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Lone parents

Use our Single Parent forum to speak to other parents raising a child alone.

can i just get some thoughts on that theory, you know the one where, the ex who had treated you badly and let you down justifies this behaviour by becoming a monster, cos they feel guilty

85 replies

pirratePiggy · 26/11/2007 16:49

Becuase i have never understood this. If I felt bad, i think and hope I would do my utmost to make it better for the person I had left and not beat them when they are down.

This behaviour of my ex, the re writing history, etc, WHY??

OP posts:
skyatnight · 28/11/2007 15:38

Enough with the praise for my warblings (but thanks ). I mostly lurk on this board but come out of the woodwork every few months to add long(-winded) posts on threads about absent fathers or emotional abuse - which are the ishoos which have affected me. I feel that I am sufficiently far down the line now to not need to post about myself but when I see some new walking wounded coming in, shell-shocked, it brings it all back to me. Perhaps this is not healthy. No-one can give you a short-cut to coming to terms with a relationship break-up but when you see someone suffering it's like watching a trapped animal thrashing about and you wish you could free them.

dd's father really messed my head up at the time but he pays reasonable maintenance and leaves us alone now. I feel guilty (irrationally - it is his choice) that he does not have contact with dd but, from what I've read on here, it seems it can be much worse for those people who have to deal with their xp/h on a regular basis, like a wound being perpetually scratched open. You must have to have the patience of a saint.

BoysandBeaches, your brother sounds like an extreme example but he probably really doesn't think that he is doing anything wrong.

PirratePiggy. It is painful to stand by while your child's father messes them around. I feel desperate to fix this problem for my dd but I just have to let things be because, having tried in the past, I know the more I try to sort things out, the more this issue will become part of the control battle. As for his 'new family', as BandBs says: 'The people, in the know, are those very special ones and the rest can have his version of events. Ah, but it does grate.' As long as you know the truth and don't let his version of events drive you insane, you'll be alright.

Pingu - my heart goes out to you. I think few of these men who hurt us are obvious casanovas. I can remember feeling quite motherly to dd's father when I met him, feeling that he was a little fragile and I wanted to look after him. That was the attraction but, in retrospect, I realise he was hard as nails. Your ex's new relationship may work out, who knows, but it doesn't mean that the failure of your relationship was your fault. You feel like killing dead things. I find comfort in sad books and music, etc., but I've heard taking your fists (or even a sharp knife - scary) to pillows can be therapeutic! Or smash a few cheap plates? Big bonfire with a burning effigy? (I'm not kidding.)

DeathBySnooSnoo (it sounds a good way to go!?) - it's depressing about all the so-called 'psycho' exes out there, male and female. It puts me off dating but I suppose there are some good people out there who were really just incompatible with their former spouses. As women and, in most cases, primary caregivers to our children, we are more vulnerable to being left than men are. It's not surprising that we take it badly when the father of our children abandons us. Who wouldn't make some noise? And what man (seeking a clean getaway) wouldn't find this inconvenient. I'm glad you've got a new DH - gives me hope.

I can remember thinking (still think) if he would only say sorry I could accept what happened. But to them it is like a car crash, an accident, and they've been told never to admit liability.

pinguthepenguin · 28/11/2007 17:26

Sky

I think you should go on womens hour or something....honestly! You have the ability to articualte what so many people are feeling.

Your last sentence was particualry poignant....I always feel (because its early days I suppose) that if he would only say sorry, it would go in some way towards closing the wound, but I know its never going to happen.

I know what you mean about men not being obvious casanovas- but my ex really was dreaful around women. I suppose in essence thats what attracted me to him, and perhaps the ow as well. Peple tell me that he can only hold back so much of his true self for a certain time, and that eventually, it will come to the forefront. I dont know....I think that it many ways we were incompatible...and so maybe he has found 'the one'. That said, I'm not prepared at this stage, to put my pain down to 'just one of those things'- because there are decent and honorable ways of doing things, and how he had conducted himself throughout this split has been truly awful.

