Advice needed. Am I acting wrong or illegally?

[Shamin]

Hi everyone

I am looking for some advice and guidance on whether I am doing the right or wrong thing. The issue is regarding agreeing fair access to my children with their father.

I have been divorced from my ex husband for 7 years, it was an unhappy mentally abusive relationship which also included some adultery from my ex. I have never regretted leaving him. Together we have a 10 year old daughter and boy of 8 who has Autism.

No court order was needed as the father was active in their lives from the moment I left and I wanted him in their lives as much as possible. The initial enthusiasm of seeing the kids waned as he started dating although as a relationship ended he would become more interested in seeing them again.

In general he saw the children every other weekend, a week in the summer and would see them once during the week. Between relationships we would talk and he would come in when picking up or dropping the kids off. This changed 2 years ago when he abruptly stopped coming to the door,even talking to me and seeing them during the week. So he only saw them every other weekend which I didn’t feel was enough and I hoped he would start seeing them more not less. I soon found out from my daughter he was in a relationship and this partner had moved in. I was soon told he would not being seeing the kids during the holidays because he wanted to take his partner away alone. He had also said this relationship came first in his life and I should not be surprised as we were not co parenting. For the record I am happy he is in a relationship. I too am now in a very loving relationship.

The arrangement was always subject to me agreeing the weekends with him which he could change at a moments notice and if I couldn’t agree with his dates he simply wouldn’t see the kids. This did not happen often but the threat was there so I always had to agree. He also used a lack of formal agreement against me late in 2019 when he refused to see the kids until I took them swimming lessons which he said was an example of me being a bad mum (I get that a lot). He didn’t see them for 5 weeks until I managed to find a club. He initially only wanted to only take our daughter from now on as our son was not engaging with him. I fought this and he gave in.

It was after this incident, and with discussions with my partner I started seeing the vulnerable position I am in and that the agreement didn’t seem fair to me it the children. Things then really changed with the onset of Covid - where from the very beginning my partner said he would not see the children because he was in contact with his sister, a nurse who is high risk, meaning he was also high risk so could not see them. I pointed out that he was allowed to see his kids under protocol rules but not his sister and it wasn’t right he was refusing to see the kids because of his actions which were not allowed. I was accused of being difficult. My partner decided to quit his job (he works as a locus) and move in to help me with the kids during the crisis and it was a god send. My ex partner contacted the kids twice during the first 7 weeks of lockdown by phone.

At this point I decided this wasn’t acceptable and that the pandemic and our agreement was used to relieve himself of his parental duties. Many texts were exchanged over this with much abuse hurled my way. At around week 7 of lockdown I sent a formal letter to him saying that after lockdown our agreement needed to change and made a proposal to him which we would both sign (not legally binding I know) to ensure regular access and increased access as I did feel he should be in their lives more. The proposal was rejected and my partner said he will only see them every other weekend as before as this is all he can afford and that is it.

I then sent a second letter explaining that because we cannot agree to access with the children he will need to apply for mediation and or seek a court order so we can resolve the issue fairly. He refused and said he will see them when the kids are older if I didn’t accept his terms - which I didn’t. I have since received 3 anonymous calls to social devices accusing me of being neglectful to my kids, starving them and that my partner is abusing my son. All disturbing lies. I have also had calls from financial support as they have been informed my partner lives with us - he moved out after lockdown restrictions lifted.

So we are now 6 months on, I have received much abuse and so do not have any contact with my ex unless urgent and he calls the house every week or two - having conversations with my daughter (he never speaks to my son saying he can’t have a conversation with him on the phone). The conversations he does have are full of lies about me and my partner. The kids are fine, infact they have bonded with my new partner and independently call him papa and when I they seem to miss him more than their dad when he isn’t here. I do find that saddening.

Today, I received an abusive email saying that what I’m doing is illegal, I have no right to stop him seeing the kids, I am abusing them and he will go to court to fight for full custody (I’m 99% certain he won’t). The truth is I’m not stopping him from seeing the kids so much as him needing to seek mediation and or court order so that legally agreed access to see them. I do want him in their lives but I’d rather him not be in at all if it means I’m forced to abide by his terms. By going to mediation/court I hoped fairer more regular and consistent terms could be agreed so he sees them more. Yet part of me is increasingly uncomfortable that he hasn’t seen them and that I could be acting illegally by stopping access until he gets a court order which I wouldn’t contest.

