13 Yr old not wanting to see Dad. Dad trying to force extra contact

[NeedSleepNow]

Sorry in advance for the long post!

Ex was emotionally abuse, particularly to our eldest son (now age 13) we separated 18 months ago mainly due to the abuse and the affect it was having on the older children . No court order in place, but at mediation we agreed the children (ages 6, 10, 13) would live with me, see him 1 night in the week and go every other weekend to him 10am Sat to lunchtime Sunday. Two days after mediation he started saying he never agreed to that schedule and now tells the children at every opportunity that I am stop them seeing him, I am unfair, he has lost everything due to me, had no home, so him having a proper relationship with him. The ridiculous thing is that he never did anything with them when he lived with us, just say in the sofa watching TV whilst I did everything for years.

The older two did not like staying at his flat when the went. He isn't set up to have them (one sleeps in his bed with him, one on blow up bed, the other on sofa) so come back tired and grouchy. He also won't let one of them sleep with a night light on as he refused to believe she is scared of the dark, says he will not allow his child to fear something. Overnights only started happening after mediation as the mediator pushed for it.

The eldest says he hates his dad, cries a lot to me at home about how he has ruined his life, he never wants to see him again. He suffered a lot of emotional abuse and his confidence has been shattered (I am going to get him some counselling as it is consuming all aspects of his life at the moment and I feel is mental health is really suffering).

Ex was meant to be taking them out last week and eldest didn't want to go. He was crying telling his dad he didn't want to go and dad was shouting as usual, saying how much he is spoilling things for him & the other children. Eventually son got in the car and I spoke to ex, pointed out how upset & angry son is with him and he storms to car and starts shouting at son. Drives off and tells them the whole car journey how mummy had destroyed his life, he has lost everything, Mummy is unfair and stopping him seeing them....

Son rings me later in the day to say Dad is trying to force him to go for dinner with him one day. Saying you need to tell Mum you WANT to go out just with me. Son was crying about this whilst telling me in whispers so his Dad didn't hear. Next day I heard his dad doing the same thing on the phone "have you told mum about dinner yet, it doesn't matter what she thinks if you tell her this is what you want", son tells me after in tears that he does not want to see his Dad. Last night son showed me a text from his Dad about it again but this time saying have you told Mum that you are now having dinner with just me one night a week every week or spending time with me on our own every weekend. So Ex now wants to have either an extra evening a week or time every weekend with him and is manipulatively trying to get son to say that this is his idea that he wants to do this with his Dad. In reality I have son sobbing at home, tears streaming down his face begging not to have to see him every again, saying how awful his life is...

I have always encouraged a relationship with their Dad but I feel forcing a child when they really don't want to is not in their interests. At 13 surely he should know or have a good understanding of what he wants/needs? Ex is a real bully and son finds it very hard to stand up to him (as do I, he can be aggressive & very manipulative). How would you approach this?

You don’t force a child to see someone they don’t want to see

at 13, your son’s wishes will be taken into consideration.

if your son can’t stand up to his dad, then you need to step in and say it for him. I know this isn’t easy, I am in a similar position myself.

please also be aware that once your son stops seeing his dad (if that is what happens), the problems change. Your ex May well step up pressure on siblings. Your son may well feel awful that his siblings have to continue seeing your ex. The younger siblings will also have a range of emotions about the situation changing.

out of my 3 dc, only the youngest (now 10) still sees my ex. Middle dc stopped going age 12, restarted for a bit (about 8 months), then stopped again. Will visit for a family occasion (eg sibling birthday)

eldest dc had periods of not going, but mostly went. Found it very difficult and constantly needed me to tell ex what she was finding difficult (has significant learning disability). Now doesn’t go at all, except fo family occasions (eg is visiting a relative staying with ex this week)

youngest has found it very difficult to carry on going to his dad’s. He misses his siblings (middle dc in particular, as they are very close), and hates missing EOW with her. He has also said that he gets a lot of inappropriate talk from his dad, asking about what has gone wrong, emotional guilt and manipulation, etc, and he too stopped going for a while as this became too much. He was only 8 or 9 at the time, but I was happy (well, not happy, but prepared) to tell ex why ds had stopped going, as ds wasn’t able to. He now goes for contact, but as he is alone he doesn’t always enjoy it, and would sometimes rather be with the rest of us.