Its uncanny that you came to realise your ex was as hard as nails under his 'little boy lost' exterior. Me too.

pinguthepenguin · 28/11/2007 17:28

I mean 'articulate'....something I've lost the ability to be these days!

skyatnight · 28/11/2007 23:00

Pingu
I agree about there being a decent and honourable way of doing things. You have to accept when a relationship is over and, like you, I am willing to concede in retrospect that perhaps we weren't the most compatible couple. But when a child is involved, you should be able to expect a proper explanation and some contrition, and to be treated with respect on an ongoing basis. To not be psychologically manipulated and made out to be a bunny boiler.

At the end of the day though, if he is one of these men who wants to twist things and punish you for his bad behaviour, what is important is that you know who you are. I really believe in what SnooSnoo says - the sooner you are able to pretend that you don't give a shit, the sooner things will start to improve. You know you didn't behave badly and you have your integrity even if some other people can't see past his lies. It doesn't feel like much consolation at the time but it does count for something in the long term.

pirratePiggy · 29/11/2007 07:38

I try my best to act sort of aloof almost, it covers up the anger, yet s ometimes it builds up.

Its becuase I know I am not actually 'stating' my truth to him, or bothering to say what I think' to help my dd.

Thats my difficulty, I have depression anyhow, and the past few weeks, as I have realised he really isn't going to do anything more to have a relationship with dd, I have wanted to shout and scream at him, but try to remain unfazed. Yet I know its been making me ill, very down, hence me wanting to come on here and try to understand, well discuss at least the ex's behaviour.

The very fact that he has stipulated he doenst want to discuss anything with me, is annoying. His terms again. He claims I dont answer the phone, when he deigns to ring. In other words once a week if d is luckky. Invariably its at tea time. Lastnight for instance, the phone rang. I was driving. I pulled in and quickley shot back a text aying I was driving (thats why I havent answered the phone).

I later realised that I hadn't heard that beep, to say message had been delivered. I checked my phone, and saw, no it hadn'tconclusionhe had turned his phone off when he hadn't got an answer within 2 mins.

Someone mentioned solicitors. We do have a letter, not a formal agreement, saying what the contacts times are.

I guess if he wants to 'force' dd to see him he will have to go and get a court order? Yet I am still not sure that I have to physically force her to go to his house, TBH, i thik a judge would laugh him out of court, as he hasn't tried to do what's in the best interest of dd.re-quality contact time, in a neutral setting.

In fact, when i said, (to his answer machine-he was sulking) that perhaps if he wouldn't take dd out alone, we needed a third party involved to regain some sort of relationship and trust, his gf rang me and said 'there wasno way he would turn up'

his way or the highway.

WHY is his gf speaking for him!!!! Bloody silly bloody cow.

I have been so neutral, almost wished him well if that was his decision. I think that attitude, the pleasantness, has driven him mad tbh. Cos, as you say, I am such a nice person, it shows there wasn't really alot of reason for him to have left in the first.

hmm this thread, is helping me to set things into place.

OP posts:
pirratePiggy · 29/11/2007 07:39

sory the strike out isn't suposed to be there. should be the conclusion

OP posts:
pinguthepenguin · 29/11/2007 11:35

pirate

This is an awful situation for you...kind of makes me fear that things could always go that way between me and dd's dad....nothing surprises me anymore.
Have you thought about mediation? solicitors letters dont really help you deal witht he emotional aspect of parental contact- whereas mediation might help you iron things out a bit better?
It's sad, because you're worried obviously about the relationship between your dd and her father- many woman (including me) have a 'fear' of being labelled as the obstructive and bitter ex, who has used the child as an outlet for their anger. This often means that we given in to the inflated demands of the absent father in an effort to avoid this stereotype. I think though, as someone has already pointed out (probably that wise old owl sky - that we will be pigeonholed by these men regardless of what we do to facilitate a relationship between them and their children. They simply know its hideously easy to hide behing the veil of the 'psycho ex' excuse.
I feel for you pirate- it may be time to take the approach that Sky has- and let it go. As long as you know you have done everything you can do, and you relay this to your child- it is ultimaately him who will have to answer to her in years to come. This, I know is much easier to say than do.

