can i just get some thoughts on that theory, you know the one where, the ex who had treated you badly and let you down justifies this behaviour by becoming a monster, cos they feel guilty

[pirratePiggy]

Becuase i have never understood this. If I felt bad, i think and hope I would do my utmost to make it better for the person I had left and not beat them when they are down.

This behaviour of my ex, the re writing history, etc, WHY??

bloody cheeky git. did u put him up?

i dont know how things degenerate, i tried v hard to keep it nice, but he chose to ignore that

it wasnt the hugest thing in the world, but it just really annoyed me

i had some tools int he kitchen drawer, to save me going out to the garage to get them, couple of screwdrivers, a hammer etc

i needed one last night and sent ds1 to get it, but it had been moved, dd1 told me exh had put them in the garage

his reply to me being pissed off he was rearranging stuff in my home, was not to say sorry, but to tell me the tools were his from before we met, but i was too bitter to realise that

actually most of the tools were from a friend of mine , but i felt compelled to remind him that as he fucked off 2 yrs ago, 14m of it partying and knocking up a young girl in asia, while not supporting our children, and had made no effort before or since to ask for any of it, then i had every right to claim the stuff as mine

i told him he was at my house for the afternoon and he was not to be rummaging about, and if i ever let him down here again i would lock all possible doors to stop him poking his nose into my things

but it took a long time for me to stand up to him like that

anyway i believe you have my email address if you want to chat about this where he cant lurk

Pirate

It's awful that you're feeling frightened of the confrontation. I can totally identify with this. My ex isn't a shouty confrontational person- so my fear doesn't stem from that- It's that he is soooo manipulative and skilled at tying me up in knots, that I always look and feel like a complete loser after a 'conversation'. It isn't a conversation of course, because he makes statements/ask questions but refuses to let me answer with him and thats what I dread.

Part of me pirate, is tempted to tell you to carry on ignoring him/treat him to a dose of his own medicine etc...but I have taken alot of solace in the advice that sky has offered here over the last 2 days and I'm more inclined to advise you to proverbially 'rise above it'- for your own sake, or for the sake of 'wiping the slate clean' and starting again. I say this for your own sanity, because you truly sound drained by it all to be honest.
I realise that essentially, It sounds like I'm advising you to submit to his whims, but this kind of to-ing and fro-ing, with nothing actually being achieved can only be to your detriment, because (speaking from experience)- you can rest assured he isn't losing the sleep you are over this.

Have you thought about perhaps sending him a text. That way you son't have to talk to him, but are showing that you are at least acknowledging his (curt) voicemail?
Something along the lines of: 'got your message- did you want to discuss dd?

Sky

Your post was brilliant....and I honestly appreciate the time you've taken to give me your perspective and of course, excellent advice.
I particuarly like reason No.4- I don't think for a second your humour is on a 'back-order at all....the satire is side-splitting tbh!

I think I'm honestly going to employ as much stocisim as I can and effect an air of indifference- even if I don't feel it inside. There really isn't any other way if I'm honest with myself. It's like you say - you can't win with somone who has no conscience, and so reminding him of what he's done/questioning him/displaying my sadness when he comes over to see DD is pointless. I don't do it every time he comes- but enough to let myself down I should imagine. You're certainly spot on when you say that screaming/crying/questioning only serves the purpose of reassuring him that he did the right thing after all. He actually said once during a recent roaring/crying episode 'look at the state of you, you're a mess'. I almost died, and knew then that it was over, because we simply didn't talk to each other like that.

My ex has this thing wherby he utterly refuses to acknowledge that this woman had any part to play in our breakup. He is of the belief it seems, that cheating is only confined to the physical act, and so wears his halo with pride. Forget the fact that he laid the foundations with her in every other way- no, they didn't do anything physical, so he isn't a cheat- and by default, she had absolutely no part to play in our demise. You should see his reaction when I refer to her when discussing our split- he refuses to have her mentioned as a third party/contributory factor. He says he doesn't care if I think she had a part to play, because they both know the truth, and so feel comfortable being together now, and have clear consciences. For a man who says he doesn't care - why do you think he gets so angry? I don't understand that at all.
It infuriates me that he feels 'safe' behind this 'no phyical contact' stance he maintains - and so hasn't been labelled by his family as a cheat either. I am alone in my convictions.

