How do you deal with parental alienation?

[Mongolia]

That's the question. I'm trying to find strategies to protect my lovely, very mature but also very young DS, as his father is feeding him every single detail of our divorce process.

I don't have anything to hide, he is another story... he has been abysmally dishonest, but that is not the point. The point is that every time DS comes from his house he has been told I am not allowing his father to contact him.

The bastard is enjoying to play the victim with anyone who wants to hear him. Despite big expense and time put into place for him to keep in touch with DS in a daily basis (while also protecting me from his very chaotic behaviour). Instead he has decided to reduce contact and blame it on me.

I really don't know how to cope with this. I have been trying to tell him things like "I don't know why your father is saying that", "perhaps there is a misunderstanding" but to be honest it is not working, DS is beyond that.

Any ideas, prefferably not involving more solicitors as I'm already skint and not able to pay for them, and in any case, exh doesn't give a hoot about solicitors letters.

How old is DS?

7 going into 16

You posted about this before didn't you.

I'm not sure what to suggest. It's heartbreaking isn't it? I think you are handling it very well.

Mine has been fed lines like 'Mummy is trying to steal Daddy's Money', 'Mummy and Daddy had a battle to get you and Mummy won' etc (this is just the stuff I know about).

I think your DS is old enough to suss that something is not right.

Yes, I have Janos, it's me again.

The lines this week have been:

• "Daddy can't see you as much as before because mummy wants a lot of money and Daddy needs to work harder to get it" Despite of all arrangements he has decided to reduce contact, it was an absolute surprise.

• Exh gave DS £10 as a Christmas gift and took him to a playing area, then asked for the £10 back as he didn't have money to pay the entrance as he was paying for mummy's house" (A bit rich considering we are just managing thanks to tax credits, while he has a remarkably high salary)

• And finally, "Daddy can't ring you because your mum will ring the police" followed by a very detailed account of his own very flawed version of the incident where the police was contacted but according to him, it shouldn't be. Why on Earth did he decide that it was a good idea for DS to know this... I don't know.

DS is having problems to sleep, he is very worried about money, and saying he doesn't believe his dad, which is also a tragedy. The bastard doesn't realise that by trying to ruin the trust DS has on me, he is also ruining the trust DS has on him. Leaving DS with no adult he can fully trust.

I really don't know what to do... I don't know how to talk to DS to make him understand that I'm not an awful person trying to take advantage of his dad, because it seems the only way to keep face is to tell him what his dad did and continues to do, and doing that will be as bad as what exh is doing.

Oh dear. No experience of this as a parent, but I grew up with parents who each "subtly" badmouthed one another to me (they lived very far apart and had shared custody) and it was not nice at all.

FWIW, I think as he grows, your DS will appreciate the subtleties of what has been going on far more than you might think. It is brilliant that you are not stooping to the same level as his dad and he will come to understand that, I'm certain; and in the long run it will reinforce, not damage, his trust in you.

You can't control what your DH does but you can decide to respond to it by doing what feels right and fair and best for your child, and it sounds like this is exactly what you're doing. Good luck, sorry I can't suggest more in the way of strategy.

Thank you Dorothea. I expect DS is getting to understand that something within exh's stories doesn't ring true, but looking back to those years when your parents were badmouthing each other, is there anything that you can suggest that would have made the things easier for you? I can not get exh to stop, but I wonder if there is anything that I may do to help DS go through this without more damage.

I think what did help was having occasional interaction with other adults in my life who were not part of the immediate situation, but who knew enough of it to get the general picture, and really did not have a bias or an agenda. I did have the odd chat or supportive word from a teacher or the parent of a good friend, which really helped because I didn't have to worry about their feelings when talking about it (I'm just thinking that, when talking with you, your DS may feel he has to watch what he says for fear of upsetting you).

My DS is too little for me to really know what resources are out there for people now. Does his school have a counsellor, or anything? Or could you do a bit of digging for ideas about where he could get some support? Does he have anything like I dunno, scouts or something ...

sorry I just realized I called your ex your DH when he is clearly not

Good idea, hmm... Actually, my parents were not divorced but they were not, when I was young, particularly supportive. I drew out a lot of my strength from the kind advice and affection of those other adults, so definitively... a good idea.. I really need to surround him with more people he can trust.

ask GP about family therapy in your area, for your ds to acess eg play therapy etc. .

you might also be able to get separation counselling together with xH (if that is not too horrendous an idea).

also if you get profresional involved then they might be able to get msg across to exH in some way.

also seeing a family therapist yourself - one who has worked with children too - could give you ideas and lines to take . maybe jsut aranign one session would be enough to ask about specific things to say to your ds. and how you can behave in a way which supports ds.