I don't think you can stop him from seeing them just because he is being difficult. Is there a reason you haven't instigated mediation yourself? I have just been through something very similar to you (in fact the whole situation is pretty similar).

To be clear, you are stopping him seeing them. Going to court isn't an overnight thing. It can take many months. I believe for us it took 5-6 months in total and that was with us coming to an early mutual agreement.

The court will also not force contact. If he requests once a month access and you say that's not enough, then tough, once a month is better than nothing and therefore better for DC.

That doesn't mean what he is doing is acceptable but you need to rethink your whole approach. Him having the children isn't a problem, the amount of time he has them for isn't a problem, the frequency of visits isn't a problem. The problem is a lack of proper planning and his language towards you and him speaking negatively about you to the children.

The court order will help with at least the schedule. However, if you want a court order, and you don't want to stop contact then apply for it and mediation yourself. That's the courteous thing to do at least. You basically just told him he needs to have the kids more or not at all and if he wants to see them he has to go to court.

It doesn't sound like that's what you meant but this isn't going to be civil anytime soon the way this has gone. The courts also won't like you stopping contact unless there's a safeguarding concern.

You'll probably get varied responses on this, but I would try and put out the flames a little, put in the application to mediation/court and in the meantime return to the previous schedule and put in writing that you need a set of dates in advance so that you can plan your time. He has to have both children an equal amount and he has to be respectful of you.

I am not a lawyer though so take any legal things with a grain of salt.

He sounds like he wants to only see his children on his terms regardless what is in their best interests. Offer mediation, if he refuses then he will have to take you to court which sounds unlikely

no really helpful advice except stop engaging with him.

block him on everything if he no longer sees them (so you dont need to get in contact with him)!

ignore him, ignore the threats. If anything send him an email address for you to communicate with him only. then thats it

also block ALL his family andfriends on facebook etc

FatherB

Thank you for the reply. It is fiddly as I am aware that I have essentially said you can’t see the kids until you get mediation and or a court order.

I did ask about mediation but he refused it so the next step is court. This is all very new to me but I fear it would cost money and he’d refuse it anyway. He is now saying he will seek full custody but these are threats - he has done everything he can to see them less.

My intention is not to stop him seeing his kids but for an actual legal plan is in place to ensure he sees them regularly, cannot change plans when he wishes and to be involved more.

After receiving calls from social services they were happy the calls were malicious and said that I could deny access because no court order was in place and that it would be on him to do this. I fully expected him to do this but he hasn’t.

My partner had stayed out of things until my ex dragged him into it with shocking accusations of abusing my son. He is becoming frustrated that my ex gets to live the child free life with his new partner whilst we can’t even take me away for a weekend. He is saying if legal to not allow my ex to get his way.

Perhaps I should seek free legal advice on what I can and can’t do - I certainly do not wish to act illegally. Your post gave me much to consider. Thank you.

I have to questiom why you want the kids more than he wants.

Court will not make him see them more.

I don't agree you are right to stop contact as it isn't enough

I would off eow but if he misses waits till next contact so you can plan your life.

Afternoonapping

I asked if he would agree to mediation and he refused. That’s when I said in order to resolve this he would need to seek a court order. I sort of bluffed thinking he would do this - that he didn’t does mean if I back down I’ll be where I was which was me at his mercy.

I did say he could take them for a weekend but that he would need to pick them up (I normally dropped them off on a Friday to his then he dropped them off on Sunday). He refused saying I must drop them off. I have refused access until he goes to court since.

In view of what you said I’ll seek legal advice if free!

Carly

I have now got him to email contact as I couldn’t cope with the messages.

I am still amazed I’m doing this as I was pretty much a dogs body and puppet when with him and for years after felt worthless. Since starting my new relationship I have become increasingly more confident and now daring to try and make things a bit more fair.