I've wondered today if I've given the impression on this thread that my ex is vile to me on a daily basis regarding access/money etc. He isn't- but is when I question him on the breakup/ow/anything else he finds difficult to answer. During these times he is a total shit. On all the other times (when I'm behaving, asking nothing of him, expecting nothing and making no demands) he is simply indifferent to me - and if I'm honest, it is this that I find the hardest to swallow. He is so disinterested in me, my life, how I'm adjusting, how I'm coping with DD, the house move- everything. It's frightening how someone can cut you out of their lives like that, how they can remove you from their emotional radar, and 'wipe you out' effectively. He is civil for the most part- but extremely formal and so seeing what I've become to him practically overnight, is painful to say the least. He does of course, have the benefit of a romantic distraction to help him forget me.

I think it was mostly this that I was seeking advice for. I wanted to know if it was best to show that I had 'wiped him out', in much the same way- or to prick his conscience for as long as I could. I realise now, that I must of course treat like with like, regardless of how I feel inside.
As it stands now, he has blanked the texts I sent both her and him a few days ago regarding taking DD into her company so soon. I asked him yesterday about them and he said he hadn't recieved anything from me (lie) and he 'didn't know if she got hers, but will ask her when he sees her next (another lie). I feel that they are playing a silly game with me, that they've come to a mutual conclusion to ignore me....and that makes me feel extremely foolish to say the least- because I don't communicate with them reguarly by any means. He is due to see DD in a few days time and I'll feel even more foolish if I don't ask again about said texts and seek opinions regarding the point I was trying to communicate. I feel if I don't - I am rubbishing the point I was trying to make, just as much as they are, by ignoring it. It also kind of sets a precedent for any future concerns I may have regarding my DD - I will become ' She Who Must Be Ignored'
I realise though, that bringing it up defeats the purpose of my 'new approach'- so what to do?

Oh to fast forward a year...

EleanorRigby's right. This isn't a trait that is exclusive to women. There are men too who are the injured party in break-ups and women that behave badly. And I think Sky's first post is spot on .

I do think though that Sky's comment to ER "but only your partner and she know the whole truth about their relationship and you've most likely only heard one side" is a little unfair. After all, we are also only hearing one side of things from all the posters here.

ER was agreeing with you, Sky. I might have got this wrong but it felt to me like you were being dismissive of anything she had to say just because she's a step-mum, and implying that she has issues about her dp having a child with someone else. We're not all wicked you know and I for one have always been completely cool about dh's past relationship and his dd. It was only ever his x that had issues and caused problems.

Hi Surfermum, good post, some interesting points.
As I said, I agree that women can behave as badly as men. I also said that this is a single parents? board, mostly populated by mothers (rather than fathers) so you will get a woman?s point of view here, not a man?s, not a step-parent?s. Likewise, this is a place where those of us who have been treated badly can safely vent our spleen, so you are likely to read polemics on how crap men are ? or rather the particular man who did this to me or the types of avoidant, useless, selfish men who treat women this way (not all men). It is better that we have a moan here than keep harassing the poor men who left us. Of course what we write seems exaggerated and one-sided but sadly, it?s true.

This is a thread about someone who is trying her best to facilitate her dd and her father seeing each other. She is not the stereotypical bitch, trying to stop the father have contact, that Fathers4Justice claim single mothers are. I wish the world would understand how much pressure single mothers (and single fathers for slightly different reasons) are under. Not only can our lives be hard practically and financially, the worst thing is the emotional side. Picking up the pieces of our broken families and self esteem. We are seen as a drain on society, free-loaders, work-dodgers, careless with our fertility, fallen women, abandoned women (?there must have been a reason why he left her? (- yes, he was selfish)), second-class citizens, second-class families?? Gingerbread and other organisations are doing their best to correct these prejudices but we are, at best, still pitied and, generally, judged. I realise the above embodies a victim mentality which is not useful, attractive or to be recommended but I do think that it is not surprising that we feel a little defensive sometimes. Or that we can't do right for doing wrong.

