.

You're right when you say that the split is for the best. But often. for things to get better, the have to feel worse first. you could have stumbled on for another year, but by this time next year, you will be in a much better place.

By the way! I'm on my laptop and my dc1 is playing with bendaroos and Fimo and my dc2 is playing with his garage and cars! all happy here..... I did feed them though..... :-)

ambientcoast, I'm sorry to hear what has happened. I agree with the others hear who are saying it's early days and it's natural that your feelings will be all over the place. When I was in a similar position I found that writing down how I felt proved very cathartic. I think that we have to give ourselves time to grieve a lost relationship. And I also think that, sometimes, we also need time to grieve over the loss of our dreams of how the relationship was and to face the reality of how it truly was. Be kind to yourself. Accept any offers of support or help you get and don't be afraid to ask for help if you need it. I got counselling via my GP which I found immensely helpful.

As for how your children are taking it, I can understand your concerns. When I split with my ex we did 50:50 for about six months before it proved unworkable due to my ex's drink problems. But I think it was important to have that opportunity to try it out and see if it would work or not. That it didn't is a shame but it wasn't for a lack of trying on my part.

Give it time. I know it's worrying when you have to pack your kids off to somewhere you're not sure they're going to be looked after in the way you would. Where children have one disinterested parent it is immensely important that the other parent is interested and is "emotionally present" for them. Maybe your ex will buck her ideas up, maybe she won't. Either way the most important two jobs you've got are to take care of yourself and to take care of your children as best you can.

Yeah, lonely is definitely the right word. I've never felt like that before and I'm trying to make myself remember the pain I felt at the time so I have another another reason why this split is for the best.

Yeah, the falling out of love thing is tough to take in. I understand that it happens to people, but I also believe that keeping the love and commitment there is a decision you consciously need to make, especially when you have a young and vulnerable family. Otherwise all you're doing is relying on someone else to do it for you and make you happy... and that's never a good idea.

But then that's another way in which we were incompatible - she's not really the kind to commit in the long term.

The first time she left 4 years ago, we were having a bunch of financial problems - mainly caused by her compulsive spending (I've since found out that her last husband divorced her because of her 'irresponsible attitude to money' amongst other things. Her answer to our problems was not to stick together and work it out - she actually got online and started an affair with a 23yo kid who lived with his parents. She moved out into a rented room by herself after I discovered she was doing this - pretty much so she could continue this online affair without objections, and she actually flew out to meet this kid one weekend. She was 38yo at the time. I'm 6 years younger than her.

I know I'm not painting a great picture of her here, but these are all just facts. So, on reflection, I should probably have knocked things on the head back then, but I was absolutely desperate to keep my family together and did everything I could to make that happen.

That's why her spending so much time on the computer again really kept upsetting me, and is such a big deal. After what she did the first time, it took a lot for me to start trusting again. I'm not sure she's involved with anyone else again this time round, but I suspect she probably is.

In terms of facing people, I have been honest and have only given facts. I've not really mentioned much of this [the emotional abuse stuff/lonliness] to anyone really, except for my parents (who've told me they could see it anyway), and except for the times when I tried to talk/write/email to my wife about how I was feeling. (By the way, she just ignored most of that, too )

So no-one really knows what it's been like for me.

It's also difficult when some of our mutual friends (parents of kids the same ages as ours) are now coming out and expressing their concerns over my wife's abilities with the kids... and one or two of them have even told me that my wife has more or less bragged when they've been on girls nights out that she doesn't have much to do with the kids or the childcare, for example, that she doesn't even know what they eat(!). She thought they'd all see that as being pretty cool, when they were actually a little disturbed by it. In that respect, she hasn't really done herself any favours there.

Yep, I'm hoping that what I'm feeling now is the 'getting worse before it gets better' stuff. I'm sure this will all get easier in time - as about a million people have already told me.

"By the way! I'm on my laptop"

You do sound like you are in a state. It is early days.
But, try not to read what your friends are telling you in a certain way. It could be read like this.
Maybe they are saying that she was not bragging but that was the situation she has found herself in during the marriage and is now learning all about them and what they eat etc. and is enjoying it.
Friends also can say things that they think you might like to hear unfortunately.

Just keep focusing on yourself and your relationship with your dcs.

I agree, focus on the positive, your children and your good relationship with them.

I think having mutual friends is a form of torture after a break up.

Years earlier (not the abusive x), I'd had a relationship with a friend's uni friend and when that all went wrong I felt a million times worse. Like I was being talked about, misrepresented, judged, pitied... the whole mutual friends things is a recipe for throwing fuel on to your pain when you are post break up (in my opinion).