Mediation isn’t a good idea where there’s a history of abuse.
You ARE stopping him from seeing them at the moment, it’s not illegal but it’s not justified either.
Neither you nor the courts can force him to have them more than he wants. As the resident parent you’re obliged to make the children available but he doesn’t have to have them.
Your boyfriend chose to date someone who’s the resident parent of young children, he’s being ridiculous complaining you can’t send them to your ex so you can have a weekend away. Your ex has accused him of abusing your son, does he really think making your kids see more of someone who did that is wise? Can’t you get a sitter if you want childfree time?

Whatever you think of your ex, he’s the children’s father. They absolutely shouldn’t be calling someone you describe as your “new boyfriend” who you don’t live with “papa”. That’s shocking.

The issue was the fact he could and had changed dates he would have them when he wanted and I had no recourse. He had done this a few times, most recently on my 40th birthday when I was about to go away with my partner and he called to say he couldn’t take the kids an hour before I was due to drop them off. He had refused to see the kids until I agreed to take them for swimming lessons and when he refused to see them at the start of the pandemic I just had enough and wanted something solid in place so he could not pick and choose.

As my new relationship has developed this has also motivated me to get things better arranged so I can more confidently plan time with him (he lives 3 hours away and usually I would go to see him for the weekend as a change of scenery is nice after over 6 years quite literally in my house alone. Plus my family are Muslim and a man coming to see me by them or the community won’t go down well!)

My hope was he would seek a court order to see them and a more fair agreement would then be made. Your response suggests otherwise. Again, this gives me a lot to think about.

This was why I posted, I need people’s views as I don’t know what to do or what’s right or wrong.

This is all so helpful to me.

The last reply was to starlightstarbright 1

AnnelovesGilbert

I cannot remain in a state where my ex calls the shots. Where he can decide when he wants to see or not or change or rearrange access at the drop of a hat? How is that justified to me? I’ve been nothing but fair to my ex despite everything and whilst I am in essence stopping access it was/is with the intention of a more formal and regular plan to be put in place.

I’ve been with my partner almost 21 months - I still class it as new as it feels that way. He stayed with us almost 5 months day in day out and my daughter started calling him papa. My partner made it clear he was not her dad and she has one - she said she knows he wasn’t daddy that’s why he is papa. She refuses to call him anything else. They have developed a bond over those 5 months I don’t think it is shocking.

Also, my partner hasn’t complained about not being able to take me away as such but that it isn’t right that I have to jump to my ex’s tune and change plans sometimes on the very day such as my 40th. He has been silent and always tried to ensure he doesn’t encroach on the fathers standing with the kids and has only got involved after my ex made malicious anonymous calls to social services about him and me. As well as increasing abuse to me. All which are absolute lies. My ex denies it all of course.

My partner doesn’t feel things are fair to me and is trying to support me. My ex is very disparaging towards him and calls him a nobody but he has done far more for my kids than my ex ever has. And he does it all the time telling them how much their dad loves them, never once mentioning what he is really saying or doing.

Yeah just to confirm I don't think you are doing anything illegal or outright wrong.

It's just not right either and won't necessarily look good if things do go to court. It depends on the judge and other factors too though.

I genuinely think you need to just step back, switch off emotions as much as possible and apply to court but in the meantime do everything to the letter. When you agree to a date for ex to have the kids, that's the date, don't change it.

If he doesn't show up then yeah that sucks but you can use that against him in court.

If he genuinely doesn't care, he might not even show up to court.

You can't get a judge to make him be a good dad.

I'm in a similar situation. I took legal advice and was told that people go to court to get contact not reduce it and that if I wanted him to see the kids more, to do what you've done and make him fight for them. I didn't do that, and two years on he's basically not seeing them at all. He saw them in December for a couple of hours, then on Father's Day for less than an hour. He lives 45mins away, drives a reliable car and doesn't work weekends. The truth is that "new wife" is child free and the children are an inconvenience to her and he goes along with it.

It's absolutely heartbreaking as our children were adopted by us, have SEN and a background of trauma, abuse and rejection to cope with already. He's exacerbating this and our oldest has severe MH issues which are made much worse by his behaviour.