I stand by my comment to ER that ?only your partner and she know the whole truth about their relationship and you?ve most likely only heard one side?. I don?t think it?s unfair or unrealistic. I agree that we are also only hearing one side of things from all the posters here. Perhaps we could question whether the person who is posting has behaved badly too or is contributing to the way she is being treated? But, nobody?s perfect and when someone is upset you just want to offer comfort and empathy rather than question what part someone played in the demise of their own relationship.

I think I was polite in my response to ER?s posts but I have to admit that I did find her original post offensive in its language describing the mother of her partner?s child. And, taken in the context of this thread, the implication of the post and the crass language could be taken as provocative to other people who have posted on the thread. It seemed an inappropriate post and irrelevant to the topic of the thread which is not about how all fathers who leave their kids and move on to another relationship are bastards (but single mothers and women in general are angels) but rather that some of them (quite a few though) behave really badly in the process and refuse to acknowledge that they have betrayed the mother of their child(ren).

If a mother tries to pursue the matter to get a proper explanation, they deny any blame, try to brainwash the ex-partner and/or get nasty in an attempt to subdue her. For the sake of their convenience they want the mother to just roll over and submissively, passively accept the end of the relationship which for many has come out of the blue. This is not fair and not realistic. Yet, because the power is all on the man?s side, she doesn?t have any choice. It?s no wonder she feels angry and is tempted to retaliate by being awkward. This isn?t a sexist thing though. I?m sure there are cases where a woman leaves her husband for a new lover and I bet the single father, who has no choice, isn?t too happy either.

The OW (?other woman?) or stepmother has been referred to in this thread - admittedly as part of the problem, not the solution ? but the OWomen in question have behaved badly so what do you expect? I don?t have a problem with step-mothers per se, wicked or otherwise, especially if they are innocent parties coming along after the fact. But, if another woman had been involved in the breakup of my relationship with my ex, I would have a problem with her. I would blame my ex partner mostly but I wouldn?t be happy that someone had entered a relationship with someone that they knew was already with someone else. It?s pathetic how many men only leave a relationship once they?ve got someone else lined up. It?s also pathetic, the self-serving lies they tell about why they want out.

My relationship didn?t break up due to an OW. Perhaps from reading my opinionated posts, you can understand that he just decided he didn?t want to be with me any more. Maybe he got bored waiting for me to stop pontificating but I do think the scary responsibility (and illogical surprise) of a planned pregnancy/child also had something to do with it.

Anyway, I think ElenorRigby was being aggressive/defensive, not me, and I don?t feel her post was conducive to constructive debate. I do think it would help if we all had a little bit more of an insight into and tolerance for each other?s viewpoints and, if the people on the step-parenting board would like to have a meet-up with the lone parents, perhaps we could have a pow-wow and thrash out the issues while wrestling in plastic Sumo suits (!)

Pingu
Thanks. I think my first post on this thread was the one that I would like to represent me. Turning the other cheek, and rising above it, is what I aspire to and what I really believe is best for the hurt mother concerned. I continued to post with a more negative flavour though because, in all honesty, I know it is not possible in the initial shock to behave in an exemplary manner, not possible to suppress all feelings of anger at the way you have just been discarded. Anger and disbelief are distinct phases of the grieving process and you have to go through them.

It is very difficult when the person who has caused you so much pain refuses to discuss anything with you, or acts as if nothing has happened, because how can you make sense of something unless you have all the facts? But, the person who has done this to you doesn?t want to admit they are at fault and would like you to shut up and stop questioning as soon as possible - so you are on a hiding to nothing. If they would talk to you, with kindness, you might accept the thing sooner but, for the reasons we have discussed, they won?t. Sooner or later, you have to accept that the thing is over and the sooner you can do this and get on with your life, the better. Yes, for him but also for you.