I am sorry you and your dc are in this situation. I have always told my dc that I will step in if needed, and that is my job as their parent. Middle dc will now speak up to ex a bit more, and eldest will also tell him bluntly what is going wrong, but he doesn’t listen. Counselling them through having a father who seemingly doesn’t care enough to listen to their needs is far harder than standing up for them and telling ex what they want.

Your poor boy. Have you confronted your ex about how he is ruining his relationship with his son by inflicting the same emotional abuse on him as what ended your marriage? Does he have any awareness of what he's doing? I would absolutely allow the eldest to stop going and if your ex kicks off, tell him he can take you to court where you will happily detail exactly what's been going on and the damage his behaviour is inflicting on your son. As an older child, the court will take your son's wishes into account. In the meantime, get him some counselling because that could be used to strengthen your case.

@Inkpotlover i pointed out what he was doing to the children (but mainly our eldest) so many times during our marriage but it was always someone else's fault. Mine for not parenting properly, son's for not behaving or listening properly, he also used his own depression ad an excuse for behaving badly. He refuses to take any responsibility and still sees his relationship issues as my fault.

I have told our eldest that he does not have to go but now ex is trying to get him to pretend to me that he wants to see him an extra night in the week and each weekend. At this rate I worry that son will end up having a breakdown, he's struggling to cope as it is. As soon as he is back at school I am going to speak with the head of year and see if they can offer any support and suggest any counselling services.

I would advise that the eldest stops going, if your ex wants to push it he can go to court. Your eldest is old enough to make his own mind up and you most probably have sufficient evidence from messages that this is not a case of parental alienation. Get some legal advice from a family solicitor. Definitely speak to the school.

Thank you @ElfDragon , I know I need to step in and stand up to ex for my children's sake. I just find it hard after years of being worn down, shouted over, having no voice around him. So far I have played things safe, encouraging the kids to go, trying to placate my ex and keep things amicable. The problem is he can only be amicable when he has his own way and that can not happen in this situation. He takes it out on the kids as soon as I say something he doesn't like.

That must be hard for your youngest dc being the only one who goes regularly now. My youngest had a pretty good relationship with his dad so is always happy to go and our middle child would probably be happy to go most of the time but not overnight. Maybe that will change once we have sold the fmh and he can buy somewhere where they can have proper beds. We are about to try to sort out our finances which will be another major issue, he is already telling everyone I take all his money and everything he ever worked for so he will become furious if I don't agree to a straight 50/50 split of everything immediately.

Thank you @Biscuitandacuppa . I have a good solicitor so I am going to arrange a meeting with her next week and will speak with the school once son is back. Unfortunately he is desperately unhappy at school as he has struggled to make friends at secondary. I really worry about his mental health as he seems to find very little enjoyment in anything at the moment, dislikes school and then worried about seeing his dad in his free time.

Stop contact. See that weight lifted.

Let him seek legal advice. Expect a nasty solicitor letter... Unless it's a court order don't be bullied.

A judge would allow a 13yo to choose how much contact he has with his dad so I wouldn't force him to go. I'd also be gently suggesting that he might want to mute his dad. Must be stressful getting the messages and not going us likely to mean some horrible messages.

Thank you, unfortunately son would still see him for the mid week contact as that is currently here in the fmh - as ex loves to remind me he still owns half the house so could come around as much as he wants. The sooner our finances are separated and the house sold the better (my solicitor advised not to sell or buy him out until after the finaancial consent order). The divorce will go through mid April so it's still a while to go until then.

Son did say last night he might block his dad on whatsapp as he is fed up of his messages

Gosh OP that's hard. He is absolutely old enough to have his wishes taken into account but in some ways that makes it harder - it's hard enough for us as mothers to stand up to men like this and asking a young teen to do it is sometimes necessary but incredibly difficult. You do have to help him though as it's too much to put on his shoulders. No matter how scared he is, rejecting an abuser is awful.