My ex text yesterday to say he was going away for the weekend and could he 'pop round' to see the baby for an hour before he went. How lovely to be able to live like that. I wanted to scream and roar at the injustice of it, but I didn't bother, as its utterly pointless. Having a child has not impinged on his life or commitments in any shape or form, and I guess I have to live with that.
No surprises for guessing who he's eloping with.

sky- I know you said pretending not to give a shit is the best thing I can do these days ...but could you just clarify for me why you think that is? Its just that, I think that nothing would make my ex happier than to think I was over ot all, as he's desperate to be left in peace to get on with the ow. Having a weekly standoff with me is hindering him, and if he thought he was 'off the hook' , so to speak, he would be delighted. Call me pathetic, but I'm not sure I'm ready to make him feel better just yet.

That said though...I do realise letting him know I do give a shit isn't having any effect either. God, what a mess.

ElenorRigby · 29/11/2007 13:39

As Rhubarb said this type of behaviour comes not just from men, women do behave in equally up appalling manner.
My partners ex is a controlling, lazy, selfish, manipulative moo who most definitely is at the centre of her universe. She drives me nuts with her horribly self serving behaviour!

skyatnight · 29/11/2007 14:56

ElenorRigby ? It does depend on the individuals involved and the particular situation. I?m sure there are some single mothers out there who take some satisfaction in getting a bit of their own back by being awkward with their ex and his new partner. But that?s just something that has to be taken into account when you get together with a man who has had children with someone else. Someone who probably, very reasonably, thought it was a life commitment and is not too happy that she was seen as disposable. I suppose it just depends on your point of view!

PirratePiggy, Pingu
I still feel the way you do. It still really stings that I have no power to make dd's father behave reasonably and respectfully towards me and to her. But what can you do? There is no law you can call on and (with the exception of Daily Mail readers banging on about single parents, benefits and tax payers money) society and the media seem not too bothered that some men abandon their children or wage a war of sneaky underhand attrition (or even blatant aggression) against their former partners.

To get to your question, the reason I think it is better to pretend not to care is because:

  1. 'Living well is the best revenge'. This is a cliche and that's because it's true. Tried and tested over many years by generations before us. In the long run, it works better and is more dignified than cutting the arms off his suits or making a show of yourself, knocking on the ow's door and giving her merry hell. Although these other methods are fun in the short term.

  2. It's better than hitting your head against a brick wall. You've got enough on your plate recovering from the trauma of the split and adjusting to being a single parent and so it's best to conserve your energy.

  3. Trying to control things and getting angry when he messes you around all the time is bad for your health, sooner or later the suppressed and/or impotent anger turns into depression. You'll probably be depressed anyway because the whole thing is traumatic but you don't need it to be worse.

  4. If you drop your anger, it can confuse him and maybe even freak him out. While you're raging at him, all he can think about is: 'How soon can I get away? When is she going to shut up? Doesn't she look ugly when her face is all screwed up, shouting like that? What did I ever see in her? I was right to call it a day, can't wait to see xxxxx (ow) and for her to tell me how wonderful I am...etc., etc..' You get the picture. When you start smiling and being extra reasonable, Stepford-wife-stylee, although he may be relieved (grrrrh!) at first, it soon puts the willies up him. He knows there's something not quite right. He wants to know why you're not reacting the way he expected you to. What do you know that he doesn't? He starts to get paranoid. This can give you some minor satisfaction in the short term at least. It's childish but I think one of the worst things that can happen is when you lose your sense of humour. Another good old phrase is 'revenge is a dish best served cold'. Let him think that you are planning a feast some time in the future and it might cause him some insomnia.

  5. If you pretend you don't care, you never know, he might just start treating you better and this might achieve the best thing for you and your child(ren) even if the whole thing isn't fair or just.

There are probably other reasons for pretending you don't care. Perhaps because the more you pretend, the more it becomes real. It's not possible to do it straight away, it would be unnatural not to vent your feelings initially, but the sooner you can achieve a measure of detachment, the better.

As women, we tend towards wanting to cooperate, to be conciliatory, to talk things through at length, sort things out. We expect other people, including men, to treat us the same way. I suppose I am being sexist but men don't seem to think like that. They, more than us, live in a world of competition, not cooperation.