I think it?s so clear to see from your posts that you are not a nasty, vindictive, person. You sound honest and caring and realistic and sympathetic and intelligent. Not an aggressive person. You want to make the best of this situation and do the right thing but you know you?ve been treated unfairly and it is just too ridiculous for your ex-partner to expect you to pretend otherwise. But he won?t help you with this. I really lost it when it first happened to me and I know that I didn?t behave very well. I didn?t do anything really bad as such but I was very angry and wanted some answers. I don?t see how anyone (human not android) could behave any differently but, all the same, in retrospect, I wish I hadn?t got angry with him because it meant he was able to twist things and use it against me. Use it as an excuse not to take any responsibility for his actions. So I can talk the talk but not walk the walk. All I know is that if I could have done things differently, I would have done because it didn?t achieve anything (rather the opposite) and because it left me feeling even worse and more frustrated. It is best to stay calm, control your temper, maintain your dignity and just let it go. Establish a good working relationship (if possible) so that you can do the best thing for your child.

The emotion has to go somewhere though and the things I have found that have helped with coming to terms with the injustice of it are talking about it to people who care (obvious), taking any anger or aggression out on inanimate objects, holding little cleansing ceremonies (e.g. burning photos or love letters or whatever) and, when your nearest and dearest are fatigued from hearing about it, wallowing in sad music, books, films, etc. of lost or impossible love. ?Snow falling on Cedars? is one film with lots of nice snow and tree scenes in it (obviously). ?House of Flying Daggers? is another film that I found helpful but people have different taste and so you have to find what helps you. Perhaps reading lots of self help books about the science of dysfunctional relationships or sad romance novels. I read ?The L-shaped Room? (story of pregnant single mother in the 50s) recently. It?s a bit ?of its time? ? anachronistic - in parts but quite a good read. I must sound like an obsessive weirdo, and I am a bit, but you?ve gotta do whatever it takes.

I think single mothers who intend never to accept the situation and to do whatever they can to obstruct contact visits or to upset a new stepmother, perhaps one like ElenorRigby has described? I think this is not something I would want to be. It?s not an attractive role to play. The healthiest thing is to get over it as quickly as possible and move on but not so quickly that you?ve suppressed it and not actually grieved the relationship.

I think I?ve probably repeated myself more than a few times and done this to death now and should be moving on myself, both on here and in my life. I?ve had a rant-tastic week posting here (thanks for those who bothered to read) but I think I will quit while I?m behind and put myself back in my cubby hole now, to give the long, headache-inducing diatribes a rest, avoid further controversy and get some housework done. Please take care of yourself. It?s really tough. Coming to terms with this on your own when the guilty part has all the unjust freedom and comfort of a new relationship and you are left holding the baby - !!!!!!!!!!!! It?s a real Biggie. Don?t let anyone try and tell you otherwise. But, if anyone can survive this with their marbles and soul intact, you can.

Best wishes to you Pirate too. I hope you can find a way of dealing with your ex that doesn?t leave you feeling miserable and uncertain all the time. You and dd deserve better, a lot better. Don?t let him bamboozle you.

sky don't you dare be gone to long my lady!!

Thanks Pirate
I can't help being so long-winded but it does take a bit of time to type which is probably why I'm not on here posting all the time.

Following on from posts below, I just popped over to the step-parenting board to do a reccie (not been there before) and also did a search for messages by ElenorRigby and SurferMum (whose names I'm sure I am familiar with generally on Mumsnet). From reading some of the posts, it sounds as if they have had problems with the difficult birth mothers of their dearstepchildren so perhaps I can have some sympathy or see the reason for Elenor's attitude. Is it possible that there is paranoia on both sides?

But, just because your particular DH/P is a good bloke who is being terrorised by a wicked birth mother does not mean that my or other people on this board's exes were also paragons of virtue. Far from it, in some cases. You shouldn't judge another person's situation by your own. That's something we should all remember.

Pirate, in your place, for the time being, I would ask your ex to contact you via a solicitor or mediator. That way everything is clear and above board and business-like. If he really cares about his dd, he will do whatever it takes to sort things out. If all he wants is his own way, and sod you and dd, and blame you for it, then he does not have her best interests at heart and it is not surprising that she has refused to see him.

Bye

it's all in this book in the chapter called 'loves assasin'

Sky

Thanks again Sky...you speal alot of sense m'lady.