I would choose a few friends who will support you and then decide in your head that you won't expect or demand loyalty from the others. Otherwise, you'll be watching every second for proof of loyalty and signs of betrayal! The break up I had years ago (over a decade) was bad enough in itself, but knowing that all my flatmates, friends, their friends had an opinion on the break up and why it happened, that nearly finished me off!!! that was the straw that broke the camel's back and sent me teetering over the edge!!

Don't cut off good friendships obviously, but take a step back from people who are just mutual acquaintances. And delete them from facebook too.

I've managed to chop up carrots and broccoli and put a chicken in the oven whilst chatting here! kids staring at the tv now!

Yeah, I understand all of that... and I agree. But a lot of the mutual friends are also my neighbours - and mine and their kids are all friends, too. Cutting them out would be a problem. I think I really just need to stop talking about it.

But it's not just friends, though. My wife's brothers and sisters have warned me lots of times about her selfish streak, and told me to be careful. Her parents told my parents when they first met a long, long time ago that they couldn't believe - and never, ever expected - that my wife would settle down with someone, never mind have children.

Maybe I should have listened to all that? Lesson learned, eh?

I also had her mum contacting me the other day to ask how the kids are (why not ask your daughter - the kids are with her half the week?!), and to say that she hasn't spoken to my wife in a while. I tried not to say anything much really, and she ended the conversation with me by saying that she hopes my wife 'doesn't get sick of the kids'. Like it's something that everyone's expecting. Sigh.

In all honesty, it looks like I should really have been the one to leave. But there was a ton of stuff keeping me in the marriage, and also preventing me from seeing what was really happening. Plus, I said all the 'for better or worse' stuff to my wife for a reason too, for f**k's sake.

Y'know, I can probably live without my wife. In fact, life as a single person isn't really that much different to my marriage - except that there isn't someone sitting on the sofa behind a laptop occasionally peeking out only to shout at the kids because she can't hear the TV, and there's no-one to lie next to in bed (even if she might as well have been a cardboard cutout most nights). That's probably all.

But what I'm not sure I can live with just yet is what we've done to the kids - and their family.

In that, I feel like the biggest failure on the planet.

I think I understand a little of what you are going through. I'm a little further on as we separated in the summer. However, we had done 18 months with Relate, individual counselling etc and it was only after all this that I suddenly realised that whatever he was saying he wasn't acting like he wanted us to be together.

It felt like a real kick in the teeth and I was really angry about having wasted literally years making a go of it. Initally I felt much better (it feels so good to stop hitting your head against a brick wall). But, after 3 months, I hit a real low. I simply didn't understand why he didn't want to be with us. We had quite a big row and he was positively vindictive. But this was quite a turning point. I realised that it was really over. We were not going to be friends, ever. He didn't care about me at all. And I certainly deserve much better than that.

At the same time, he is not particularly good around the children who describe his moods as erratic and unpredictable. It is not clear whether this is because he is struggling with his own feelings or whether he's always been like this and I have always been around to ease things. I have struggled with how to cope with this.

My strategy, for what its worth, has been to maintain a good working relationship with their dad. We attend school events together etc etc. I make this work by never relying on him for anything. I think of him as a parent I talk to in the playground - happy to chat as we're both there but nothing else. So I will ask if I need something relating to the children (even if I resent having to ask at times!).

I listen to the children without judging their dad. Very much along the lines of 'how did you feel about that' and 'you sound really cross about that'. I've asked them how they would like things to be. When I've felt it merited it, I have given their dad feedback along the lines of 'the children have said .... and are upset about .... I've asked him if he feels their comments are fair or not. I've explained what the DCs would like. I've also explained to the DCs that their dad was finding it difficult too, much like them. I'm not pretending it's easy but I do want them to have a good relationship with their dad and I'm focussing on the longer term.

I want my children to feel safe talking about either of us to the other (after all we all have bad days and we all need to sound off about it!). I also want them to know that they won't get 'rewarded' even inadvertantly for criticising the other parent. They are angry and want someone to be 'to blame' but I don't think that this is helpful to them in the longer term - after all they are half of each of us so to hate one parent will mean they hate half of who they are too. When they are older they can make up their own minds.

It's hard to do all this and then have the DCs announce that they'd like to spend more time with their dad. But, my DCs welfare is the most important thing to me and has to come above my own needs. That said, after a few days extra with dad in the holidays, they all decided that they wanted to stick to the current arrangement. Internally, I could have jumped for joy, but what I actually said was: 'Well, okay, we'll leave things as they are for the moment but if you want to change it at any time in the future we can always discuss it.'