Basically in your situation, if he gave a shit he'd be seeing them somehow. It's so upsetting how cruel and selfish these men can be

Others have commented on the contact issue, correctly. But did you really mean your current partner gave up work and moved in with you? Please tell me he's working and paying his way now.

"My partner decided to quit his job (he works as a locus) and move in to help me with the kids during the crisis and it was a god send.

He stayed with us almost 5 months day in day out and my daughter started calling him papa.

I have also had calls from financial support as they have been informed my partner lives with us - he moved out after lockdown restrictions lifted."

I don't understand why you imply that it was malicious to report that you are living with your partner - you lived together for 5 months. You should have reported that change in circumstances yourself.

I also agree with others that not seeing them enough is not a reason to withhold contact. You should be going to court to get the arrangement fixed.

Its hard to unpick- some of this is about he wanting to control you.

My ex was abusive. I stopped trying to be the dad my Ds deserved.

You have to ignore his bullshit.

I am not taking the kids till you have enrolled them in swimming lessons

Your next contact is ..... let me know if you are collecting them...

I said I am not taking them till you enrolled in swim lessons

Either repeat first statement or ignore.

You aren’t co parenting . The term applies 2 two parents working together.

A court order will make you have to make the children available - not enforce him to have them. He will remain unreliable with a court order in place

Lougle.

He stayed almost by default as he was visiting the week lockdown started. He had a contract scheduled to start and decided to cancel it and stay with me to help as I was scared at the time it broke and I had no support. He didn’t move in so much as stayed during lockdown. He did the shopping enabling me to avoid taking my son out to the shops ( he touches and licks things etc as he has autism) and played with them which allowed me to do work from home. He actually pretty much shouldered the financial burden whilst here.

I did report the change when they called and they did not see it as a change of circumstances due to the uniqueness of the period he stayed here for. Technically him leaving to drive could have been seen as an unessecary journey.

Not withstanding the calls saying my son was being abused and my kids not fed, neglected, had head lice etc the maliciousness was he said my partner had moved in permanently which wasn’t true, he stayed to help because my ex was being abusive at the time and said he wasn’t taking the kids and my ex actually did not know he had decided to stay.

Titchy

He cancelled a contract he was about to start. He pretty much covered the entire shopping bill during lockdown. He has covered most of the expenses during the summer hols too.

Gettingfedupagain

I’m really saddened to read your post. It seems our experiences and situation are similar.

What you describe is how I approached this. If he cares then all he do needed to do is take the available options to see them. Get something solid in place which protects them and me because if he breaks the court order he will be acting illegally. If he doesn’t want to do mediation or go to court but still see them when he wishes am I really expected to live like this? I had enough of it and wanted to stop this for my children’s sake and for mine.

I never allowed anyone to come between him and his kids - my family told me to stop him from the beginning and are giving me a lot of told you so’s but I put what he did to me to the side because when we were together he was quite a good dad. And whilst it might not be the impression I’m giving I never ran him down to anyone and I do want him seeing his kids. But the kids are getting older and they are sending things such as them being second best to his partner. They do have the child free life travelling all over the place etc and I know that she refuses to be alone with the kids - this has been one of the reasons arrangements would suddenly change if my ex had to work a Saturday she wouldn’t care for them. I don’t know her so can’t comment - she is very young - 23 so don’t blame her for wanting to be more free. But she knew my ex has kids.

Anyway. Good luck with your situation.

I can't add anything others haven't already said. Court will not make him See the kids. You could have it In a court order but he can choose not to follow it and their are no consequences.

You need to ignore all the stuff he says. Offer every other weekend contact. He picks up at 6pm Friday. If he is a no show. Do not make an issue about it. His next contact is in 2 weeks time.

My ex has gone months without any contact for him with the children. It is his loss. I can't make him. Better parent. All I am do is manage my end of the situation.

Don't factor him in to your plans. Arrange other childcare if u have plans. Or ensure he doesn't know your arrangements. It is none of his business take back some control of the situation.

Unicornsarereal

It is my understanding that it is illegal not to comply with the court order. If he d

Sorry. My phone is going a bit nuts and posting for me.