Pingu, sorry, I keep say I'm going and then I don't but I re-read your previous message.

Oh to fast forward a year. Too right! That's how it feels. Or beam me up Scottie to a parallel universe where this hasn't happened and won't happen.

He is refusing to acknowledge the texts you sent or to admit that he was unfaithful or to be drawn on any of these issues. Even if he didn't sleep with her before he broke up with you, it is, as you say, just a technicality as he was paving the way all along. To claim any credibility in a story which goes that he left you, cried on her shoulder as a friend and, lo and behold, suddenly, out of the blue, was at that point struck by cupid's arrow and realised she was the one he wanted to be with? How naive does he want you to be?! Being unfaithful is not just about the physical sex act, it is about being unfaithful in your emotions and intentions. Her position is indefensible too. Of course, his family will feel they have to side with them but there is not much integrity in that. It's really just as simple as him not wanting to be in the wrong. He can't defend his position so he is refusing to discuss it at all. Bloody-minded arrogance. To wipe the mother of your child out of your life with no explanation, just because you can get away with it.

He is not showing any interest in you any more because to do so would be hypocritical and he wants to be clear that he is separating himself from you - you are no longer part of his life (even though, due to your dd, you always will be). He is aware that the split and the pain is very fresh and he doesn't want to give you any encouragement to believe that you and he are still close/intimate emotionally. Short-sharp-shock, rip the plaster off in one go policy. He sees this from a man's point of view. The way he is behaving to you is how he would expect you to behave if you had left him. He is protecting himself. When you still love them it is hard to resist trying to draw them into the kind of intimate conversations you used to have. It's a big adjustment to go from intimate to formal all in one go.

I don't want to think like a victim but, for various reasons that I'm sure you can think of yourself, it does seem so much easier for a man to move on in his life than for a woman. Lose-lose situation for us.

You can't make them (your xh/p and his ow) behave in an honourable manner (too late for that anyway) and acknowledge your texts, etc., but I would try and make clear to him that you are the injured and innocent party in this and, if he wants you to move on, it would help you to come to terms with things if he would explain his reasons for leaving you (his real reasons not just some rubbish he's made up to shut you up and to make it easy for him) and if he would treat you with the respect you deserve as the mother of his child. Rather than trying to brainwash you and play silly buggers about disappearing texts.

If he is not sure, perhaps you could point him to the step-parenting thread to read about nightmare birth-mothers who manipulate their ex-husbands, rip them off via the CSA and abuse the family court systems (apparently). Explain that you hope things never get as bad as that between you and him and that it can be avoided with a little consideration on both sides. I'm half-joking I suppose but this would not be a threat but an example of how bad things can get if communication breaks down.

Counsellors like Relate are not there only for people who want to save their relationship. They are also there for people who have accepted it is over but who want to end things in a good way and to lay the foundation for getting on better as parents in the future. Perhaps you could ask him if he would be willing, a little way down the line when things have settled down, to go to something like this with you, while making it clear that it is not a disguised attempt to hold onto him. Explain that it is for your dd's sake, as much as anything. Relate also do mediation for practical matters. If he won't agree to do this, you could go to Relate on your own, just to get some of it off your chest. I believe someone else mentioned this.

From what you say he is not a bad person as such but I assume that you have got all the practicalities in hand re. child maintenance, etc., and that it is fair, rather than what he sees as him being generous. It is best to get this formalised if you can, maybe just between you (rather than being given hand-outs from time to time), not necessarily via the CSA, although that can be one way of going about it.

'When the going get's tough, the tough get going.'
Just because you're stuffed, it doesn't make you a turkey. (wise old bird saying)

Hi Sky

Thanks for coming back .