I still have bad days and good days but I have found that keeping myself busy and focussing the the DCs needs is helpful. Sometimes I'd like there to be space for me but, to be honest, I'm still at the stage where if I'm alone I comfort eat and spend quite a lot of time in tears. But I can now enjoy doing things with the children. I do go out on my own sometimes and I am planning to do more in the future. Some days I can see a future and some days I just worry about the day one hour at a time.

Wow - why are some people SO harsh on here! No-one knows anyones exact situation apart from them and there are always two sides to every story. My ex was and still is a complete *@!! Ass but I'm not anti men - there are some decent men and women out there!

This actually feels comforting that a 'man' is experiencing the problems some kids have dealing with sharing their time between two sets of families - my exh swore blind I was making all the problems up (which were severe enough for me to seek professional help!) and that I was the crazy one! I wish more men (and by the sounds of it some women too!) could witness some of these problems and maybe then more thought would be given to the welfare of their children.

Unfortunately you can't control what the other parent does with their time - my kids come back moaning when they've had a 'boring' time and don't always want to go and other times they've had a good time.

All you can do is ride this out until maybe the kids are of a mature enough age to make their own decisions to spend more time with whichever parent.

As for you - I sense you still 'hurt' having you're family broken up by the other person (which was probably out of your control) - I hurt for quite a few years and still do at times but I've learnt to shut the door when the kids come home, along with the negativity and just get on with enjoying the positives with my children.

Good luck.

Thanks. All good advice and insight. Thanks especially to secretskillrelationships - that's all really useful, and there are a lot of similarities there.

I also feel like I've wasted a lot of time and effort into something that I most likely never stood a chance with. Got a ton of examples of times where she chased after things that she really wanted (I guess these were things she also assumed would make her happy?) only for her to decide it wasn't what she wanted after all. I nearly always helped her (often by sacrificing my needs, and often disregarding common sense) to get these things.

For instance, she was the driving force behind the last three houses we lived in, only for her to decide she didn't like them not long after we moved. The place I've just moved into is the 5th house I've lived in, in 10 years. I'd have been happy if I was still in the very 1st one we bought.

In our last house she wanted some rabbits (she said they'd be for the kids, but also said it would make us 'feel like a proper family' - we were already a proper family, ffs!) and she never once had anything to do with them once we got them. The kids got bored of them quickly, too, and I was landed with the job of re-homing them shortly afterwards.

She then wanted a dog that I also had to find a new home for after just a few weeks of having it in the house.

We'd also been wanting a camper van for a while (together) and we saw one that she really loved and we spent quite a bit of cash buying it just over a year ago. Then, the first time we used it, she decided 'it wasn't really what she wanted'. I really, really loved it and was super excited about going away in it, and the kids were too - so you can imagine how deflated I felt when she came out with that while we were away. I ended up mostly using it occasionally on weekends with the kids while she stayed at home, although we did go abroad for 2 weeks in it in the summer (she read books & magazines for 2 weeks solid, while I played with the kids).

She had me build a huge area of decking at the back of the house so she could sit outside. I didn't get a word of thanks or appreciation for doing it, and she used it about 5 or 6 times in 2 years. I ended up sitting out there myself most of the time.

We spent quite a bit of money on the bathroom last year in the house we've just left, only to hear that one of her reasons for her leaving me was that she 'hated this house'.

During the 10 years we've been together, she's left at least 4 (or was it 5, I can't remember) good jobs because there have been people at work that she hasn't gotten on with. Each time, I've supported her decision fully. On the flip side, the only emotional support I've really had from her in terms of my work is when she's boasted to friends/workmates about what I do. At home, she had a complete disrespect for my work and even blatantly told me she wasn't interested in it on a few occasions.

The kids didn't make her happy or fulfilled, either. If they did, I'm sure she'd never have walked out on me, a 4yo, and a 1yo like she did the last time she left. Can any of you imagine doing that to your kids at those ages? I can't.

With all that in mind, I think I've also been something that she's used to try to make her happy, and of course that hasn't worked either - despite me bending over backwards to please her.

I'm not sure anything, ever, will make her truly happy. I've got to get that into my head.

But it just leaves me feeling like I've been chasing something I'd never be able to catch, and because of that it seems like I've wasted a good chunk of the last ten years of my life.

