My friends ex p keeps taking her ds to the pub on his access days.

[Oblomov]

She has been to court over access. Ex p does pay £50 maintenance per week, as court stipulated. But cancels access at the last minute.
He keeps taking ds to the pub, becasue ds (3)tells my friend that this is where he has been.
And her ds, going to ex p on a sunday is a total nightmare on a monday behaviour wise. Totally disobediant, shouting, tantrums, knocking his head on the wall. Rest of the fortnight he is fine.
I suggested that she was more upfront with her exp, and said .. from now on, this is o.k. , this not, or else I will stop access, ( they are due to go back to court in May. my friend suspects that ex p will then ask for an overnight stay)
Ex p swans off to spain, but has no money for ... a pair of shoes for ds.
Exp has not paid his phone bill so is uncontactable.
What advice shall I give my friend, please ?

bump ?
Is this in the wrong section ?

They might be going to the pub simply for lunch or to use the toiket if it's across from the park or because it has a wacky warehouse. Ok they probably aren't but try not to jump to the worst case conclusions right away. Get your facts straight first before your friend goes in guns blazing.

Tell her to write him a letter saying that she understand that he has been taking child to the pub. Could he confirm that he is in fact taking the child to age appropriate places as a pub is not usually considered a suitable place for a 3 to spend quality.

Ask for his confirmation that he is not using a pub as a venue for contact time and ask for that confirmation within 2 weeks.

I would also suggest she gives him a list of suitable places he might like to consider. You/she probably know the area better in terms of child friendly activities - library, park, indoor play centre, ponds with ducks to feed, swimming pool, activity days such as zoo, beach etc

Try and keep the letter neutral and non accusationary (is that a word?!) and subject specific. You are simply trying to ensure that ds is receiving proper care in a suitable environment which takes account of his age and requirements, and you are not saying he is a bed parent for taking his son to the pub.

See what response she gets (if any) and then take it from there.

gilly

gilly, not he lived in pubs before. And takes ds there ALL DAY.

This is no child friendly pub thing.
This is taking his child to his usual haunts.

She has tackled him about this. His response was:
" I'll deny it. He's my son. I'll do what I f*king want, when I fking, want and theres f*k all you can do about it"

Should the pub be encouraging people to have their children there all day? If he's hanging round the bar it sounds a bit dodgy legally. Presumably it can't be denied successfully if there are witnesses.

I have asked friend about this. But she says these few pubs are his old haunts and no one would ever dob on him, that her ds was there.

I did suggest , that on day that ex p had ds, she drives around and takes picture of his car there at ...11am , then still there at ...
Is this necessary though ?

Hallgerda, thank you - we are on both threads here - ha ha - sorry I didn't know which section to put this in .

Would it be a breach of the pub's licensing to have children hanging around for long periods or in the bar area? Could it be potentially something to raise with the council (i.e. dob on the pub rather than the man)?

If he is taking him once a week i dont see the problem, i would'nt take my kids to a pub for the day but each to their own, as long as the father is'nt getting drunk and is looking after his son then i don't see a major problem. Does his son complain about going to the pub?

Marne, no ds doesn't complain, but my friend thinks it is inappropriate.
Plus all the other bits, unreliable, last minute cancellation, no money but minimum, and the fact that ds is so very badly behaved afterwards.
She does feel that ex p just treats ds like a trophy son and continues with his old lifestyle.

Surely the pub shouldn't be allowing a 3YO in the pub? We can't even take ours in to use the loo unless accompanied (9 and 11) and they can't stay unless eating.

It's not really a safe/nurturing enviroment. He'll learn all sorts of language, for one thing.

My point exactly captainmummy. But no pub is going to turn away business.
What can my friend actually DO ?
And what about all the other issues. Ex p is a nightmare. Trophy dad. Unrelaible. And ds is a nightmare upon return.
What does my friend actually DO about all of this.

agree with hallgerda - report the pub. Then if it's raided/questioned, maybe the landlord will think twice about letting him in. Not much else you can do, except wait for the Access Review i suppose.

Poor kid.

Its not illegal to take children in pubs, both my locals allow children, one has a restaurant area and the other one dont, taking a child in one for a lemonade for an hour now and again isnt going to hurt but if its a case where he is there with the child for hours and getting drunk and not giving the child any dinner then its a cause for concern, pubs now have a non smoking policy so wont be inhaling cigarette smoke either.

Until I got to the bit about your friends ds being 3 I honestly thought I knew you!!

XP is supposed to have the boys at weekends, a request he made through the courts. So far he has cancelled at least every other weekend, and right at the very last minute. Today for example, I called him to find out what time I was dropping them to him (1/2 hr before I usually would do), and he said he wasn't having them, hadn't even bothered to tell me.

When he does actually have them, they spend the entire weekend in the pub. ds1 is 6, so he tells me all about where they have been & until what time etc. They are usually in the pub in a Fri night until 9pm when they have to leave. They are with me on a Sat because xp has community service, and their behaviour is atrocious. But seeing as they don't get to bed until so late, it's hardly surprising. He then has them Sat nights & then spends all afternoon Sunday in the pub with them. The pubs that he goes to are not Wacky Warehouse type pubs.