I think you're right that his refusal to implicate the ow in our demise is a simple case of not wanting to be in the wrong. This is a rather shitty character trait of his that I've always struggled with. I guess I just have to accept that 'I know what I know'- and be (eventually) satisfied with that.
You very much hit the nail on the head when you said that they are expecting me to be extremely naive about the entire thing. She herself has {kindly] told me that their 'friendship' had always upset me, but it doesn't have anything to do with me now. She had alot of conviction in her voice when she imparted these wise words, so it seems she genuinely believes she had no part to play. Pity really...I was also hoping she would have had an 'epihany' of sorts, be consumed with guilt, and back off. Maybe I really am naive {smile]

Do you know- he even text this evening from his weekend break (with her presumably) asking me to pop round to his house on an errand. I replied that I was couldn't (but all the while thinking, what a farking cheek'?) and then let myself down by asking him where he had gone on said break. His reponse? yes you've guessed it....none. I wasn't able to fulfil the requested errand and so served no purpose to him....and the question about the break was too personal for his liking and deserved to be ignored.
To say I felt like an ass afterwards is an understatement.

The playing of silly games re: miraculously disappearing texts etc, is another indicator of how they think I need to be 'dealt with'. To be honest, it is utterly pointless trying to get him to give me any proper explanations about our split. He keeps reading from the same old practised script 'I didn't feel the same/we don't get on/we wouldn't be together if the the baby hadn't come along....you get the message. In fact, his latest standard response ( and I highly suspect the ow has whispered this one in his ear)is 'you have to take some responsibility for this breakup too'..... (?)
When he is reminded that I am indeed the injured party, he gets really annoyed that(quote) 'I'm acting like it's the end of the world'.
It's as you say- acknowledging my pain might somehow mean he would have to accept responsibility for it, and that can't happpen.
He also refuses to be drawn into discussions about how the breakup will affect DD in the future. He has accused me of 'using her' to make my point. Forget the fact that he is denying she exists, in order to make his.

On the whole, any attempts to get him to be honest or help me deal with the breakup in a decent way, have all led to rows. He has actually only devoted around 2 hours of his time to ending the relationship - all broken up into a series of 10 min converstions and texts. (yes, really)
He rarely lasts more than 3/4 mins in to a conversation, before saying 'fuck this', or similar and flouncing out/putting the phone down. In all honesty, it is always me who feels the worst after these pretend conversations, because he decides on every single occasion when they end.
I detest that he has so much control over when I speak and when I don't.

I have thought of attending relate to be honest, because I kind of feel that I'm going through a living bereavement of sorts- however dramatic that may sound. As I said before, I find it very difficult to see what I've become to him, in such a short space of time.
There are of course, positive aspects of his personality and I think it is these I was referring to when I said he wasn't all bad. He has, however been utterly dreadful since the birth of DD and subsequently. He point blank refused to attend Relate before walking out, so I know he wouldn't entertain the idea with me now.
I feel extremely bitter about how my life has changed since the split- not just in the usual ways i.e., freedom etc, but I also lost out financially (long story). I realise that hindsight is a dangerous tool of analysis- but I've spent alot of time hashing over old arguments in my head, you know- trying to make sense of it all, and I realise that I became half of the person I used to be. As I said before, he is an extremely manipulative person and admitting to myself that I became rather weak over the years is pretty hard to swallow.
To add to this - when I see what I've become to him, how I'm treated as little more than a dose of thrush to the pair of them.....it makes me realise I've lost a whole lot more to boot.

Yes, I think something like relate would benefit me. Primarily in terms of putting the relationship to bed, but also in terms of developing coping strategies to deal with any further altercations. DD is only 5 months old, so it's early days in terms of seeing how access/money will pan out. I'll be in Relate til she's 18 if the last 3 months are anything to go by.

Sky, you've been soooo helpful to me...you really have. I'd love to entice you to stick around and bore you with my same old woes, but they're only going to be the same today/tomorrow/blah blah, and so I won't.
If you're ever lurking though, do give me a nod.

hi pingu

Your ex is my ex.

Being told to 'move on', being told 'you shoudl be over it by now, if it were me I would be' (6months later)

It IS a bereavment of sorts, a very cruel one becuase they 'chose' to leave.

Your ex ringing you for an errand, reminds me , last summer my ex rang me, could I go and pick something up he'd had put back in Oxfam. Yes, Oxfam. Oxfam is great don't get me wrong, but a, his gf had put it back, and he'd forgotten to pick it up, and b, this town is about 40 mins rorm theirs, and the item was only a fiver.

