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When to expect toddler baby to start overnights with dad for first time

32 replies

Unexpectedlysinglemum · 26/06/2024 20:39

Please could people advise on their experiences of contact and court ordered progression to overnights for toddlers when one parents has never done overnights with the child.
Parents split during pregnancy but both (now) have PR (given to dad to avoid court, reluctantly).

Toddler (under 18m) has lived with mother with father usually visiting 1-2 times a week, takes toddler out and about to local parks etc. Has not yet taken toddler to own home which is about 45 mins away (his choice, still getting the new home ready apparently).

Father has recently shared he’s moved in with a new girlfriend and her children. Would now suddenly like the new arrangement to be 50/50 to mirror what new girlfriend’s children do with them.

Mother feels this is very sudden, toddler is not ready for this big living change, too much too soon, and also feels father has not yet enough experience of parenting and also he is not the most safety conscious or most sensible person and has volatile temper (only a tiny bit of concrete proof of this though). Baby still cries out for mum in the middle of the night and has never spent a night away from her.

Parents do not have a good relationship or communicate well, little trust either way. He has threatened and bullied her in the past and not listened to advice for keeping baby safe.

Father feels he has enough parenting experience now from spending time with new girlfriend’s older children so 50/50 would be ‘fair’ (he pays child maintenance very reluctantly despite it being far less than half the nursery fees).

Mediation is planned.

Has anyone been in a similar situation and it’s gone to court? Was 50/50 agreed? If not, what was agreed? If a progression was expected towards overnight and then longer periods away what age did that start and how long was the child separated from resident parent from from at first? What age did overnights start for the first time? What factors do they take into account when deciding?

I am wondering what I have to agree to now to avoid the risk of a court order of 50/50 or anything close to that which right now I don’t think is in babies interest to suddenly have a big change and not have the language to understand why or accept verbal reassurances. It’s great that baby enjoys afternoons out with his dad and they can bond then, but I feel that the bedtime routine and waking up next to mum is important to feel safe and secure. I also feel baby would be much happier with an overnight when he has more language.

Ps not looking for opinions on what’s right and wrong as I know people here will either think strongly 50/50 is best, regardless of a child’s normal routine up till now, or babies need to be with mums, I’m wondering if there is any actual examples from court as it’s a bit of an unusual one for someone to want nothing and then suddenly want everything. I’m just not sure what a court would think about this.

OP posts:
Holymolypuddingpie · 26/06/2024 20:48

I really feel for you, this is my worst nightmare. My son is 2.5 years and is no where near ready to spend a night away from me in my opinion! But I know a lot would disagree with me :(

Aylestone · 26/06/2024 21:04

50/50 absolutely no way. However I do feel that dad should be having far more contact than he does now, including overnights. Though you say it’s him refusing to have the baby over to his house? How does that work? You can’t go from having no visits to the house at all, to suddenly having 50% custody. Can he at least agree that he needs to start having contact at his house and building it up gradually? That’s what a court will likely order anyway. He’ll look ridiculous going in and stating ‘well I didn’t want the baby at all until my new girlfriend moved in, but now I want him half the week’. I can see who’s going to end up doing the parenting..

Aylestone · 26/06/2024 21:07

Realising I’ve not really answered your questions, it will go on a case by case basis depending on the circumstances. What do YOU think is a fair and reasonable build up of contact at the moment? They’re meant to go with what’s in the best interests of the child. If it were me I’d say starting off with a couple of days a week contact at his house, building up the hours to the point where he has overnights maybe 1-2 times a week

Unexpectedlysinglemum · 26/06/2024 22:17

I think I would like him to get used to napping there and get reassurance that has gone ok. Maybe for two months if he goes there 1-2 nights a week?
id also want to be reassured he’d giving baby proper meals. At the moment he just gives him snacks when they’re out and way more milk than he needs despite me constantly giving him examples of proper food that he can and will eat. Not sure why - lazy or disorganized or not too confident? Or cheap and not wanting to buy a full kids meal. Will ask (politely) in mediation what’s going on.

if the napping goes really well then I think maybe an overnight once a fortnight to start with and then see how that goes and if he comes back ok then next day.