If something has going wrong, many men just want to shove it under the carpet, get away, pretend it hasn't happened, disassociate themselves with it. They want to avoid conflict, avoid discussing everything which, for them, is just an opportunity for you to rub their nose in it and get the upper hand. If there was something in your relationship which wasn't working, why didn't they discuss it with you? But no, they preferred to avoid the potential conflict, hold a secret grudge against you and then, after this had festered for a while and spoilt your relationship in their head, they prefer to run away and find someone else rather than try and fix what was wrong.

As a woman I want to get to the bottom of a problem and find a solution. The avoidant kind of man sees this as me attempting to make him lose face. He wants an easy life, a path of least resistance, he's got the ow lined up as his soft landing and she hasn't yet started complaining about all his faults and he hasn't got the imagination to realise that she will in due course.

So, in my opinion, raging at a bloke who has done the dirty on you is playing into their hands. They want a reason to justify their leaving you and, in their eyes, you are giving them the reason. The fact that their behaviour was the cause and your behaviour is the effect can be irrelevant to them.

(I realise the above is hugely sexist and I apologise as I am not intending to tar all men with the same brush, or even a significant proportion of them. It's just to get the point across.)

By leaving my xp alone and not hassling him to see dd, I am hoping that he might, of his own accord, eventually decide to do so. He's always said he intends to but it seems to be just to wind me up. I can't make him see her. I could turn up at his local pub with dd (who's the spit of him) and slag him off to all and sundry re. what a rubbish father he is. That would cause him problems but it wouldn't make him see her. Sometimes, I think she might be better off never knowing him but that is her decision, not mine. She is just getting to the age now where she wants to know about him.

I am aware that he has had physical and mental health problems, including losing his job at one point so, despite my anger, I haven't wanted to put pressure on him. I know he got a new job in the summer so, presumably his life is getting back on track. I will leave it up to another year longer and, if he still hasn't got in touch, I might contact him via a mediation service and ask him if he is prepared to meet on neutral ground to discuss dd. If not, that will be it and dd and he can sort something out themselves when she is older if they want to.

I think suggestions of going through solicitors and mediators are good ideas as, when communication has broken down, or deteriorated to slanging matches, involving a 3rd party and neutral ground, formalising the situation, may be the only way of bridging the gap.

In some ways, leaving him alone, I am doing exactly what he wants but there's nothing to be achieved by hassling him. I've not heard from him for nearly a year. Before then, he used to contact me because I think he felt uneasy not knowing what we were doing, not having any control over us. So he called on the pretext of arranging contact with dd, satisfied his curiosity by asking questions about how we were doing, how we were living, and then nothing happened. If I pursued the matter in terms of asking why nothing ever came of his request for a contact visit, he'd start accusing me of harrassing him. So I suppose I am well trained now. He appears to have got away with it. But I think it will slowly eat away at him, not guilt as such (I'm not sure he is capable of that emotion) but you can't just pretend a child doesn't exist and, if you do, you lose something and become vulnerable in some way. It will catch up with him one of these days.

Wow, another Uber-long post.

ElenorRigby · 29/11/2007 15:42

My basic point is bad behaviour is exclusive to either gender.

I didnt want to get into details of my partners breakup from his ex but just to make clear she was not made to feel disposable because she, similarly to pingus situation, was the one end their relationship. My partner and I met about 18 months later, long after their split.

ElenorRigby · 29/11/2007 15:42

My basic point is bad behaviour is NOT exclusive to either gender.

I didnt want to get into details of my partners breakup from his ex but just to make clear she was not made to feel disposable because she, similarly to pingus situation, was the one end their relationship. My partner and I met about 18 months later, long after their split.

skyatnight · 29/11/2007 16:11

Elenor, I understand what you are saying and agree that bad behaviour is not exclusive to either gender. If the mother of your partner's child was the one to end their relationship than one would think that she would be happy about him moving on and not likely to cause problems - so maybe she is just a stupid moo. But only your partner and she know the whole truth about their relationship and you've most likely only heard one side.