I was in shock, becuase when you get this sort of request, like they think its perfectly reasonable, you tend to get lulled in too.

I actually agreed, i was put on the spot. late I intrepidly, texted him and siad no iwasn't going to, that it was up to him, I say intrepidly, becuase it took me about 3 hours to actually come to the realisation that it was 'what I wanted' and that I was perfectly enititled to say no. Also, I was terified of the backlash.

Boy was there backlash. I was told to grow up etc...

Its this feeling of them being able to emotionally cripple you that is so alien, and demoralising.

How are you today?

oh yes, btw, I didn't call him back. I stood firm. He rang last night, again when I was putting dd to bed (does this everytime, in the hopw that he doesn't actually have to speak to me I think)and left a very 'normal' almost downtrodden toned message saying he wanted to hear how dd was and he'd ring 2morro.

I was so relieved (quite pathetically), yet who needs any more shit.

Pirate,

Glad to hear you didn't have any further backlash from ignoring the callsyou know him better than anyone, so i suppose you know best how he needs to be 'handled'. (It's a sad fact, but they do need to be 'handled')

I can totally empathise with being 'duped' into thinking that a situation is entirely normal, and so you are being childish/uncooperative. Some of my friends go stir-crazy with me when they hear some of the outlandish requests that I've fulfilled, and only later realised the absurdity of them.
To say my exp has a 'brass neck' at times, is an understatement. Latest: Can you fly back here on boxing day please as I like to spend the day with DD. Me: 'Ok then'.

I don't know whats wrong with me!!!

When I realise I'm being made a fool of, I like you, work myself up into a state at the propect of telling him, that actually- I don't want to do as he's just asked. This is because the backlash is rarely worth it.
I can't wait for the day when I have extracted myself emotionally from the man, then I won't give a rats arse what he thinks of me.

Woke up the smorning, feeling not quite right, and just wanted to say sorry to ElenorRigby and Surfermum because perhaps it WAS me being defensive yesterday. Maybe I did have a sense of humour failure. (I told you mine was still on back-order!) I must remember to take my tablets....

Big up new and improved, assertive Pirate! .
'Its this feeling of them being able to emotionally cripple you that is so alien, and demoralising.' Yes. There's no reason why they should be able to make us feel like this.

Pingu - your ex does sound like a self-serving git. Treating you like a 'dose of thrush'. Ha-ha . That's exactly it. We, as the innocent (and inconvenient) parties, are treated like snot, or bird-shit, something to be wiped off. Or like an embarassing floating poo that just won't flush (how dare we not flush! ).

He won't attend Relate because, for him, it would be like admitting his guilt. My ex suggested it to me but then backed out. But, if you can afford it, Relate on your own might be helpful. MonkeyTrouser's book looks interesting, too.

Like Pirate, live your life according to what is best for you and dd. He has made it very clear that you are on your own now. Please make sure you are treated fairly, legally and financially. See a solicitor for advice even if there may not be anything they can do. Visit the Citizen's Advice Bureau. I'm sure you have all this in hand.

You will get a lot of comfort from your dd over time. You and she against the world. Christmas-y feeling.

Thanks.
Back to lurking.

Sky

FWIW, I don't think you were being defensive at all yesterday, just puttling across your point as you see it.

Now have vision in my head of floating poo with 'No Surrender' stamped across it!

Adieu

He just rang. Is coming to see dd next sat, so she see's his face so they don't lose that bond. He is going to ask her if she wants to come to his house.
I said thats it tho, she doesn't.

He was all um, er, well I think its important we don't lose our bond, and you know, I don't know whats going on inside her head.

3 yrs too late for sudden realisations. Not to save the relaitonship as a whole but to have saved dd's feelings all these months.

Stupid man.

If his gf is in the car too i won't be surprised. Pisses me off, he hasn't seen her for 5 weeks, and decides now he's bettermake an effort, as its 'officially' his weekend.

I just want to say, I hope dd does go. I am just angry that he's assuming she would want to.

Hi Pirate.

I'm not sure I understand. Will he only see her if she goes to his house? Is he refusing to see her at your house?