My DD refused to stay overnights for several months this year (also 13) due to a combo of her dads manipulation and abusive behaviour plus his constant criticism of the one calm stability she has in her life, me. He was enraged but knew she couldn't be forced and she refused to be drawn on it. He plays the same card all the time, tell your mum you want to, I know you say you don't want to but she's manipulating you etc etc etc.

She's started one night a week again and he's started the pressure again. He pays me well under the minimum and refuses to have proper food in the house, has rarely contributed to school uniforms etc but suddenly has spent a grand on apple equipment over Christmas. She immediately messaged me in a panic as she knows it will be a snipey sinister ploy. Sure enough, the end of the visit he says she can only take tech home if she doubles her visits and gives him access. Anyway we have told her to leave it all there, don't play to it, and if he really follows through we will have to buy things here.

Your son needs to understand that a lot of this is to get at you, not him and I would have no hesitation in telling him so. Once my DD realised that, she became a lot stronger. She is now able to mute him and just nod her head while doing as she wants. I have always agreed to step in when she can't though, and as much as he hates it I do insist.

Would you be able to take your ds out for the evening (just a coffee shop or similar) when your ex comes for midweek contact? Or would you not be happy leaving ex at the house?

your ds does not have to see him, even if he stays at home - he could sit in his room, or in another room with you (homework help?). Not easy, I know, but possible ways around your ds not being left with your ex to be pressured and bullied. My middle dc won’t be left alone with her dad, as he instantly picks on stuff, or raises issues she doesn’t want to talk about. She hates it, and so asks that I am present (that made for a comfortable Christmas morning this year - his Christmas Day, middle dc wanted to spend it with siblings, and I had to hover about like a gooseberry for the morning)

the first thing that needs sorting as best as possible is getting the pressure and bullying moved away from your ds. So, no contact visits if that is what ds wants, and yes, definitely block him on phone if necessary. You are not blocking contact completely - your ex can contact his son through you, as he has proved himself incapable of appropriate communication with his child.

always try to leave a trail - tell (in writing, email or text, your ex what is happening, rather than leaving him to find out and react. He will still react, but you have got your point across first. Also tell your solicitor - mine always wanted to know what was going on, and made notes along the way (5 years and still not actually divorced, although closer to a financial resolution), so as to have the full picture of what is going on.

I have been where you are. It is really hard. Similar type of ex (you might Google ‘covert narcissist’ and see if it rings any bells). Also posted on here at the time, I was pretty desperate.

as pp say, your son needs this pressure removing from him, and quickly. I asked my DS if it would help to thin’ of it as ‘taking a break’ from seeing dad, as he was not coping well. He found it a lot easier to frame it this way, than as ‘stopping contact’, even to himself.

I then told EXH that DS was taking a break for the moment, due to MH issues and needing stability. Took legal advice to ensure I was ok, and they basically laughed - said no court would enforce contact with a 13 year old.

if EXH wants to, he can apply to court, and then find out that contact at 13 cannot be enforced. Your DS will also be able to explain why he doesn’t want to see his dad. But any solicitor he goes to will laugh him out of the door, basically.

so, you and your DS are in control here. He can go out, with you, the evening tha5 his dad turns up. He can block him on social media/phone, again as part of ‘taking a break’. And then re initiate contact if and when he wants - and on his terms.

good luck x

I can really empathise with the situation. I also have a 13 year old who has to deal with the guilt trips from their dad. Again Ex blames me and DC for the deterioration of the relationship.
I facilitate the relationship between the two but it’s a difficult task when Ex is incapable of ever seeing another’s perspective and is a constant victim. It’s a constant worry about the long term effect of such a parent on DC. DC tries not to upset his dad. A child shouldn’t have to moderate themselves because an parent can’t act like a mature adult.
At least when it’s teenagers you can’t be forced to send DC anymore.

Block ex on DS phone. Does DS have any friends he could go to on a Wednesday evening? So he doesn't have to see his dad?