Separation counseling as a couple would be great, I think that all the rubbish we have been trough over the last year stems from many misunderstandings and perhaps a couple of persons winding exh up against me (he has never been good reading people's intentions, so leading him into stupid beliefs is, unfortunately, extremely easy).

We were fine, co parenting DS together as a team, and then suddenly everything turned sour (I don't want to blame new woman in his life but.... exh only started to portray himself as a victim and treating me as if I wanted to take advantage of him since he started with her , I'm in good terms with his previous girlfriends, as he was with my boyfriend, so I was a bit baffled to see this one drawing strong divide as if it was not adequate for exh and I to be in good terms.

This morning I talked to Parent Line and started weeping while I was talking to them. Someone will call me within next week to support me during this process, I only wish that someone has lots of strategies on how I can help DS.

Interesting that all instances I contacted before getting to Parent Line suggested I stopped contact . No matter how bad exh is behaving towards me, I still think that DS should have contact with his father... but how long I will continue to think the same considering how much damage he is causing to DS... I don't know

Mongolia, I'm not particularly knowledgeable (all I know is that I'm on tenterhooks sometimes wondering what exH will say to DD, although she's only 2 so too young to understand). My philosophy is that when a child is facing difficulties, even if you can't take them a way, at least you can acknowledge them, so the child doesn't have to struggle with the idea that his feelings are "wrong".

How about: "Daddy is angry at me now and saying some things to you that make you feel bad. But it's our job to worry about money and things, not yours. There is always going to be enough, and we both love you and want to spend time with you. It's up to us to sort out the details and we will, although it might take a bit of time."

Thank you nickname, it is a very good suggestion. I have explained that to him, and from some phrases he sometimes uses, I suspect his father has told him the same... Yet, it continues to happen and perhaps the "I'm not part of this argument" that he was repeating on the phone over and over again when he last called his dad, only shows that using it only gets exH angrier and therefore more prone to splurt out things he should keep to himself.

The other day I told him that if his dad was saying things that were hurting him that he should say that he didn't want to hear more about it. Poor thing, he then said "But mum, do you realise that if I say that he is going to get so mad I'm going to be in serous trouble?" Sadly, I had to accept that he was right

Christ. I do feel for you Mongolia.

This sounds awfully similar to my XP. What a shit doing this to his child. I remember my stepmum saying similar things about my mum and it permanently damaged our relationship.

When DS (who is 5) talks about this stuff to me I always say something along the lines of "Daddy is being silly and he shouldn't say that to you because it's not true". The difference here though is that DS does not seem particularly upset by it, as if he already knows his Dad talks nonsense.

I then rant on about him on here/to trusted friends and family to let off steam.

Do you think that would help at all?

I'm on the other side of the coin whereby I have to hear my stepchild tell me all manner of things that his mother has told him about me and my DH.

I simply tell him that such adult conversation is just that ....ADULT! That he has no reason to worry about it, that his mum shouldn't be discussing such things with him given how distressed he becomes and that he's not to worry...then obviously I hug him and tell him it's all going to be ok.

As I've said in my own posts and others..it's Parental Alienation Syndrome in it's most vicious form x

Mongolia I feel for you - my DD is 10 now and my exH has tried for years to poison her against me (she lives with me). She was scared of standing up to her dad in any way for many years - I've heard the "but he'll get angry with me" line so many times - only thing I could do was give her lots of cuddles and wipe away the tears and told her not to worry. I've never discussed money/housing/divorce with her - even when he has - she's worked out for herself that he's tried to manipulate her and she can see through the lies.

If Parentline can help YOU then that is indirectly helping DS ... if he sees you distressed then he will worry about you and try to bottle things up. Kids are remarkably resilient and as long as your DS knows you love him and that he can talk to you and feel safe with you then you will be able to help him through this.

Janos, is the amount of detail that worries me... It is difficult to brush things off when he has been told things in such detail that figures are mentioned. :-(

PepermintJunkie, that is something that makes me worry also. While he is here complaining that he doesn't want to see his dad, and all the things dad does to him I sometimes wonder what does he say when he is over there.

