exPhas invited me to play at supervised contact session

[cestlavielife]

what is he on?

" I would like to invite you to share our playing time at [contact centre], to
make a positive difference a big step forward and to offer them a
joyfull surprise. To show them our love for them."

i had to email him on fiancial issues - short story i moved out with kids becoz of his unpredictable, violent abusive behaviour. mental health issues. he would not accept separation, shoved me and smashed my new flat. now he on supervised contact at contact centre.

he says

I know from [teacher] that [dd3] is "brilliant", she really is special.
Well, our three children are and so are we!

Our children are wonderfully imperfect as you and me are, they came from
the highest expression of love and unselfishness of two people they
loved each other.

They certainly see more than you and me together. They are they way to a
new, to light, change, healing, and happiness.

I would like to invite you to share our playing time at [contact centre], to
make a positive difference a big step forward and to offer them a
joyfull surprise. To show them our love for them.

If you are happy with this, we could ask permission at [contact centre] and
Cafcass and go altogether with [supervisor] to [cafe] and share some time
and sun shine playing at the park near by. Lets make the most of the
tools we got right now

I would like to ask you and think about dd3 birthday in July to positively see and expect differently!
To approach things with a new attitude, so we can be together on her
birthday. Please think, but do not need answer me immediately.

Lets start with what a small and huge step, sharing time with the
children next time playing all together
Please consider this.

so, what is he on?
i moved out april 2008. 14 months ago...have repeated ad nauseum we are separated parents.

Sounds like he is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.

Is everyone here [i]really[/i] saying that no matter what he does, he will always be the same? It's the OP's prerogative not to see him, but it sends a clear message out to the children - i.e. `daddy is a dangerous man'. Maybe he has gone happy clappy. So what? Maybe he's spent hours talking to people and feels guilty for what he has done and is trying to make amends.

Who knows?

If that's the case that no matter what someone does to make amends for what has done in the past, there are an awful lot of perfect people round here who are purer than the driven snow.

sushine read the history here, he attacked their autistic child amongst other things.

I think op is doing well to even allow the contact she is

Agree with majority, short and sweet email to say you are separate parents and that the children have plenty of time to see what mum is all about and contact is about his relationship with his children not your relationship as a family

He doesn't sound like he is getting help for his mental health issues and still trying to blame you in some way

cestlavie - you have come so far. I think, although the kids aren't sure about their sessions with him, you should encourage them. But there your involvement ends. If he has changed - let tham see that, and benefit from that, and the professionals there take the appropriate steps. Meanwhile you are doing right by your kids and by you - if you think he should be absent from your dd3's birthday that's ok, say so, and definitely say no to any "let's be together for the children" crap after all you have been through.

lostdad, whilst I agree people can and do change, I'm sorry but as soon someone tries to hurt a child, I don't think they have the same rights as the rest of us to second chances

cestlavie - honest question to you.

What would he have to say and/or do to convince you he is the sort of parent you think he should be? Is there anything he could do?

Is it possible that he has changed he wants to prove to you and reassure you of things? Maybe someone has talked to him and explained how you are likely very concerned about how the children will be treated by him given his past history?

If you don't want to do what he suggests, politely decline. Don't throw it in his face say `thanks but no thanks'.

But keep an open mind and hope that what he has done is sincere, with the best of intentions and the end of a bad time for all concerned. That doesn't mean forgive him or forget what happened, but looking ahead, not back.

what gives you the right to sit there as judge, jury and executioner to this father?

Havent we all done things in our past that we are ashamed of??

I am someone that truly believes in father's rights and have been vocal on the subject here. I think father's deserve equal access to their children but not when a father has attacked one child and held the whole family hostage.

This father has access to his children in a safe environment (court ordered) and he is participating in direct and indirect contact.

He is now wanting whole family contact. Even without the control/violence aspect, very few people would be happy with that, I know I wouldn't. No one is saying he can't have access to the children. Just that op doesn't need to play 'happy famillies' to placate an unstable man

He sounds like he can't or won't differentiate between his lost relationship with you, and his future relationship with the DC.

If you took his violence, abuse and aggression out of the equation, would any other parent join the other one to 'play' happy families?

Would you go and do this with your ex lostdad?

"op doesn't need to play 'happy famillies' to placate an unstable man"

Exactly scaredoflove

OP is encouraging contact to take place in the setting that has been deemed appropriate by a court. Sounds fair to me.

If he's had mental health issues then he isnt going to be responsible for what he did in the past.

My ex did lots of unspeakable things that I know were instigated by his mental disorder. Whilst I dont think I could never forgive him the things he did to me, I accpet that his mental disorder with therapy and medication he will soon become better and he would integrate into society a changed person.

How do you know that this father hasnt gone through some kind of transformation? Answer: You dont, cos he hasnt been asked.

Whilst I understand any trepidation that Mum has, why dont you ask the right questions, see the proof for yourself, instead of jumping the gun and going into the your default setting?

Sunshine......op has already said way back, that his aggression and mental health problems aren't linked. Op was told this. So his aggression is part of him.