when he started nursery he was really traumatized and wouldn’t eat sleep or drink milk and would whimper all evening afterwards and would scream and cry mama at drop offs. He did settle after a couple of weeks but I’m still traumatized from that memory as he just didn’t understand what was happening, but I HAD to send him to nursery as I need to work. There’s no reason overnights HAVE to start anytime soon in my view.

it’s a big shame as if we got on better and I trusted him I could have him over here for bathtimes etc so it would be a smoother transition but the man has threatened and traumatized me so much I have to be very boundaries with him. Eg I wouldn’t put it past him finding something he thinks is danergois in my house and taking a photo of it as ‘evidence’ that I’m a bad parent. I’m pretty scared of him and what he’s capable of tbh he is ruthless.

pre pandemic when single I was a big sociable party girl so I am dying for some freedom tbh - if I thought baby would cope I’d send him there and enjoy some fun nights out. But I really don’t feel he’s ready yet :-(

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Unexpectedlysinglemum · 26/06/2024 22:54

Holymolypuddingpie · 26/06/2024 20:48

I really feel for you, this is my worst nightmare. My son is 2.5 years and is no where near ready to spend a night away from me in my opinion! But I know a lot would disagree with me :(

Thank you. Yes it’s so hard - there seems to be a presumption now that little children should be pass the parcel back and forth between diffenet homes even when it’s a massive change for them and would be scary and disruptive.

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TableTabler · 26/06/2024 23:08

Court will award 50/50 usually unless there's a safeguarding issue. He has pr so they will start at 50/50

Unexpectedlysinglemum · 26/06/2024 23:25

TableTabler · 26/06/2024 23:08

Court will award 50/50 usually unless there's a safeguarding issue. He has pr so they will start at 50/50

Gosh even when little baby has never slept there or been with him in the evenings?

OP posts:
Aylestone · 27/06/2024 08:49

TableTabler · 26/06/2024 23:08

Court will award 50/50 usually unless there's a safeguarding issue. He has pr so they will start at 50/50

They absolutely will not. Scaremongering idiots who make up legal advice should get an instant ban imo 🙄

CultOfRamen · 27/06/2024 08:59

This is so hard. It depends on so many factors.
I felt pushed into too many overnights too early, 2/3 per week(in a row) and it he refused to pull back until she was eventually so unbelievably miserable at 9 i with held her without his consent. Just finished three years of family court. He was awarded 0 overnights but she’s now 12 and after so many years of being forced to go she will, I believe, never go again.

my advice would be to transition as slowly as possible with the opportunity to cease the transition if it’s not working. Have counselling consent written into your agreement so you can both be guided by an independent party.

also keep your mediation agreement as an informal agreement don’t have it confirmed by the court, until it’s been given time to see if it works.

it’s so hard to pack your kid off to the other parent but they do have a right to spen meaningfull time with their other parent. Have counselling for yourself, it’s incredibly hard to stay impartial- unfortunately some element of distress at transitioning between houses will always be an issue.

Doltontweedle · 27/06/2024 09:13

TableTabler · 26/06/2024 23:08

Court will award 50/50 usually unless there's a safeguarding issue. He has pr so they will start at 50/50

You speak for all courts and all judges do you? For a start there’s no ‘will’ or ‘won’t’ in any case, it comes down to the judges decision on the day. And only 30% of fathers who go for 50/50 get awarded it. To immediately get 50/50, the child generally has to be of primary school age, have a very good relationship with that parent. Their living circumstances will be reviewed (where will the child sleep if living with dad’s girlfriend and her children), there’s usually a huge emphasis on housing space, and they will be checking whether either parent has other children residing there for visitation. They will check dads work schedule for when the child is in education, and he will need to prove he can provide a stable living environment. They will assess the child’s physical and emotional wellbeing, and emotional needs. Whether there’s conflict between the parents or a clash or parenting methods. Whether there’s been a past history of abuse (which there has). Given what the op has said so far, it is not in the child’s best interests for the father to have him half of the time when so far he has refused over nights himself (but allowed his girlfriends children to move in). Also it’s generally accepted that children under primary age need one primary residence and parent. I think it would be extremely unusual for a 1 year old to be taken away from their mum for any length of time, he may not even get overnights at all yet, let alone 50/50.