IE. He spends months complaining that since exh met the new woman, he never paid more attention to him, that he was left to play all the time with the new woman's child, and ignored otherwise. Every time he came from his dad's he came complaining on how little attention his dad was given him and how the other child was been favoured in everything. I told DS that he needed to talk to his dad about how he felt, he insisted for ages, cried demanding I did something about it but I insisted that he needed to talk to his father as I couldn't do anything. So finally, after a few weeks of claiming his father was ignoring him and brushing the subject to the side, he finally did.

His father went ballistic and accussed me of parental alienation, he then gave me a full explanation saying that he had moved on and that I had to accept I was not part of his life (NOTE: It was me who begged for divorce for 8 years!!!), questioned DS harshly and when DS didn't say what he wanted, accused me of asking DS to keep secrets from him.

I replied saying that DS had been trying to talk to him about that for ages, that I had not asked him to keep secrets and to remind him that I was the first one to congratulate him on finding his "new" family -I was happy for him, honest!-. But then, on heavy questioning DS said he was very happy and I have made up that he was unhappy with exh's new partner and child. I understand he was scared, so I don't blame him but... this also left me wondering ever since, if the little thing is telling fibs to his father to keep him happy and making me look like b*h.

JajaT. But that's the thing, they shouldn't have to have to stand to their parents. I just wish exh pretended I was dead and just don't mention me in any conversation

Oh your poor DS Mongolia. And poor you because you have to deal with the fall out.

I had a big long reply typed out but unfortuantely my computer crashed (PITA) so I'll put down what I can remember. Perhaps you could counter comments with an additional 'Daddy shouldn't be saying that to, it's a grown ups problem'.

I'm wondering, with all you have said, whether reduced access would be such a bad thing, long term, for your DS? It gives your XH less opportunity to abuse him with these horrible lies. As his mum you will know best how that would affect him of course.

Sorry I can't offer more positive or practical advice.

"Despite big expense and time put into place for him to keep in touch with DS in a daily basis"

It strikes me that this might be a reason why he is doing it - because he knows that you have put a lot of effort in to helping him maintain contact and therefore it be less frustrating and draining for you and DS simply not to make the effort?

Thank you Janos, but I don't quite understand... do you mean that he is acting like that to "force" me to reduce contact?

He is free to contact him every day if he so wishes but he doesn't and is not expected to do it, however, the contact will be reduced anyway at exh's request in the next few months, despite his asking for it to be increased a couple of months ago. I hope that would make thing much more easier but I also suspect he may change his mind about this yet another time.

That's the other thing doing my mind, one day he wants more contact, the next less, keeps changing his mind about the subject but can't keep his mouth shut in front of DS (last time he told DS he was going to be more days with him before telling me, and then blamed it on "mummy not wanting to" even when he knew well that his job doesn't allow for him to have DS at his house as often as he wanted).

oh... and his solicitor is an expert on parental alienation, wonder if she is actually giving him instructions on how to properly alienate DS. Otherwise I can not imagine how the bloddy woman can't stop him.

Just quickly answering your first Q
Mongolia.

No, I don't think he is doing it to force you to reduce contact.

I think he is behaving like this because he KNOWS how much it will upset you. Controlling men (and yes some women) often use their children to get at their exes in this way precisely because they know how much it will hurt them.

It's another way of controlling you through the children. I'm sorry to say that he probably doesn't care too much for your DS if he is prepared to treat him this way (I suspect your DS will work this one out for himself anyway, not that it makes it easier to deal with I know ).

You may have already done this but I'm wondering if women's aid might be able to give you more helpful advice?

Another though and of course this may not work but what about mediation? Would your X consider that? You can do it without being in the same room.

Actually I've just re-read one of your earlier posts where you say DS doesn't believe his Dad and that's a tragedy.

It may actually be better for him not to believe his Dad given all he is coming out with given that he is an abusive, controlling liar!

BTW you should be congratulating yourself that your DS feels able to talk to you about this. That means you have a great relationship. Just keep giving him all your love and support.

Thanks again Janos. It is something to consider, unfortunately.

Actually, the last demand to reduce contact came just after he saw me with my boyfriend when DS wasn't with me. I think he did it so I had less "spare" time to see my boyfriend. Stupid situation really, we used to baby sit for them.

We have been already to mediation and only made the things worse .

I thought you might have.

Mediation with this type of man often doesn't work because they operate according to their own personal set of rules.

I'm set to go to mediation with my ex and I am not looking forward to it but feel I have to try. It's very tough isn't it.