I think my other point stands. If you decide to get together with someone who has children from a previous relationship, it is only sensible to realise that it potentially complicates matters, whether you were the reason for the split or whether you came along as an innocent party in the aftermath. (You sound a bit defensive about that - I wasn't jumping to any conclusions.) Stepfamilies are complicated. That isn't to condone or excuse bad behaviour by any of the parties involved.

pirratePiggy · 29/11/2007 16:33

migriane today, switched on my phone this morning, got a text

'communicate with me, you might get something out of it'

now, he did not call back yeterday after I said i was driving ( about 5.30). I came home, left phone on downstairs, gave dd tea, bath, and eventually at about 8.30 switched the phone off as thats 'me' time.

Cheeky bastard. I have been trying to communicate with him for all this time. I have been told be him and his gf, not to speak to him anymore, regarding dd lol. I am happy to not speak to him, and yes I may be being pedantic yet, I get the same if i bother or not.

He won't do mediation.

he's a tosser.

OP posts:
skyatnight · 29/11/2007 17:11

Hi Piggy. Sorry it's getting worse, not better. He does sound like a waste of time. Your poor dd - it sounds like it's really affecting her.

Elenor - thinking about it, where in this thread has anyone suggested that only men behave badly? On the whole, we are talking about specific men and specific situations. And we are mostly single mothers (female), so the other party in what happened was, yes you guessed it, a man (not the same man for all of us, obviously! )

I suppose reading some of the thread titles on this board it might seem that all we do here is slag off men. I suppose we do but, if you read the threads, you'll find it's not as simple as that and, at worst, it's women who have been hurt, and genuinely treated badly, letting off steam. This board is the place to do it. For many of us, it's not as if we have much opportunity to socialise in the real world, always being either at work or stuck at home babysitting. You'll read much worse slurs on men's characters on the Relationships board, if you are really interested. And you can read much worse slurs on women's characters (and football managers) on men's message boards, come to that.

You are coming at this thread from the point of view of an other woman. Not THE ow, because you weren't involved, but from the point of view of the stepmother. That's fine, and maybe your partner's ex is a cow, but you are not a lone parent, and hopefully never will be, so I wouldn't expect you to understand our point of view.

pirratePiggy · 29/11/2007 17:20

sky

hi

The more I ignore him the more petulant he gets, but it's what he wants. By ignoring too, I don't mean I totally igonre him , I just don't get into anything anymore. i treid reasoning, tried saving his relationship with dd, by being kind and saying, ' I nkow its hard ofr you, but please consider what effect its having'

Yes reading your posts, he did just up and leave, turned the 'problem' into , they were all down to me. Yet refused to discuss, and left. A year Before he left I had had to have a termination which totally upset us and it was awful. We never got back ontrack after that. I don't think he ever really found himself. I still think the older he gets the more he doesnt nkow himslef.

tell me the rules again!!!

OP posts:
skyatnight · 29/11/2007 19:09

Huuuuuuuuh (huge sigh). As you said in a previous post, there aren't any foolproof rules. Mores the pity. Nothing has worked for me but I'm not wasting so much energy on it now.

It sounds to me that your ex is very much under the thumb of his gf and that she is quite insecure. I think after a lot of shouting and slagging off has taken place - which is what can happen at the beginning when you are shocked and distraught - it can take a long time for things to get better. If you made him feel guilty (or tried) at the time and he and his gf bolstered and bonded their relationship by spending time cursing you to make themselves feel better about what they'd done. If this is what happened, then he's probably in the process of maintaining a false flounce, on his high horse (she too) in order to pamper her ego and preserve his. They won't allow themselves to be seen to be in the wrong - so, by deduction, you must be.

He and she and her child are now in one team and you and your dd are in the other. He has chosen his team and has to stay loyal to them now. Having slagged you off (because, of course, he is a decent man and wouldn't have left you if you weren't unreasonable ), he can't be seen to be cooperating with you.

You have tried through peaceful means to get him to fulfil his responsibilities to your dd, bent over backwards to be nice, but he now sees this as your idea (rather than something that every self-respecting father should do) and so he doesn't want to be seen to comply with your wishes. The easiest thing he can do to try and salve his conscience, for being so negligent to his dd, is to blame it all on you because you are being 'difficult' and 'harassing' him. Problem solved. Instead of having to go back and forth between 'your' house and 'her' house, and no doubt getting some grief from both of you (for example being questioned by her on his return from you about how it went) he can avoid the whole thing, have an easy life and blame his neglect of dd on you. The gf is happy with that solution too (as long as she can say it is your fault and not her opposing the contact visits).