TableTabler · 27/06/2024 17:04

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TableTabler · 27/06/2024 17:05

You clearly don't want your ex to have anything to do with his kid so just stop all contact then

Doltontweedle · 27/06/2024 20:51

TableTabler · 27/06/2024 17:05

You clearly don't want your ex to have anything to do with his kid so just stop all contact then

Are you ok hun 😂😂

Babadook76 · 27/06/2024 20:53

TableTabler · 26/06/2024 23:08

Court will award 50/50 usually unless there's a safeguarding issue. He has pr so they will start at 50/50

No they won’t. Not with a child this young with the exes history and living arrangements

Unexpectedlysinglemum · 27/06/2024 23:21

CultOfRamen · 27/06/2024 08:59

This is so hard. It depends on so many factors.
I felt pushed into too many overnights too early, 2/3 per week(in a row) and it he refused to pull back until she was eventually so unbelievably miserable at 9 i with held her without his consent. Just finished three years of family court. He was awarded 0 overnights but she’s now 12 and after so many years of being forced to go she will, I believe, never go again.

my advice would be to transition as slowly as possible with the opportunity to cease the transition if it’s not working. Have counselling consent written into your agreement so you can both be guided by an independent party.

also keep your mediation agreement as an informal agreement don’t have it confirmed by the court, until it’s been given time to see if it works.

it’s so hard to pack your kid off to the other parent but they do have a right to spen meaningfull time with their other parent. Have counselling for yourself, it’s incredibly hard to stay impartial- unfortunately some element of distress at transitioning between houses will always be an issue.

Thank you for sharing your experience, how early? Were you pressured by ex or by lawyers? It sounds really stressful for all of you and a shame that your daughter and you felt forced. I’m glad for you she’s old enough to choose now

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Unexpectedlysinglemum · 27/06/2024 23:24

Doltontweedle · 27/06/2024 09:13

You speak for all courts and all judges do you? For a start there’s no ‘will’ or ‘won’t’ in any case, it comes down to the judges decision on the day. And only 30% of fathers who go for 50/50 get awarded it. To immediately get 50/50, the child generally has to be of primary school age, have a very good relationship with that parent. Their living circumstances will be reviewed (where will the child sleep if living with dad’s girlfriend and her children), there’s usually a huge emphasis on housing space, and they will be checking whether either parent has other children residing there for visitation. They will check dads work schedule for when the child is in education, and he will need to prove he can provide a stable living environment. They will assess the child’s physical and emotional wellbeing, and emotional needs. Whether there’s conflict between the parents or a clash or parenting methods. Whether there’s been a past history of abuse (which there has). Given what the op has said so far, it is not in the child’s best interests for the father to have him half of the time when so far he has refused over nights himself (but allowed his girlfriends children to move in). Also it’s generally accepted that children under primary age need one primary residence and parent. I think it would be extremely unusual for a 1 year old to be taken away from their mum for any length of time, he may not even get overnights at all yet, let alone 50/50.

Thanks you this is really reassuring. There is definitely conflict he has vague threats to me regularly and starts arguments over things like me asking that baby wears a coat in winter and asking him to replace shoes that he looses while out with him (he thinks his child maintenance covers that). He threatens court constantly. But then doesn’t do the ‘next step’ towards whatever it is that he’s asking for.

OP posts:
Unexpectedlysinglemum · 27/06/2024 23:27

TableTabler · 27/06/2024 17:05

You clearly don't want your ex to have anything to do with his kid so just stop all contact then

No I have invited this man who was awful to me into my home regularly and have found safe activities for him to do with baby and help them see each other twice a week. I am supporting them to build a relationship. It’s this weird rush to have over night sleepovers away from home that I’m not comfortable with. I don’t think toddler is ready yet and he won’t understand what’s happening. I think it would be better to wait until he has more language so can talk about what’s happening.

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Mumofteenandtween · 27/06/2024 23:32

I would cheerfully point out that if he has 50:50 the. He will have to pay 59% of the nursery fees. He may be a lot less keen when he discovers just how much it will cost him!