Same with my ex. And a court ordered psychiatric forensic assessment proved this. He tried to pull the ' mentalchealth issues' card also. Didn't work.

sunshine13, I agree that the OP does not and cannot know for sure if her ex's has had some major personality transformation. The only way that such a transformation can be assured is if there's a clear change in his long-term behaviour.

To give him the benefit of the doubt before there's any solid evidence of long-term change could very easily prove disastrous.

ILoveTIFFANY - I wouldn't play `happy families' (but as I said in an earlier post the OP's refusal to face him could have adverse impact on the children at some point).

But as we all know - doing stuff you don't want is part of being a parent.

For my part it has included the 300 mile move (after informing me in court she was doing this), going to court 7 times and representing myself (I would rather have teeth pulled quite frankly), seeing my son in a contact centre that I advised he would hate (and turned out to be the case) and gave up my dream career to be around for my son.

As for `OP is encouraging contact to take place in the setting that has been deemed appropriate by a court'

AnarchyAunt - perhaps you could explain that to my ex who breaks court orders when they don't suit her?

gp and psychiatrist told me time and time again that the violence agression and emotional blackmail are not part of his mental health issues. they cannot be treated unless he recognizes them.

he was violent and agressive before he went on anti depressants and during the time he was on anti depressants. it means nothing to say he is off them and "better".

he does not accept what he did. the first judge in oct 2008 suggested he write to the dcs to apologize for his behaviours, specfically for shoving and pushing me, for smashing the door in the flat and for holding us all hostage refusing to leave for two hours...

he wrote "i am sorry i have been depressed but the good news is i am on antidepressants and will get better".

Does that read like a man trying to manage/recover his mental health issues?????

Sunshine, you are reading a different page to me. Attacking an autistic child is my cut off for sympathy and empathy, regardless of illness.

they will be linked to a degree. Mental health is such a broad topic. If it's as severe as stated they will be linked.

`Does that read like a man trying to manage/recover his mental health issues?????'

Maybe you're right. Would you say a woman who suffered from post natal depression should have her child taken from her or receive help to get over it?

Would such a woman be cut off from your sympathy and empathy, regardless of illness?

if she attacked that child, absolutely and supervised and monitored until everyone was sure the illness was under control

Mental health is indeed a very broad subject matter. Two people with the same diagnosis can manifest considerably differently. However, with notable exceptions, mental health problems are not a 'get out of jail free' card that permit someone to behave badly. In fact, most mental health illnesses do not manifest any outward aggression (very often it is turned inwards, with just as devastating conseuqences). None of this is particularly relevant to the post, anyway, as OP has already said that a mental health PROFESSIONAL has stated that her XP's aggression is NOT linked to his mental health problems. His aggression is a part of his behaviour when he is WELL.

If anyone can lay their hands on the Lundy Bancroft book or do a bit of checking with Womens Aid (I don't have time, sorry), they will find the statistics to back up my claim that most men who are violent towards women DO NOT change. Yes, there are exceptions, but they are very rare and tend to follow many, many years of therapy. Most crimes can be genuinely repented and most people rehabilitated. Domestic abuse, however (and especially abuse directed towards a child), IMO falls into the same category as paedophilia - the chances of successful rehabilitation are SO slim that if anyone's safety is in question it is best to err on the side of caution, even if that means denying someone the opportunity to prove that they really have changed.

lostdad - ok, your ex breaks court orders. But OP is facilitating the contact ordered by the court, she just isn't prepared to go along too when she sees no benefit to anybody. She is recognising that the contact is important for the father and child/ren and doesn't want to disrupt that. She is (understandably) mistrustful of the motives of a man who has been violent, controlling, aggressive and abusive towards her and her children, and therefore does not want to commit herself to spending time with him at this point.

In short she is not your ex.

also, op isn't stopping contact. Read the OP!

She doesn't want to participate in the contact, that is all

OK. I will.

And you read my post and tell me where I say she is obliged to.

Funny this forum business - people having different opinions too, innit?

lostdad - i always appreciate your pov...

re: the pnd analogy - when i went to councselling in oct 2007 - after the horrrendous attack on our son, admittance to psych unit etc episode; one of the things the counsellor got me to talk about was - what was the relationship like before?

was this all great, then he got sick (like the woman with PND...an acute event).

the more i looked at myself/the relationship the more understood how unhappy i was and how bad it was, how controlling - this was the man who constantly criticised, told me i was overweight etcetc. who stayed at work late because as he admitted "he hated coming home to his disabled child".

the man who urged me to elave our nine month old son with his parents (aborad) as he ahd a work trip the next week and would pick him up then - the work trip got cancelled and he refused to go pick up "dont nag me or i wont go ever" as i begged and pleaded "go get him, please" - in the end the original planned one week stay with granparents turned into six weeks!!

the man of "Family values" who told his mother in december 2004 "well i will see you at your funeral then" because of some small annoyance (it turned out to be true, she died two months later) .

the man who told me many times "i am leaving you then" in rage but never did.

etc etc etc.

now i am happy to believe he has changed and will be responsible with the children. i want to believe i could hand them over to him for the weekend; happy for "shared parenting". i am not lostdad's ex.