(I don't know, of course. I can only speculate based on what you have told us.)

If I were you, I'd let it drop for now, for your own health and sanity. It's upsetting not being able to be straightforward and freely express yourself but he sounds like he is quite controlling so he won't listen to you. I would explain to dd that it's not her fault, he does care about her, and he, as the adult, should know better about the best way to deal with this but, for whatever reason, it's all gone a bit wrong and you all need more time to adjust. In the meantime, you and she are a family and can do lots of fun things together...etc.. I'm sure you have already said something like this to her.

It's really sad about the termination. It sounds as if neither of you really recovered from it and your relationship was the casualty. He couldn't handle the emotions so it was easier to walk away?

pirratePiggy · 29/11/2007 22:47

just had late voicemail message on my phone, 'ring me' was all it said.
I am too scared to ring him, I want no argument, i have had enough of hearing his voice.

I am drained, and scared. I can never find the right way to dealwith him onthe phone, it gets messy.

I will not be 'told' by him anymore. I am not going to ring him. is that wrong. I dont know.

OP posts:
lou33 · 29/11/2007 22:49

do not ring him

have nothing to do with him unless really necessary

pirratePiggy · 29/11/2007 22:58

I obv don't know what he wants. I want nothign from him anymore.

if it is to discuss dd, then a I right that he should ring again. He ALWAYS rings at crap times, ie the bedtime bath time.

I am being accused of ignoring him, whe he does the same all the time, and thats over dirct questions, pick up times, and factual things.

He made a song and dance the other week about me texting him about what it is that dd would like for xmas, (as long as no more than £20) which i did. I also asked couldhe let me know if he will be getingit as I would like to know who this item is coming form as its something she eally likes and they are hard to find. Iheard nowt.

Pot kettle black.

Lou can I really do this, break this stupid typical sequence? I feel i am showing anger by not ringing him back, not 'indiference'.

OP posts:
lou33 · 29/11/2007 23:10

you can

exh used to do this, all the time

the only thing i would engage with him would be to do with the kids

anything else i wouldnt , he hated it so would keep going on and on, sometimes hysterical, sometimes harrassing, sometimes just downright nasty, often self pitying and trying to make me feel sorry fro him

if i replied it would just send him a message that he had some kind of say over me still, because he had cajoled me into replying

btw he also used to come on here and try to put over his pov, as the wronged partner, he went on other websites too and said what an awful woman i was and painted me as this heartless bitch who just shattered his world, and lots fell for it, blimey soemtimes he had me doubting myself, but that is how a lot of men work, subtle and mental manipulation

once it sinks in that he has no power over you, and you can choose who you speak to and when, then you will feel much stronger

from an outside view now , your ex seems to be doing the same thing, the trick is to stop letting his actions tie you in knots, then he cant touch you

it will happen

PirateInaPeartree · 29/11/2007 23:16

so if it IS to do with dd, then I am being reasonable in expecting the message to contain the actual reason for the phonecall, not just 'ring me'??

he owes me money, and if it is to do with this I would expect the same?

I need that money, but I am NOT ringing him back to ask if its about that.

lou33 · 29/11/2007 23:23

yes

he should have the courtesy to say why he wants you to call, imo

and if he says it is about dd, but it turns out not to be, hang up

lou33 · 29/11/2007 23:24

sam applies to the money

dont let a conversation about one thing degenerate into something else, if that happens just tell him you are not discussing anything else with him and end teh call

lou33 · 29/11/2007 23:26

says the woman who last night got so pissed off with her exh she sent him a text that said , iirc correctly " fuck you"

but it was because he had been down here and moved stuff of mine about and i couldnt find it

was fuming he had been poking about in my stuff, so i asked him to please refrain from going through my shit, and he got the arse, so i had to put him straight

PirateInaPeartree · 29/11/2007 23:26

so, ans=d sorry if am being a bit wimpy and cautious here. I wait for him to ring again, if it's so important?

god how did it ever come to this.