Where they meet seems to be the issue. Which suggests to me again that his gf isn't happy about him coming to your house. Territorial. But it should be about what is best for dd, especially given that he hasn't seen her for a while.

I would say it's important that dd doesn't feel that she is in the middle unable to please both of you but, at this point, it should be her prerogative to decide WHERE she spends time with him and whether she wants the gf and her dd to be present or not (I would suggest not to start off with). She can always go to their house on a later occasion when contact with her father has been reestablished.

I understand that it doesn't stop you feeling angry, and it won't heal all the hurt so far, but it does sound a bit more promising.

Sky, I accept your apology, thank you. And I honestly don?t think that ER was trying to be provocative when she posted. I certainly wasn?t. It was just meant to be a ?hey guys, you?re right in what you?re saying ? and it?s not just men who are like that?. We?re all mumsnetters on here, and just because someone?s a step-mum it doesn?t mean they can?t post on lone parent threads (or vice versa) and empathise. They aren?t necessarily posting to be inflammatory or because they have issues. I?d like to think on some threads that because I have been through the mill and we?re in calmer waters now and on good terms with dsd?s mum that I can use my experience to help someone else.

I tend to take people as I find them, I don?t judge them in a certain way because they fall into a category like ?lone parent?. So just because dsd?s mum has been pretty awful to dh and to me in the past, it doesn?t mean I think all lone parents are like her. And just because my dh is a good egg, I still know that some men behave really badly, because I?ve supported RL friends through some bad times. So no need for a sumo suit for me.

Anyway, all's cool in the pool now (I hope .

Read this article in the Mail (yes, sorry Mumsnet intelligentsia but the Grauniad are not so big on 'Celebrity' gossip):

www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/showbiz/showbiznews.html?in_article_id=499072&in_page_id=177 3

Isn't it all so drearily familiar? There should be a 'vomit' emoticon.

I wonder how many people find out about their spouse's infidelity through reading their text messages. What did philanderer's do before mobile phones?

And the way he couldn't resist talking about the OW before his wife found out:
'Brazenly, he told his wife that "the woman with the really cute kid" he had been working with on some projects had been deserted by a South African vet."'

And the way he took his two youngest children to the beach (the ones that are genetically his), effectively to meet her (the OW). Like test-driving the new family.

Why do men act in such an unimaginative and cliched way? And why do they think they will never be found out?

Reading between the lines, he was planning to ship his wife and family off to live abroad while coming back to Devon to work and live with his mistress. That way he would have been able to keep both families without them finding out about each other. Have his cake and eat it too.

It does sound as if the OW was determined to have him. Getting pregnant and then not covering up when the wife phoned.

Hi Surfermum. Thanks and yes, as far as I'm concerned, all's cool in the pool (nice phrase!), although possibly not very helpful cross-post there !

As a single mother, I believe it CAN, sometimes, be difficult to keep a perspective on things. To avoid getting bitter and twisted and ruminating endlessly on the past. But I think part of this is because it is so much easier for non-resident parents (usually the father) to move on, and because society and the media seem so much harder on single mothers than the other people in the equation. It's a very ignominious position to be in - not a career choice!

I don't have any direct experience of step-families, so I?m not really qualified to talk, but I would imagine that, unless all parties are highly evolved human beings, AND unless it was a completely mutual decision to split and both parties are in new relationships (in fact, even if), AND unless there wasn?t an Other Woman in the classic sense (i.e. an affair), then there is a natural opportunity for lots of paranoia and antipathy to develop between the birth mother and the step mother. And this can cause all kinds of problems, not least for the children involved.

I imagine that this, generally, is overcome in time, or that at least a tolerance builds up, but you can understand why it's very upsetting to start off with. And that is sometimes what people talk about on this board, from the birth-mother?s perspective. (And you talk about it on the step-parenting board from your perspective.) Others try and empathise and others lurk because they have been there, done that, got the badge, moved on and are now happier with their lives.

Anyway, I?m glad that you don?t think we are all screaming, deluded harpies and the offer of the Sumo match is still on. It might be fun, you know?