What's really gotten to me though is the cruel way she left. Out of the blue, she turned really nasty, said some awful, hurtful things to me, tried to blackmail me for money, and then threatened to disappear somewhere with the kids if I didn't do what she wanted. I'm still trying to cope with all that.

Regardless, I've seriously missed her and the kids this weekend, and I don't know if that's just me missing the familiarity of it all, or that I've been by myself for real for the first time in 10 years, or whether I still love her, or whether I love the idea of the normal wife/kids/family that I never really had, or what.

But I've hated every minute of it - and ashamedly I've spent most of it in tears.

ok you are mourning the relationship you never really had --for that aspect i'd seriously sugest counceslling and a sspecific divorce/separatd wopkshop/therpay group ...try www.drw.org.uk for lcoal group.

that is the you and her bit... it is over, that is something you have to learn to accept. and you ahve given enough examples it wasnt great anyway.... but like me many of us you fall in that trap of thinking well s/he could have been better.....they showed a few signs of being "normal" "loving" etc...but there were too many negative things right?

with the children i sympathise and your ex is like mine - "i dont want to go he just sits at computer all day" "why does he do stuff on cpmputer when he with us, when he can do that when he not with us?" (very logical approach there...."he went to his room and slept"

i got some good advice here - what he does with them is his business, so long as they not in danger.

the 9 and 7 year old - no they not in danger as such - bored yes no doubt about it...

. the 13 yr old with special needs - yes - there is a risk there - he needs constant supervision. so i really can't leave him in his care in the afternoons (which is when exP takes his siestas).

they bored? well - i guess is just tough... they will soon be old enough/confident enough to express this to him - or eventually to arrange other stuff with their friends etc not dependent on him.

www.drw.org.uk/

Yep, been thinking of attending some kind of group, actually. None of those are local unfortunately.

One other worry I have at the minute is that the last time my wife left, she decided to come back of her own accord. However, the first I knew that she'd decided this was when she told me that she'd "already told the children that we're going to live together again". In other words, she'd decided we were getting back together (just as she'd decided that we were splitting) without talking to me first.

Just hope she doesn't pull that one again.

ambient - if you decide you not going to live together again then you not.
decid what it is to be and stick to it.

dont let her manipulate her way back in.

unless there are huge changes in her/you it doesnt sound like you have a future together.

I think you could benefit from reading this book by Lundy Bancroft. Your wife has really played games with you and this may help you get some of the answers you are so desperately searching for.

And I completely understand what you were saying about birthday cards, don't get me started on Easter eggs...

You might also find Codependent No More enlightening too.

Yeah, I'll give those books a try. Cheers.

So, I picked the kids up from school yesterday afternoon which was the first time I'd seen them since Saturday morning when my wife picked them up from my house. Horrible 4 days - didn't sleep, eat, do anything really. I tried to get out on my bike, tried to get out for a run... all things I'd normally do were a HUGE struggle.

But... it was like a shot in the arm seeing them again yesterday, though. The smiles on their faces when they saw me there to pick them up made me feel like a million dollars.

However, when I asked my 5yo what she'd been up to and if she'd done anything exciting while she'd been away, she told me that "Mum had gotten really angry at us, but she told us not to tell you."

So my wife is still getting really angry at the kids while they're with her, but is also now trying to get the kids to keep this a secret.

I know there's not much I can do, but I don't like the sound of that.

horrible to hear....

you can make it clear to your dcs she can always tell you anything and she wont get into trouble...

cestlavielife - yeah, that sounds like a pretty solid thing to say.

I know that my 8yo is 'protecting' his mum as he slipped up last week and indirectly indicated that the reason he was reacting violently to his sister winding him up was that he'd seen his mum do it. He immediately backtracked to say that it was because he'd seen his sister do it, and stressed over and over that it wasn't mum.

and piting out certain behaviours are wrong - focusing on the behaviour not the person as such....

asking questions to them - if you feel angry about somehting what would you do?

is xxx a good way?

what can you do if you feel like hitting someone?

what if you feel like shouting?

my dd has a lot of times when she would do something - hit her sister, scream shout whatever- and say "i couldnt help it she made me do it" - which was taken from my exP saying "you make me behave like this"

i think they are old enough to understand we all make choices how to behave, or to do "count to ten" techniques etc, walk away techniques.

Gah! My wife has said that a lot, too - and I think (but I'm not 100% sure) I remember her saying it to the kids on occasions, too.

"You made me do this!"

She definitely said it to me the first time she walked out on me and the kids - apparently, I made her do that. Jeez.

Thanks though - they're all good pointers about how to talk stuff like this through with my kids. I'll try that.