I would prevent him coming round to the house. Speak to your solicitor about legal means to do this as soon as possible. Then change the locks. I'd bloody change the locks and deny access immediately legal or not. He'd have to take you to court over it by which time the divorce will be done

@RinklyRomaine , yes my son is now starting to recognise that a lot of the things his Dad says and does is to try to get back at me. He was like this through our marriage too, would shout at the kids if I had done something he didn't like as he knew it would upset me.

@ElfDragon i don't feel comfortable going out and leaving him in the house but our eldest tends to take himself off to his bedroom and read or do homework when his dad is over to avoid having to spend much time with him. This infuriates his Dad and it is my fault for not forcing soon to sit with him.

Up until now I haven't left a trail of much. I have many messages/emails from him but I trended not to reply as I was so worried about writing the wrong thing and him using it against me in mediation or at court. I will make sure I start emailing /messaging to tell him son does not want to go/why so that there is a proper trail of I need it.

@Itslookinggood, thank you, that's a really helpful way of looking at it. Taking a break is a good way to put it to son and ex. I am sure ex is a narcissist but perhaps not covert.

My solicitor had advised various things I could do but I was worried about what ex would do in return so I had just stuck with things at they were.

Son doesn't really have anyone he could go to that evening to avoid seeing his Dad. He drifted apart from his best friend when they started secondary school and hasn't really made a proper group of friends since.

Any clubs running at school on that evening? If your DS could join one that means he gets home late and cuts the time spent with Dad in half it might help - and also be a chance to make some new friends.

This.

Tell your ex, your eldest is taking a break as a result of all his shouting and pressure and controlling behaviour. Suggest that he lets everything settle down for a few weeks and then try to rebuild the relationship WITHOUT the pressure.

If he isn't willing, let him take you to court. You have the outcome of mediation, and your son's views which will be taken into account. Screen incoming emails, keep any abusive messages.

It's time to make a stand and to protect your son from any more manipulation.

I agree with stopping contact. Take control of the situation. Let ex take you to court. Encourage ex to communicate in writing (text/email) so you have evidence of his behaviour.

can you get your son a new phone number and keep the old one so only your ex has it? That way your son can keep communication from his dad separate to his other use of his phone. Then maybe you can check the phone number his dad has for him once a day or something?

I know much of the accepted advice is to be very neutral but my DD was becoming distressed that things were her fault, if she just tried harder, loved him more, sacrificed herself then he would be happier, @NeedSleepNow. It became clear to me that by always deflecting criticism of him I was validating his complaints and she was taking it on herself. So I started explaining that he loves her, but sometimes dislikes me more, and has trouble separating the two. Once that dawned, the distress lessened significantly.

Definitely keep things in writing. He sounds like he won't be able to help himself and will keep the pressure up so screenshot DS phone as well as keeping your records.

I would tell him the additional pressure on DS is making him LESS keen on contact and that if he is serious about seeing him more, he needs to go back to basics and rebuild trust. That means gentle, no pressure contact at DS pace, out of the house where he has caused trauma previously, without coercion. Maybe scaled back to every third week, and build from there. He won't do it, it's not about seeing the kids, it's about control but keep showing yourself as eminently reasonable and kid focussed. Then if he does push to court, you've protected your son but remained calm. Let him show himself up.

Unfortunately not, other than football club. He did try this but after scoring an own goal and people making some not so nice comments at school the next day he refused to go back.

@RinklyRomaine My son is definitely also starting to think it is all his fault. He often says he knows he is good for nothing, a failure, causes problems for everyone... It breaks my hearing him talk like this. His dad frequently tells him things would be better if he learnt to listen, learnt to pay attention, did this that and the other and it is seriously affecting son's mental health and view of himself. I try to tell Don that his Dad does live him but had a very different approach and parenting style to me and that I don't agree with a lot of what he says and does. Son is also starting to see that a lot of what his Dad says or does is intended to affect me or get back at me.

I will definitely put in writing about gentle, no pressure contact with son. That is a really good way to write it and it will be good to have it in writing.