It was my belief that a court order is a legal order and if not adhered to will be quite serious. The point is to get things agreed so life is easier to organise and also if my ex wants access he will get more not less as mandated by the court. Having seen a few, such as my partners sis whose ex didn’t see his kids in 5 years. He sought a court order and got one (which was contested) and he got every other weekend and one evening per week plus one week at Easter and Christmas plus 2 weeks in the summer. I’d love my ex to have some holiday time with them. But if I can even just get every other weekend down legally agreed by the court I’d be happy.

I had asked him to start picking the kids up on his weekend but he refuses and makes me drop them off. When I refused this he refused to see them.

Once again I am sorry to hear your ex isn’t helping you. Being a single mum is hard and I just can’t understand how anyone wouldn’t want to see their kids. You are doing amazing!

@Shamin

Sorry. My phone is going a bit nuts and posting for me.

It was my belief that a court order is a legal order and if not adhered to will be quite serious. The point is to get things agreed so life is easier to organise and also if my ex wants access he will get more not less as mandated by the court. Having seen a few, such as my partners sis whose ex didn’t see his kids in 5 years. He sought a court order and got one (which was contested) and he got every other weekend and one evening per week plus one week at Easter and Christmas plus 2 weeks in the summer. I’d love my ex to have some holiday time with them. But if I can even just get every other weekend down legally agreed by the court I’d be happy.

I had asked him to start picking the kids up on his weekend but he refuses and makes me drop them off. When I refused this he refused to see them.

Once again I am sorry to hear your ex isn’t helping you. Being a single mum is hard and I just can’t understand how anyone wouldn’t want to see their kids. You are doing amazing!

I think you're misunderstanding court orders a little bit and equating other court orders to your situation incorrectly.

So your partners sisters situation is different because he fought for that contact time, if your ex doesn't want extra contact time he won't be fighting for it. If he goes to court and says he wants DC EOW and that's what you have been doing but you stopped contact because you wanted him to have more time, that's not going to look good.

In regards to him not adhering to the court order, the only legal implications are basically to you not releasing DC on days you have agreed to OR him not returning DC when he's supposed to. If he doesn't show up consistently you can apply to change the court order so that he has less schedules contact time, and basically that's it. He can also file to change the court order to ask for more time, but if he's consistently not showing up for scheduled visits then that's not going to happen.

The truth is if it went to court and was agreed as EOW, he could still legally see the kids once a year.

What the court order will do, is protect you with regards to him returning kids on time, set up a schedule that you can stick to, dictate where the handover point is and how much travelling each parent will do and how much holiday time each parent will have.

You should 100% get a court order in this situation, but you shouldn't stop contact in the meantime.

Anyway, it sounds a little bit like you've already made your decision so I wish you the best of luck! Hope everything goes well.

FatherB

That’s an interesting and now obvious point. If he fought for a court order for access I assumed the judge would decide fair access agreed between us. If my ex demanded only every other weekend with no holidays as he currently does I would contest it and my thinking was the judge would favour more contact with their father for the benefit of the kids. I hadn’t considered if he refuses more than every other weekend the judge would agree to this.

I’ve a big hmmmnnnnn going on right now.

The current situation was primarily to ensure he was legally bound to see them on certain dates rather than where he can change it at a moments notice and or just refuse to take them until I agree to things he wants as he currently can and does. To a lesser but still important degree I would like him to see the kids more for their benefit as I very much value the role of a father. It’d be nice to think that he might take his kids away even just once (he goes away all over the world with his partner) unlike him I cant afford to take them abroad and although this might sound more selfish than it is it’d be nice if I could get away for even just a long weekend alone with my partner once in a while.

Again this was very helpful and I’m definitely going to reconsider my approach to things as I realise my ex will never agree to more than every other weekend and if the courts wouldn’t demand he sees them more despite him seeking the court order then this changes a lot.

The only option would be for me to seek a court order, which may be some expense otherwise if I allowed access he will not have any need to apply for one himself. Just to reiterate, he turned down mediation and as if 2 days ago said he was seeking full custody (I’m certain this is just a threat - he’d never ever want the kids full time - but he says he had legal advice which concluded I was acting illegally).

Thank you.