BUT i have true concerns about his mental status (not depression, but personality issues) because if he wont accept shared parenting/that we are separated then there is a huge problem.

i question his motives for inviting me to contact - the children have limited contact because it is supervised and that is what he gets/what is paid for - why as a dad would he want to share this special time?

he doesnt have to prove to me -he has to prove to the children and the profressionals that he is safe. i will go with the childrens views and the professionals.

see
www.lundybancroft.com/art_risk_children.html

several apply to lesser or greater degree but this one is relevant - no new P but the refusal to acept relationship is over is a strong point here.

point j
Refusal to accept the end of the relationship, or to accept the mother's decision to begin a new relationship.

A batterer's refusal to accept his partner's decision to leave him, which often is accompanied by severe jealousy and possessiveness, has been linked to increased dangerousness in batterers (Weisz et al., 2000), including danger of homicide (Websdale, 1999), putting children at increased risk. We have observed clinically that those batterers who have high levels of these tendencies often also show increased use of children as tools of abuse or control post-separation. They may perceive the children as owned objects and therefore become intimidating if they learn that their is a new man in their children's lives.

Finally, even those batterers who welcome the end of a relationship should be evaluated for their level of desire to punish the mother for perceived transgressions from the past, or to establish paternal dominion over the children.

Relevant questions include: Is the batterer depressed or panicked about the break-up, or insisting that the relationship is not over?

Is he stalking her?

Did he abruptly demand custody or expanded visitation upon learning that the mother had decided definitively not to go back to him, or when she began a new romantic involvement? Has he ever threatened or assaulted a new partner of hers, or warned her not to let any man other than him be around the children? Has he attempted to frighten the children about the mother's new partner, or to induce guilt in them for developing an attachment to him?

more - Assessment of change in a batterer therefore should draw on multiple sources of information (not just the batterer's self-report), and include attention to the following issues at a minimum:

Has he made full disclosure of his history of physical and psychological abuse?

A batterer must overcome denial and minimization in order to confront his abusive behavior meaningfully (Adams, Bancroft, German, & Sousa, 1992; see Leberg, 1997 on the similar dynamic in treating child sexual abusers). It is common for abusers to claim to have changed while simultaneously denying most of the history of violence, and a skeptical view should be taken of such assertions.

Has he recognized that abusive behavior is unacceptable?

We find that some batterers who claim to have changed continue to justify their past violent or abusive behavior, usually through blaming the victim, thereby leaving an opening for using such justifications for future abuse. One indication of an abuser who may be making serious progress is his unqualified statements that his behavior was wrong.

Has he recognized that abusive behavior is a choice?

Some batterers may acknowledge that abuse is wrong but make the excuse that they lost control, were intoxicated, or were in emotional distress. Acceptance of full responsibility is indispensable for change (Adams et al., 1992), and needs to include recognition that abuse is intentional and instrumental (Pence & Paymar, 1993).

Does he show empathy for the effects of his actions on his partner and children?

As evidence of change, a batterer should be able to identify in detail the destructive impact his abuse has had (Pence & Paymar, 1993) and demonstrate that he feels empathy for his victims (Mathews, 1995; Edleson & Tolman, 1992), without shifting attention back to his own emotional injuries, grievances, or excuses.

www.lundybancroft.com/art_risk_children.html

i have suggested to the dcs increased contact/unsupervised - i have played devils advocate - "wont it be nice when you can see dad more , outside the contact centre" - their looks tell me otherwise...

the dds are teling me - "we dont want to be with dad alone" "we happy to coninue at the contact centre" "we want another adult present" "we dont want him to come to the house to pick us up - send someone else, and have that person stay with us with dad"

what about the oldest (autistic, who does want to see dad), if it moves out of contact centre: should dad pick him up at our house? no. dont let dad in. someone else should pick him up. what about on the doorstep? no, dont open door to dad. dont start chatting with him.

that is their level of worry about what he might do - four sessions in contact centre -which by all accounts have gone well - have not been enough to persuade them otherwise... it will be a long process before they can trust him.

as i said, i have tried to be positive and open.

i appreciate the povs here!

sorry to divert - but can i actually express my biggest fears?

which is that given his history of depression/mental illness (or not) - btw i forgot to say that when i met him in 1994 he was in group therapy for depression so is a cyclical thing which has occured in the past as well -

that he will do a "paul hogan" or other father/mother thing (and there have been recent cases of mothers so is not a anti-dad thing) and - on an unsupervised acess, will harm the children (and himself or not).

he cant get ME - i wont be in contact, but he might get madder and madder that i won't give in to him...and that might explode.

his meanderings are irrational and - as per the advice on here - not "sane".

i have read the histories of men/woemn who do this - the background is episodes of mental illness and not accepting relationship over, in many cases.

he fits the bill. he is doing nothing to prove otherwise. these fathers/mothers all "loved" their kids... but many had shown anger in the past. they couldnt accept the rbeakdown . and yes i have read the blogs saying: well what do you expect when he only got to see the kids once a fortnight? it's the ex's fault...

i want to be told that the evidence is that he is totally responsible and understands the situation. but he does not.

that he truly does want to do what is best for the children when he is with them.