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Original poster

XH not seen DS for 9 months & wants to take him on holiday...

30 replies

Kaninchen · 18/01/2010 20:44

ExH lives overseas and wants to visit DS at Easter. I have no problem with this.

They won't have seen DS for 9 months and wants to take DS away for a week (maybe 2) to his parents, 300 miles away. Whilst I have no problem with DS visiting ex's parents (I have taken him there myself), I don't think it is best to suddenly appear in DS life, whisk him away from me, from nursery, from his friends for a week or 2. I want to suggest that ex stays somewhere near us (in a B&B) for a couple of days so that he and DS can get reacquainted before the go away together.

DS is 4 and has contact with his father on webcam/ phone several times a week.

AIBU? Overprotective? Selfish? I don't know where I stand legally since all our documents were done overseas.

Can anyone help?

(namechanged because he lurks but is fairly obvious who I am if you know me)

OP posts:
tartyhighheels · 18/01/2010 20:54

No, not any of these things, you are his Mummy and little ones need their mummies. Your ex is doing this for his ease and not thinking about how weird this could be for the boy. You would be mad to let him go.

You are being entirely reasonable, stick to your guns.

Original poster
Kaninchen · 18/01/2010 21:02

Thanks.

I thought, if they spent 2 or 3 days here, then went away for 2 - 3 days and I met DS there after that and brought him home, they'd get a week or so together but DS wouldn't be far from me for long. And I could always go and get him if need be. This'll be their first visit together and I think exH is expecting to have 2 weeks with DS but I think it'll be too disruptive and upsetting for him.

OP posts:
Original poster
Kaninchen · 01/03/2010 18:36

Anyone?

Ex is demanding that he arrive in London, meet DS and they go to his parents for 2 weeks. He is refusing to get to know DS again. Is there anything I can do?

OP posts:
ChasingSquirrels · 01/03/2010 18:44

yes - don't let him take ds!

GypsyMoth · 01/03/2010 18:44

Yeah don't take him!!

GypsyMoth · 01/03/2010 18:47

What arrangements were made overseas? Is there a court order?

Where's he from? Hague convention country?

Original poster
Kaninchen · 01/03/2010 18:51

But we have a legal agreement (done overseas where ex lives, not in the UK) that states that DS must spend those 2 weeks with ex. If I don't let him go, I may jeopardise my custody (I have been told this by my solicitor). It's a complicated situation.

I have no problem with DS going away for a few days or with him seeing his father. But I don't think they should do that til they have spent time together. I just don't know how to enforce that. I don't want to make threats but I don't know what to do

OP posts:
Original poster
Kaninchen · 01/03/2010 18:52

Yes, Hague convention country and court ordered. DS will go there in the summer (I will take him and bring him home). If I have broken my part of the agreement, I will be hauled through the courts.

OP posts:
ChasingSquirrels · 01/03/2010 18:55

ah right.
Hope someone comes along with more experience, can definitely see your issue though, no way would I want my 4yo going off for 2 weeks with someone he hasn't seen for 9 months.

allaboutme · 01/03/2010 18:56

I'd meet with your solicitor again and go through the details carefully as to what you can and cant do tbh
If you cant force exH to spend time with DS at your house first then could you go along with DS and exH to see his family or stay in nearby B&B so you are on hand in case Ds needs you?

KerryMumbles · 01/03/2010 18:56

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Original poster
Kaninchen · 01/03/2010 19:02

Thanks Kerrymum

allabout, I do plan on doing that - I thought if they spent a day or 2 here, even an afternoon, then travelled and spent the weekend together, I'd go up in the week and be nearby. I'd make sure I spoke to DS every day.

I will speak to a solicitor here. I feel sick about all of this.

OP posts:
KerryMumbles · 01/03/2010 19:08

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

GypsyMoth · 01/03/2010 19:14

What other contact was agreed in court? Surely not just webcam then a random 2 weeks? Has your ex stuck rigidly to other contact arrangements?

Littlefish · 01/03/2010 19:15

Although he hasn't seen him in person, you say that they are in phone/webcam contact several times a week, so it's not like your ds has forgotten about him completely.

Does your ds talk about his father? Does he know that he's going to stay with him soon? What does he say about it?

If you're really worried, why don't you arrange to deliver your ds directly to the grandparents, and stay up there yourself overnight so that you are nearby.

Original poster
Kaninchen · 01/03/2010 19:17

I AM worried, Kerry. I don't think he would but he has done before, in slightly different circumstances. So, I will always have a nagging worry about it. But I don't think he would this time...

I will see a solicitor.

I am just finding it hard to work out what is me being ridiculous & overreacting and what is a valid concern. I am not always the most rational of people and have been known to jump to conclusions

OP posts:
Original poster
Kaninchen · 01/03/2010 19:23

Agreement was contact would be 1 week at xmas (ex could not travel so this didn't happen), 2 weeks at Easter and 5 weeks in the summer plus weekly phone calls.

DS speaks to his father at least once a week, usually 2 or 3 times, either on the phone or on the webcam. So they do have frequent contact (although not in the past 2 weeks when ex went away without telling me)

DS knows his Dad will visit but does not know when. I haven't told him because he has no concept of time but I know he will be excited to see his dad. He talks about him a lot and his dad seems to be a bit of a hero.

OP posts:
pertbootywish · 01/03/2010 20:46

Hi there Kaninchen,

I am in a similar position, exH lives abroad and my dd is 4yrs, and spoke of his intention to airlift dd out of UK for 4 weeks this summer with having seen her last at her 2nd B-day , the thread is a while back though.