I am keeping a diary of when he cancels, and how much notice he is giving me when he does cancel. I'm also writing down what ds1 tells me they have done. Obviously for your friend this is more difficult as her ds is only 3, so won't be able to accurate times etc, but se could still write down that ds says he has been in the pub with his father.

WRT behaviour, I just try to keep everything as I would any other day of the week. Yes, it's hard when the LO is playing up & acting out of character, but I think consistency is the key.

Hi - you say he parks his car outsde the pub - is he drinking??

If he says he will deny taking the child to the pub etc then the easiest way to deal with it is to get the proof. Use an MP3 player to record any conversations. You can't submit this in court, but you can transcribe it and that can be admitted. Keep a copy of the recording so you can show if required it is the same as your transcription.

Also there are plenty of ways to be seen in the pub. Just because his regulars won't dob him in doesn't mean that a 'non regular' can't go into teh pub and make a note of times, dates and what the child was doing.

His father has responsibilities to his child, and not rights to do what he likes regardless. A child must be taken care of appropriately and be seen to be thriving. Speak to the CAFCASS officer about any concerns, and ask them to check up on the visits.

Gilly

Tinkerbel - I am amazed that normal pubs allow children of 3 in. Our local Whetherspoons won't allow kids inafter 6pm even if they are eating (they have to have orderdd and eaten by 5.30)

I had this problem with XP. It really annoyed me.
I mean I rarely take the DC's to pubs, when we were still togetehr around once a week we would go to the local and I'd take the DC's and meet my friends and their dc's for lunch so he seemed to think it was okay for him to continue taking them on his access days.

I told him I wasn't having it, firstly he was having them once a fortnight, for that time he was meant to be spending quality time with them and I did not want him consuming alcohol as he was in sole charge of them. Secondly, I didn't want them around drunk people!
When I had taken them before we had sat in the restuarant part with all my friends and their children and none of us drank so it was a completely different scenario, but to him he'd just though 'VS took them to the pub, I will'.

So I had to explain the difference in him taking them.

He no longer has them though, he didn;t stop taking them to the pub, he also used to cancel access with half hours notice even though we would drive 40 miles to take them to him etc.

Now he is only allowed to see them when they go to his mum or sisters.

I'd tell your friend to try talking to him at first, he may just not have thought about how it's different for the NRP to spend their one day of access in a pub in comparison to the resident parent spending a few hours in one.

I'd tell her to suggest that if he doesn't stop taking DS to the pub then he will only be allowed supervised access.

I doubt she'll need witness statements that eh ahs been in the pub either, though if she is worried, then turning up at said pub a few hours after DS has been dropped off may be a good idea. I know when I went into the local once to see if the DC's were there his friends were only too happy to tell me where he was, and not in a bad way, they just thought I needed to see him and the kids so were being helpful.

I have been in this exact situation. xp was seeing ds 1 day a week and taking him to the pub for the duration of this. I found this highly inappropriate as the only contact he was having was spent in a pub, not what i considered quality time. I felt as xp was seeing ds only 1 day a week (if that) he should spend the time bonding... going swimming, feeding the ducks, going to the park. Children are very influential and his behaviour in a pub is prob not that of a role modle. I personally think that she should give him an ultimatum (this is what i did) and say that unless he uses his contact for a more appropriate activity then he would have to stay at the family home with ds. luckily it worked for me and infact his attitude has changed.
I think its appauling for xp to be taking ds to the pub. My opinion would be to give him the untimatum and if necessairy get evidence. At the end of the day ur friend is the main carer for the child and if she doesnt like what xp is doing then he should have the consideration to change his actions!!!!

Been away for the weekend. So sorry for delay in replying. Thank you for all your posts.
I am so glad to see that some people understand and do not think I (she) is being unreasonable.
I did post this in another section ( not knowing where to start the thread) and some people thought that this was o.k.
And so I started to doubt it myself.
But no, if you only have one days access per week or fortnight,( I am not sure which, in this case) then being in the pub, for hours at a time, even if you are not actually drinking, is not o.k. Your child is around drunk people. Often swearing. And you SHOULD BE, in the park, feeding ducks, swimming, or just about anything else really.
I will pass on your comments.
Thanks alot.

My dh thinks her ex p, who he vaguely knows 'of', is a waste of space.
I think that his effect on her ds is just totally disruptive.
I think she should try and get access totally stopped ( but hey, thats just ME !!). He intends to start asking for overnight stays and holidays, say for a week. Can you imagine this man pissed , with his ds in .... spain ?
She wants to curb all of this before it begins.
I was kind of hoping for practical suggestions of what she actually needs to do :
evidence, speak to a lawyer, contact the court, etc, to stop all this nonsense

I have only skim read this, so excuse me if I have not got the gist of everything, but my dh was a SAHD for my son when he was a toddler. DS and dh spend a lot of time in pubs - taking ds swimming or to museums, play sessions wasn't really dh's thing and of course all these activities were dominated by mothers. I did worry at the amount of pub time, but ds was well looked after, met lots of nice people and it did him no long term harm. IME lots of dads do different, more 'blokish' types of things with their children.

But I know there is much more to this than the pub angle and lots more to complain about. IMO the pub thing may be clouding the issue a bit?