Unexpectedlysinglemum · 27/06/2024 23:33

CultOfRamen · 27/06/2024 08:59

This is so hard. It depends on so many factors.
I felt pushed into too many overnights too early, 2/3 per week(in a row) and it he refused to pull back until she was eventually so unbelievably miserable at 9 i with held her without his consent. Just finished three years of family court. He was awarded 0 overnights but she’s now 12 and after so many years of being forced to go she will, I believe, never go again.

my advice would be to transition as slowly as possible with the opportunity to cease the transition if it’s not working. Have counselling consent written into your agreement so you can both be guided by an independent party.

also keep your mediation agreement as an informal agreement don’t have it confirmed by the court, until it’s been given time to see if it works.

it’s so hard to pack your kid off to the other parent but they do have a right to spen meaningfull time with their other parent. Have counselling for yourself, it’s incredibly hard to stay impartial- unfortunately some element of distress at transitioning between houses will always be an issue.

What is counseling consent?

OP posts:
POTC · 27/06/2024 23:43

I reluctantly agreed to every Friday night from age 1. He did the first 3 times at the home of a mutual friend who had a slightly older child so I could feel reassured that someone else was there to spot any errors. We did that for a year, then the new gf decided it was causing too many problems and he stopped contact. DS is 17 now and not seen the twit for 15 years!

Unexpectedlysinglemum · 28/06/2024 00:23

POTC · 27/06/2024 23:43

I reluctantly agreed to every Friday night from age 1. He did the first 3 times at the home of a mutual friend who had a slightly older child so I could feel reassured that someone else was there to spot any errors. We did that for a year, then the new gf decided it was causing too many problems and he stopped contact. DS is 17 now and not seen the twit for 15 years!

This is infuriating

OP posts:
CultOfRamen · 28/06/2024 08:13

Unexpectedlysinglemum · 27/06/2024 23:21

Thank you for sharing your experience, how early? Were you pressured by ex or by lawyers? It sounds really stressful for all of you and a shame that your daughter and you felt forced. I’m glad for you she’s old enough to choose now

She started at 4 y.o but he had not seen her for two and half years. He manipulated me in mediation as I live overseas and he refused to let my DD travel overseas to visit my dying mother

CultOfRamen · 28/06/2024 08:15

Unexpectedlysinglemum · 27/06/2024 23:33

What is counseling consent?

usually both parents are required to consent to a child attending counselling, most reputable therapists won’t see a child without both parents consent. My DD needed counselling but ex refused for years until it was eventually court ordered

Unexpectedlysinglemum · 02/11/2024 13:52

Hi everyone thank you for your help on this...
to update, we have had mediation twice, the first focused a lot on safety and we agree to get our baby used to napping at his house first which he can now do. We had an awkward and stressful Moment a couple of weeks ago when the ex told me the night before his Saturday with our son 'he napped here fine last time so he'll stay the whole weekend this time I'll bring him back Sunday evening' which put me in a very difficult position as I didn't think he'd cope well with a whole two days and overnight all at once.
But now we've been to mediation again I've been able to talk through safety concerns about over nights - he has absolutely promised that he won't drink when baby is there and claims he doesn't drink much as his girlfriend doesn't - not sure if I believe that - but I believe that he will lay off it for his first nights at least. I don't have any proof otherwise unless I let it go to court and ask for hair strands. I am so scared of court though. Fingers crossed baby will sleep ok - he's never been without me at night time before.
The mediators really pressured me to agree to one overnight a week immediately , ex asked for every Saturday (not a chance he would have stuck to that) I was firm and said I wanted to see how he got on at first and then talk later about increasing if all ok. She said that baby was missing out on time with his dad and it wasn't fair to him but also said he will be upset and we should expect him to be upset but also said I shouldn't assume he'd be upset - I couldn't win. I emphasized that I did want overnights to happen slowly and safely and comfortable and if everyone is so sure he will be distressed I don't want to commit to distressing our baby 5 times this month I'd rather commit to only three and hope it's all good and if it is then discuss increasing.
So we'll see.
It's a hard thing to hand toddler over to such an angry and aggressive man who literally hates me (he was very very accusatory towards me in mediation and they didn't hold any floor time for my explanations of his accusations which may have contributed to them being pressurizing to me).
Wish me luck for tonight! I'm so nervous for him!

OP posts:
Unexpectedlysinglemum · 02/11/2024 13:56

Oh also the ex has lost his job and has managed to blame this on me- apparently I have caused him to have burnout Hmm
So this is a strange one with his schedule as he's now free in the week and wants to see him in the week (in addition to his usual one afternoon a week) but I don't want to disrupt his nursery routine as ex is looking for another job and we don't know what the hours or location will be for that yet

OP posts:
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