My questions for you are; was the order drawn up in the knowledge that you both reside in different countries? Is there such wording in your agreement as 'to be agreed by both parties' (which may come after, times/places etc re access)?

Looking at your posts above my instinct (not legal advice I hasten to add) would be that as he has not exercised the access as laid out then he cannot expect to take your ds 'away' for x weeks. The purpose of setting out the access arrangements is to engender the familiarity between ds and his dad and this doesn't appear to have happened here. You would not be refusing access if you allowed your exh to have son in your own home or nearby, which at that age and with limited previous contact would appear acceptable, you are only not agreeing to the associated travel.

Have you discussed possibilities with exh? My outcome (for those interested and after almost £1k of lawyers fees) is that exh (new wife and her daughter) are coming to visit with dd and (due to their argument of costs.......which was a bit rich since original request was for family trip to Disney) they are all staying in our house (I shall be moving up the road with family to be nearby). For the grand total of 4 whole days

I hope you get some resolution.

Mongolia · 01/03/2010 22:54

Lets forget about the Hague Convention, it is incredibly difficult to get a child to be returned even when you have a court order and it has been taken to a Hague Convention country. By the time you have gone through all the red tape, the child would have settled in his new environments and the courts will decide that it is not in the best interest of the child to be uprooted again.

Now that we have moved out of the false hope of the HAgue Convention... well, if he has done it in the past there is nothing that could prevent him from doing it again, is there? you can apply for a prohibition steps order to avoid him taking the child out of the country.

Sometimes solicitors want to keep the peace, but it seems o me that many times they don't know how little the non resident parent can't be trusted.

For once, my gut feeling is the same as Kerry.

Mongolia · 02/03/2010 09:51

BTW, I think that contact via telephone and webcam is severely over rated at this age. My ex used to ring DS every night and at that age, the conversations were limited to "who is it?" "where are you" "Ah! OK, Bye". I felt sorry about my ex who obviously wanted to talk more but DS couldn't manage more than that. Unfortunately, I'm thoroughly convinced that if the only contact he had with his father was via telephone, well DS would definitively be more likely to feel comfortable in Mr Maker presence than with his father.

On the other hand, those short conversations were simply a glimpse into DS day, that didn't make his father aware of how much his sleeping patterns had changed, that he was in a different diet, what things he liked or disliked, or what things DS still had trouble to cope with. So, even if there were no doubts that the dad will return the child after a visit abroad, I wouldn't agree to it unless he had a few days, with you around, to help him familiarise himself with the needs of your child.

Parental skills are slowly developed adapting to the child needs, they just don't spontaneously happen because they have a blood link.

aSilverLining · 02/03/2010 11:37

My gut instinct was the same as Kerry's too and that was before I read he had done something similar before!

I would be seeing a solicitor. Even if it meant me running up ££££debt in fees. For what it is worth I do not think you are being at all ridiculous or overeacting.

I really feel for you Kaninchen it must be such a hard situation to be in.

Original poster
Kaninchen · 02/03/2010 19:31

I have an appointment with a solicitor - I outlined my concerns and we spoke at length about the situation. They said they didn't think they could do anything so I am not sure a solicitor can help.

I agree, phone calls and webcam interactions are not enough. I just want to protect my DS and make sure he will be ok. I want him to see his father, I just want him to feel safe and comfortable.

I really don't think ex would take DS this time. But, well, there is always the chance.

OP posts:
Mongolia · 02/03/2010 20:51

Get another solicitor. Of course they can do something, the least they can do is applying for a prohibition steps order if you don't want the child to leave the country.

You can also just disagree and let him to take you to court for refusing to keep to the agreement, if you get to that, they would ask why, and if you explain that it has happened in the past, it is likely that the court will agree with you.

I have a friend who ONCE mentioned, in the spur of an angry moment, that she would take her DDs back to her country. She was ordered to hand their passports over because, there was the slight possibility that she would carry on with the threat even when ALL the evidence indicated she had no intention whatsoever to leave. Courts take the possibility of child abduction very very seriously.

Another person I know, went through the same even before opening her mouth, the exh asked for an emergency appointment to court with the lie that mum was planning to stay in her country after the planned holiday. It was exactly the same, she ended loosing the flights and the holiday while trying to convince court she was only going to visit her family for a couple of weeks. As far as I'm aware, she also had to handover the passport of her child. So... the moral of all this babble is that you can refuse to agree to the dad requests, IF you have grounds to believe that such trip will not be in the best interests of your child.

Original poster
Kaninchen · 02/03/2010 21:15

I think it is in DS best interest to spend some time with his Dad and his Grandparents.

I have his passports so hopefully that will mean he cannot go anywhere (unless ex can get new ones?) and ex is planning for DS to visit him in the summer. So, hopefully, that means he won't be plotting anything now. I just wish I felt comfortable with this.

Thanks for your advice.

OP posts:
Mongolia · 02/03/2010 21:31

Ok, lets start again.

Any possibility that you can convince your ex to spend more time with his son to help him familiarise himself with his son before taking him away?

Any possibility for you to take the child to him, so you can introduce him to the new environment? Any possibility of you picking up DS at the end of the holiday?

Apologies if you found my posts upsetting, for some reason I seem to be surounded by these cases lately, but you are right, it is important he keeps contact with his father's family.

I wouldn't stop my ex taking DS to see his family abroad, I am sure he will return him because he would return himself as he has enough links with this country, but the moment those links are broken, it's another story, not because I'm too paranoid, but because he told me he was not going to return him at some point
in the past.